Resources Tirrell/Thomas Death Star

[nervoustrig]

wait till it is all "AI "no human intervention , what is left to brag about then ?

" I shot a perfect 250 and 250 X'x last night " the computer waited till no wind for each shot , i woke up this morning and it was all done " WOW what a night !!!

If and when that time comes, the scoring rings will shrink or the distance will grow or something else to keep it competitive. These sorts of endeavors will always evolve to provide some means of rank-ordering the participants, identifying the very best, etc.

 

[beerthief]

HMMMM ? the old John Henry , beat the machine story comes to mind

 

[Shadowalker]

Thank you Mike for explaining what EBR really is....Facts are superior accuracy is achieved in details that few understand.
"A multi layer exercise in absolute perfection."

 

[thomasair]

The ebr format alone makes it pretendrest. It’s about packing in bodies and simulating a real match for people that don’t know the difference. One card 100y pellet matches are a joke. By definition a match is not one card. One card matches of any kind are a joke. Even 3 cards is lame for an alleged “Big” match. The 50y is even more of a joke. Assigned benches and time slots determined by the staff ….shooting all your cards at once on a range known for massive shooter disparity via bench position. Just no time at this “big” match to do it right. Gotta pack in the other carnival games. The fact that it doesn’t seem to bother anyone is more proof that it’s just a hyped up fun shoot. No benchrest shooter in his right mind would support that…and for the most part they don’t.

Next week at the fair….thousands of people will line up for their turn to shoot out the red star. I guess that’s makes it an even bigger “benchrest “ match than EBR by simpleton standards.

Call it what it is. It’s a fun shoot. It sure as hell isn’t a benchrest match.

Mike

 

[Shadowalker]

The ebr format alone makes it pretendrest. It’s about packing in bodies and simulating a real match for people that don’t know the difference. One card 100y pellet matches are a joke. By definition a match is not one card. One card matches of any kind are a joke. Even 3 cards is lame for an alleged “Big” match. The 50y is even more of a joke. Assigned benches and time slots determined by the staff ….shooting all your cards at once on a range known for massive shooter disparity via bench position. Just no time at this “big” match to do it right. Gotta pack in the other carnival games. The fact that it doesn’t seem to bother anyone is more proof that it’s just a hyped up fun shoot. No benchrest shooter in his right mind would support that…and for the most part they don’t.

Next week at the fair….thousands of people will line up for their turn to shoot out the red star. I guess that’s makes it an even bigger “benchrest “ match than EBR by simpleton standards.

Call it what it is. It’s a fun shoot. It sure as hell isn’t a benchrest match.

Mike

 

[Joef]

Thank you Mike for explaining what EBR really is....Facts are superior accuracy is achieved in details that few understand.
"A multi layer exercise in absolute perfection."

Hi Frank,
Been awhile, hope all is good. It's a very small group that really appreciate and understand which is fine. I don't feel anyone is putting down EBR and RMAC, just never shot one card to show the winner of a BR match.

 

[Shadowalker]

Guns of the Deathstar type which I built enabled me to take this gun/ machine inside in a controlled environment and truly evaluate and debunk a number of accuracy theorys to include pellets, bedding material, shooting style, triggers, telescopes, rests, repeatability, actions, tuners, muzzle breaks, barrel tension, air pressure, seating depth and barrels. Once these items of speculation are resolved with positive visual data one can go to war knowing it's with the best equipment available.
You simply can't hold off .065 with a gun that shoots .124 no matter how well you read the wind.

 

[gh6airgunner]

Fun thread! Personally I would call the N50 Machine Rest as it just doesn't seem right to not be in control of the rifle. I think it is much more pure to use a bipod and bag and call it good. In fact I wouldn't be apposed to bipod only.

I do agree that only one finals card is weak and I would think that 6+ cards would be a better way to find the best shooter. I think shooting 2 times a day over a few days, from many spots on the range would produce the best shooter. Seated or prone for position would be great as well.

But machine rest is just like operating a CNC. Once programmed you just punch go and get a result. Maybe that's why you have to shoot so many cards is you have to do that just to wait for the last unknown error to happen for a winner?

Glenn

 

[Joef]

C’mon Joe. How about no one except one here on AGN is putting it down. He’s entitled to denigrate and slam however he wants, but please, let’s not say no one is putting it down when we see:

Pretenderest
Carnival
Simpleton
Hyped up fun shoot
Joke
Simulated real match
Etc.

No worries, I understand some “regulation” BR guys look down their noses at RMAC/EBR. I’ve shot at your range a couple times and the N50 is fun. Great range and a fun time.
There are guys right now at the Worlds that are doing quite well that also shoot RMAC and EBR. They like both. WRABF is REAL benchrest, correct?

Mike, It just is what it is.

 

[nomojo65]

I commented on the unlimited Railgun because they intrigue me, and also the 25m, N50 “sanctioned” Benchrest matches. The multiple classes within each discipline also is unique and allows for more competition within that discipline.

I bring the definition of Benchrest over from center fire to airguns and this started in About 2002 with airguns, so I used alot of the same equipment, rests, bags, flags etc. the big difference was I shot group matches not for score matches.

When I see the once a year sponsored not sanctioned event to me it’s not a true BR competition! While fun and entertaining for sure. I have attended one and hopefully another in a few weeks, I do find it neat to see and maybe meet or even shoot next to the YouTube entertainers, let’s face it they are only promoting a manufacturer a retailer a product line that may or they hope will cover expenses or give shooing products and equipment to them or even better make a substantial living off YouTube. And honestly nothing wrong with any of that, but don’t confuse that with true aggregate Benchrest competition.

 

[thomasair]

It’s time to call a spade a spade.

 

[thomasair]

Guns of the Deathstar type which I built enabled me to take this gun/ machine inside in a controlled environment and truly evaluate and debunk a number of accuracy theorys to include pellets, bedding material, shooting style, triggers, telescopes, rests, repeatability, actions, tuners, muzzle breaks, barrel tension, air pressure, seating depth and barrels. Once these items of speculation are resolved with positive visual data one can go to war knowing it's with the best equipment available.
You simply can't hold off .065 with a gun that shoots .124 no matter how well you read the wind.

Guys that backslap each other for shooting a 10 with equipment that’s only capable of averaging a 9 is something to see. God bless ‘em .

 

[Franklink]

Guys that backslap each other for shooting a 10 with equipment that’s only capable of averaging a 9 is something to see. God bless ‘em .

Reading through this makes me realize the benchrest crowd is diagnosably insane in their pursuit of perfection. And from the general feel I'm getting from comments on the "true" benchrest side, they'd be proud to tell you they're absolutely nuts about achieving perfect 250s.

BUT (and it's a big BUT) the "true" benchresters are conveniently dismissing the fact that a human is operating the gun (and I mean PHYSICALLY) in the EBR/RMAC type matches.

And I'm not trying to detract from results the benchrest guys get with all their contraptions to isolate the human factor, but the flip side of that coin is that holding the gun increases the difficulty of shooting "tens" by inserting the human factor. Heartbeats, nerves, breathing, all at play when a guy is actually shooting a gun, versus pushing the go button on a contraption.

So I agree that RMAC/EBR might not fit the definition that a benchrest purist has created for themselves, and that they're simply different types of shooting competitions.

And to add fuel to the fire...yes I understand the statistics of the argument of shooting more than one "card".....but how come we don't shoot through a field target course 4 times and take the aggregate score to determine the winner? Yes it would minimize "chance" and be a better process for determining the shooter with the greatest ability for consistency, but it would also hurt participants with less stamina. And it would be a LONG day for some of the more experienced participants.

 

[thomasair]

Cole…big field target matches shoot 3 days over 3 courses. GP’s are over 2 days and 2 courses. It’s not very often that the same shooter wins each day. They don’t recognize the shooter that had a good match on Friday but blew it on Saturday and Sunday. But as you know…FT isn’t BR.

I don’t mind others enjoying whatever they want to do…but don’t call it benchrest if it’s not. That name has already been taken for a very specific sport that’s been going on a really, really long time. Simply shooting from a bench doesn’t mean you’re shooting benchrest.

Mike

 

[Solo1]

It’s time to call a spade a spade.

Real benchrest seems to me should be called gunsmiths proving their worth. It seems to me that is what is going on

 

[SpiralGroove]

Even though I have very little Benchrest knowledge, statistically there's certainly more luck involved in winning RMAC or EBR.
However, that's part of the Fun - anything can happen -> Plus it's really a big Marketing event.

- - More randomness / less precision - Have we ever seen a repeat winner?

 

[nomojo65]

I find it interesting that “fanatic/insane” true Benchrest competitors in the holy quest for a 250-25x are laughed at for taking the human element out of shooting.

Now look at the Benchrest line of any EBR or RMAC and look at the hundreds and hundreds of Dollars spent to eliminate the factory faults, deficiencies, inadequacies because these rifles were really designed for hunting or carrying into the field, they add C.F. barrel stiffeners, weights, bipod adapters extensions, aluminum stocks, tuners, etc.,etc.,etc.

Even better the run and gun just shoot sighters to adjust for the next shot is the way! Now using “wind” flags is starting to gain favor? Don’t know why? Fanatic BR shooters foolishly use those to obtain that perfect 250-25x…

Now here’s something really astonishing and foolish I will go once a month to shoot in competition and never have the opportunity to win cash or prizes? I meet with other fanatics and that silly quest for a 250-25x.

 

[Franklink]

I find it interesting that “fanatic/insane” true Benchrest competitors in the holy quest for a 250-25x are laughed at for taking the human element out of shooting.

And theirin lies the rub as to why benchrest purists and shooters don't see eye to eye.

A benchrest purist sees a push button actuated hole making contraption on sleds as a better chance to make 25 perfectly placed little holes.

Whereas those of use that enjoy actually holding the gun, see the mastery of those things that make us human as part of the challenge, and therefore the fun. From the stance that the human is an integral part of the equation, a pellet launching contraption on sleds is an abomination to all that shooting competitions represent.

And I've seen @thomasair say something along those lines elsewhere, that pure benchrest is a test of equipment. So I don't say the above to be inflammatory, but rather to illustrate the profound difference between the two mindsets.

 

[L.Leon]

Guys that backslap each other for shooting a 10 with equipment that’s only capable of averaging a 9 is something to see. God bless ‘em .

God did bless them, because they’re happy! If I can’t “hold” the gun I have zero interest. Real benchrest whatever… many are not looking to send from a fixed artillery piece. That’s why it is such a niche endeavor/sport. I want to hold my baby shooter.

 

[thomasair]

It’s about making the most accurate rifle within the rules and the shooter being able to make the most of it on the target. You need both to excel at benchrest.

It’s not for everyone. In fact it’s not for many at all. If you like hanging onto the gun, there are lots of competition shooting disciplines where that is required. Benchrest isn’t one of them, though.