Time to educate the TPWD about Muzzle energy field checks.

[T3PRanch]

It has unfortunately come time to rally all Texas airgunners once again. The TPWD is rumored to be considering verification of the muzzle energy of your chosen .30 or larger caliber airguns using nothing more than manufacturer specifications (which are rarely real world numbers) which every airgunner knows would be the WRONG way to determine the legal status of each airgun for hunting big game in Texas. The department needs to become educated to the fact that airguns are highly variable and modifiable to many power ranges. The only way to determine the power output at the muzzle is via projectile weight and muzzle velocity. Please make an effort to contact any and everyone in the TPWD to educate them to these facts. When an e-mail address or phone number and contact person are known they will be posted here. For now you can try to contact Clayton Wolf who headed up the rule or Clay Roberts who has been made aware of this issue by another concerned airgunner. The TPWD “contact us” number is 800-792-1112 . Call or at least try to e-mail: [email protected]

 

[BigTinBoat]

What is your "goal" here? Is it to stop guys from using under powered guns, which would be legal based on manufacturers specs? Or stop guys from getting tickets for using a modified gun which would not in stock form be legal?

Personally I'd let that sleeping dog lye. I thought about that when considering a big bore for use in Maryland. Md is .40cal and 400fpe. So what if my gun is tuned for 1 shot at 400fpe and then the 2nd shot is under 400fpe? How would they check it? Chrony? Are they going to just shoot my gun over the chrony when they come upon me? IF so, how do they know the weight of the projectile? Am I to trust a DNR officer to be able to run a rod thru my barrel to remove the pellet to weigh it? What if they do this (without damaging my barrel), and shoot it and it meets the requirements, but I don't have am air source with me and I want to keep hunting? My next shot won't meet the requirements, or maybe not even enough FPE to make a clean kill? Too many thing to go wrong here IMHO.

 

[T3PRanch]

For example let us say that the Benjamin Bulldog Factory specifications state up to 200 ft/lb. Illegal in Texas!

My Bulldog and many more have been modified to shoot 250 to 300 ft/lb. Legal in Texas.

Officer finds me with a Bulldog hunting deer and uses factory specs. I am in trouble.

Officer properly ascertains I am using a modified gun making required energy (215 ft/lb or more). I am just fine.

The goal is to PREVENT guns being blacklisted by the TPWD just because of manufacturers specifications!

The ultimate goal is an Educated TPWD who does not treat airguns like powder burners. Airguns require a totally different mindset and testing methodology. They are simply ignorant at this point like any beginning airgunner but they can be Trained!

Do what you feel is correct in MD but I prefer an educated agency with understanding of the nuances of the issue.

IN the words of Neal Peart "Ignorance, Prejudice and Fear walk hand in hand".

 

[Olevey]

For example let us say that the Benjamin Bulldog Factory specifications state up to 200 ft/lb. Illegal in Texas!

My Bulldog and many more have been modified to shoot 250 to 300 ft/lb. Legal in Texas.

Officer finds me with a Bulldog hunting deer and uses factory specs. I am in trouble.

Officer properly ascertains I am using a modified gun making required energy (215 ft/lb or more). I am just fine.

The goal is to PREVENT guns being blacklisted by the TPWD just because of manufacturers specifications!

The ultimate goal is an Educated TPWD who does not treat airguns like powder burners. Airguns require a totally different mindset and testing methodology. They are simply ignorant at this point like any beginning airgunner but they can be Trained!

Do what you feel is correct in MD but I prefer an educated agency with understanding of the nuances of the issue.

IN the words of Neal Peart "Ignorance, Prejudice and Fear walk hand in hand".

How would the officer determine that you have a modified gun that meets the power criteria. Although I do understand what your trying to do, it does not seem like a feasible effort and probably a waste of time. Short of carry around a chrony and forcing shooters to shoot through it there is no way to accurately assess fpe. They probably decided to use factory specs because it is the only reasonable way to attack a daunting effort such as this. If no actual testing is done then there is no real value to the assessments and just seems like it can and would turn into a huge mess. Just too much variability to do it any other way, so if one wants to hunt a specific game then they should have to buy a rifle with factory specs in accordance with their list, again only way to feasibly attack the issue IMO.

 

[Guest]

OK. OK. This is starting to look like it is going to go sideways pretty quickly, which is completely unnecessary.

If the folks in Texas want to have an educated wildlife management service, how could anyone not applaud that? 

The closer you get to DC the more likely that you are going to find someone who will figure out three dozen reasons why *ANY* idea wont work. That is reasonable given the utter lunacy which is Washington DC.

Bottom line this for you kiddies, cause it ain't rocket science. The paint ball fields have understood this problem for nearly three decades now. There are cheap chronys that attach to the muzzle of your rifle. The officer can weigh one of your pellets on a pocket scale. The calculation of muzzle energy is so easy to run that you can learn to do it in your head with sufficient accuracy for a field test.

That said, when I was growing up, we had to pass a test before we could bow hunt on Fort Eustis. Paint Ballers are chronied onto (and in some places off of) the field.

This is an easy problem to solve and all Thrumond has asked for here is his local (shooters from Texas, who are subject to the problem he defines) to give him a hand in educating his Fish and Game people.

Seems simple enough for even this old Okie.

 

[T3PRanch]

Thanks oldspook. That sums it up very succinctly. 

What it does is give AirForce the only clear advantage in hunting guns for Texas since the Umarex Hammer is still total vaporware. The next 4 choices outside the Quackenbush (which is another mostly unobtanium gun) and the Badger run nearly $2K each (XP-Airguns, Extreme Big Bore, PBBA and Bushbuck). This continues to be a BIG issue for little dealers who may have already stocked and modified guns that produce the power required but the factory specs say they don't. The departments pedantic wishy washyness is damaging to small business. They are attempting to regulate out issues that have not occurred rather than dealing with the issues IF or when they do occur.

To boil it down simply "in their way thinking" they should just throw out all energy and projectile weights and specify exactly which guns can be used.

AirForce Texan's

Badger

Quackenbush

PBBA

EBB

XP

BB

That would be the total list!

But wait a minute what about Fill pressure bla bla bla. Don't fix it till it breaks!!!

 

[BigTinBoat]

For example let us say that the Benjamin Bulldog Factory specifications state up to 200 ft/lb. Illegal in Texas!

My Bulldog and many more have been modified to shoot 250 to 300 ft/lb. Legal in Texas.

Officer finds me with a Bulldog hunting deer and uses factory specs. I am in trouble.

Officer properly ascertains I am using a modified gun making required energy (215 ft/lb or more). I am just fine.

The goal is to PREVENT guns being blacklisted by the TPWD just because of manufacturers specifications!

The ultimate goal is an Educated TPWD who does not treat airguns like powder burners. Airguns require a totally different mindset and testing methodology. They are simply ignorant at this point like any beginning airgunner but they can be Trained!

Do what you feel is correct in MD but I prefer an educated agency with understanding of the nuances of the issue.

IN the words of Neal Peart "Ignorance, Prejudice and Fear walk hand in hand".

OK - so now I know what your goal is. So how would you propose that the Officers "determine" whether or not a gun is "legal"?

1) Have the officers remove your projectile, weigh it, then chrony it and calculate the energy? If I owned a $2000 bigbore I sure as heck wouldn't want an officer using a ramrod to remove my projectile. Once he does the test fire, if you aren't carrying spare air now you're down 1 shot before you even start.

2) Have the gun "pretested" and "approved"? Not sure this would work based on fill pressures and different projectiles

3) Some other method?

Seems kinda complicated. If it were me, I'd carry a scale, chrony and air tank in my truck and if stopped could easily verify for the officers that my gun meets the minimum fpe.

 

[Kinetic45]

They are going to do SOMETHING so better to set it up 'right' for us now than fight for years to get a bad policy changed.

Not necessarily endorsing anything here just putting it out for consideration.

Well, every officer already caries quite a bit of gear in their vehicle so either they could carry testing gear in their trunk or require people to come to a testing station to get 'certified' (don't like that one but it is a solution)

And multiple companies sell pocket digital scales and several chronographs are on the market that are just slightly larger than hand size and portable to shoot through. For example: I have one of these and it has held up to several thousand shots from everything from .22 to .457 Texan (I would say I have at least over 200 shots using 250 to 400 gr bullets from the Tex through the x-3000) although the mounting would have to be changed from the factory cheesy, the unit itself WORKS great. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073WHPHR5

As per them taking one of my bullets to weigh later, fine with me, I carry more than one (usually five in a pocket) in case I drop one or get two shots, etc. I seriously doubt they would decide to push a bullet out the bore... shoot it through that chronograph perhaps. And any rifle I carry could stand to lose one shot to a test and still have enough power to hunt or vice versa. Best to set their policy to recognize that if a hunter asked to be allowed to recharge first they have to honor that too.

My .357 WAR FLEX would NOT be one of the rifles on that list but with the valve changed out from the Cobra to the Cothran and the enlargerd TP and barrel port it easily makes over 215 FPE with several bullet weights from 110 (@940 FPS) to 150 (@ 804).

 

[Bullfrog]

It sounds like Texas air gunners are getting a raw deal. On one hand, if they enforce manufacturer specs, many good and qualified airguns will be excluded based on arbitrary advertising data. That would also encourage manufacturers to further pad their advertised numbers to make them "Texas legal." On the other hand, making a LEO carry a chrony around in the field risks people getting popped for carrying very capable and otherwise appropriate guns into the field that might read just under the threshold on a cloudy day or if the distance isn't just so between gun and chrony. Not to mention the ire of LEOs it will raise for them having to lug extra equipment around that no other kind of hunting makes them carry.

Don't forget how this arbitrary 215fpe restriction came about... from a likely BS story from a rancher with an agenda and special ties to the Commission, and thru a small minority within the airgun community and possibly the industry whispering in the Commissioners' ears that air gunners are goobers that need a special eye on them. Also remember that in the same amendment that added the 215fpe restriction, all equipment restrictions on archery hunters were removed on the stated grounds that archery hunters can be trusted to pick the appropriate equipment for the job. The implication was that airgunners cannot be so trusted.

Sounds like ya'll have someone behind the scenes hell bent on sabotaging airgun hunting in the state. I'm so sorry. As I sit here and type and sip my morning coffee I'm about to slip out the back door with my .308 Texan SS set for 186fpe with Neilsens to do a very appropriate whitetail hunt in north Florida. Last weekend I watched BrianinMI's .308 Slayer tuned for sub 215fpe stack the deer up. I'm glad I have the freedom to pick my equipment within reason without bureaucracy or fpe snobs dictating what I can and cannot use. (Obviously, I wish the same freedom for Texas airgunners). 

 

[Brian.in.MI]

As @Bullfrog mentioned, it sounds like there’s a lack of trust going on. Every year, countless thousands of archers go afield with no standards on speed, kinetic energy, draw weight, type of broadband allowed, etc. For that matter, every hunter is given the benefit of the doubt. Who’s to say there aren’t inexperienced hunters blowing legs off of or gut shooting deer and losing them with a 3000 fpe center fire?

I like Florida’s airgun / deer laws. .30 cal and up, pcp. Done. Leave it to hunters to decide from there how they will hunt ethically. Michigan’s laws are even simpler (and our deer are much larger) .45 cal minimum- done. 

I know for a fact that even big northern deer can be killed with a LOT less than 200fpe, and there again, it’s up to the hunter to do it responsibly.

Imposing an FPE minimum really complicates things - I said that months ago and still feel the same. Decide on a minimum caliber and trust the hunter. I am of the belief that anyone hunting large game with an airgun is in the same elite group with bow hunters and can be trusted to do what’s best for the animal they’re hunting. 

Brian 

 

[T3PRanch]

Yea the entire affair smells of politics which incidentally smells just like a rank dirty big boar hog and taste just as bad! I am just trying to make a little revenue from airgun hunting and these "State Officials" are making it IMPOSSIBLE to know where we stand! I deal in Black and White. Grey is for politicians! I deal in what is and what is not. Politicians deal in what IF's. I live in a Republic where individual rights are above all else. Politicians live in a Democracy where the mob rules.

Let's just stick to the point oldspook made: This is a rally of Texas Airgun Hunters and a plea to each to try to educate our state officials!

 

[LDP]

I know my reply will probably rile some people up but here it goes.

As @Bullfrog mentioned, it sounds like there’s a lack of trust going on. Every year, countless thousands of archers go afield with no standards on speed, kinetic energy, draw weight, type of broadband allowed, etc. For that matter, every hunter is given the benefit of the doubt. Who’s to say there aren’t inexperienced hunters blowing legs off of or gut shooting deer and losing them with a 3000 fpe center fire?

I like Florida’s airgun / deer laws. .30 cal and up, pcp. Done. Leave it to hunters to decide from there how they will hunt ethically. Michigan’s laws are even simpler (and our deer are much larger) .45 cal minimum- done. 

I know for a fact that even big northern deer can be killed with a LOT less than 200fpe, and there again, it’s up to the hunter to do it responsibly.

Imposing an FPE minimum really complicates things - I said that months ago and still feel the same. Decide on a minimum caliber and trust the hunter. I am of the belief that anyone hunting large game with an airgun is in the same elite group with bow hunters and can be trusted to do what’s best for the animal they’re hunting. 

Brian

Thats exactly what happens every year with people who hunt with firearms. You also see allot of wounded game pics of people who bow hunt or carcasses that get found with an arrow sticking out of the hind end of an animal that finally died from infection. In order to hunt in any state I have lived and hunted in you are required to go thru a hunter safety course for rifles and bow. Montana state currently has two separate courses so you need to take both if you are going to rifle and bow hunt. We all know taking a course will not prevent people who cant shoot worth a damn or bad hunters from maiming animals but at least its something. 

With that said and seeing how many bad hunters/shooters are out in the woods I actually dont like the idea of letting the masses hunt big game with air rifles. I am sure thats going to get allot of panties in a wad but its the truth. If the person who plans on hunting with an air rifle can prove somehow they can actually get within a reasonable distance of the animal and then actually take the correct shot to humanely kill the animal then I am all for that person hunting with an air rifle. I also feel any one who wants to hunt with firearms, bows or any legal method should have to prove the same thing. So im not just saying this for air rifles but hunters in general. 

All one has to do is read thru the comments of all the air rifle forums to get an idea of just how many bad hunters/ shooters are out there hunting small game with air rifles. I am not trying to bash anyone or point fingers but its the truth. How many threads have you read where people swear tree squirrels have some type of armor and dont die with proper head shots or heart lung shots? Then they defend the argument by saying I know the shot was good but 40 fpe just doesnt kill squirrels even with head shots. Just imagine the people who have a hard time killing small game with grossly overpowered air rifles going out in the field to hunt elk, black bear and deer with an air rifle. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

You cant regulate bad hunters or shooters out of the situation. The next best thing is to create regulations that force people to use equipment thats guaranteed to provide enough power to humanely kill the animal. Unfortunately even then people who should never be out hunting will still take that equipment and use it incorrectly to maim animals.

I dont know what the answer is for what regulations should be in place for air gun hunting. I do know the very minimum should be regulations that force air gun hunters to use equipment that meets specific caliber and or power levels. The state should also require an air gun specific hunting course that covers the special requirements for a clean ethical kill with said air rifles before being able to hunt with an air rifle. If the sate instituted an air gun specific course they could take that time for the air gun hunters to get their air rifles certified as meeting the power level requirement for the states regulations. They could have multiple air rifles certified at that time and have them all listed on the certificate. The air gun hunter would be required to carry the air gun certification with their hunting licenses. If the hunter is stopped by a game warden they can check the air rifle they are hunting with against the certificate to insure they are using the equipment they are suppose to use. That seems simple enough. The hardest part would probably be getting the right people in position to run the air rifle course that actually know what they are talking about in regards to using air rifles for hunting big game.

Rant over

 

[T3PRanch]

Well I know a retired Game Warden from TPWD who is a member of this forum and he has told me that he has seen numerous wounded and lost animals throughout his career. The majority were wounded or lost with high power firearms perfectly capable of taking the animal in question. The hunter in these situations , however, was NOT capable. You can't regulate for common sense because it is not that common and is becoming less and less common with each passing generation. People do stupid stuff and NOTHING on earth will stop that. The problem is those who want to regulate the stupid end up limiting those who are responsible and capable while the stupid still offend. It is the no one left behind syndrome. When nobody is left behind the result is EVERYBODY is left behind. Eventually this results in a society of nothing but babbling idiots void of logical thought driven by emotions alone. I thank God I'll be long dead before this social return to the "Dark Ages" is complete (I sure hope so anyway).

 

[Brian.in.MI]

@LDP, Hunters safety courses are the norm already, but...

Airgun specific certifications for the hunter and their guns only complicates the whole issue, and I’m sure the TPWD would appreciate a simple solution.

”The masses” (your words) aren’t going to pile into airgun hunting, btw. And your use of the words “it’s the truth” is also bothersome as you express your OPINION. 

This could be very simple - use common sense and a little research to decide on a minimum caliber and call it good. Why treat airgun hunters any different from crossbow, bow or primitive archers? We trust them to know the limits of themselves and their equipment and this should be no different. And by the way, wounded and lost animals are part of hunting (sadly). There is absolutely NO REASON to assume that the kill / wound ratio will be any different, and therefore the idea of specific training and certifications is completely unfounded in my opinion (It’s the truth) 

Brian