Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?

[steve123]

I think the main goal again is to keep the older competitors, and any age really, those with issues: eyes, kneeling and getting up and down off the ground....Keep them in the game.

Do we create a class that allow all equipment like Unlimited? That is not all that is needed and there has been, and continues to be resistance to the idea.

Mostly what is needed it seems to me, is a way for those mentioned above to have a fair chance to compete in the existing classes where they feel because they can't kneel, they have to take those targets offhand... which is also harder than when they were younger and more able... or they just can't shoot offhand well.

So, what if instead of the "forced position" lanes we have "Choice lanes"

It's more work for the course setters, but what if the Choice lanes had two targets for standing, two for kneeling, and two for sitting. They all have the same troyer rating. You choose either kneeling, standing or sitting... no forced positions anymore. For everyone, no special consideration for anyone.. just choices.

What ya think?
Wayne

Not foreseeing any downsides yet, but so far I like this idea.

I think if I had a 1.5" KZ at 15 yards for offhand, or a 3/4" KZ at 30Y for sitting, I could go either way. It'd be fun to have a choice.

Guys that shoot at clubs that have allowed unlimited or freestyle have already told everyone that it didn’t do much for bringing in new participants. Nobody wants to hear that, though.

There was a year or two that our club began to languish in participation. Because there were so few participants I started setting up 6 lanes and we would shoot through twice and be done in 2 hours.

Then I met some older shooters and invited them out to shoot FT knowing that we had just started a Freestyle division. I think this helped jump start participation again. Wasn't long and there were a decent amount of shooters coming back along with more new freestyle shooters. Mike Smith started coming about then to try FT. Previously I knew him from competition in the firearms world and he wasn't into airguns before this that I know of.

The next season in our club a certain MD started putting pressure on a constant basis to some other older guys to transition from freestyle to a AAFTA division. This person even raised his voice to one of them stating so and granted he was probably in a bad mood that day but nevertheless my one friend got so offended he never came back, his other friends left as well within a short time. Also there is a family of shooters these guy know that had just started buying pcp's with interest in Freestyle FT.

These were all guys that had zero intent from the get go to travel to shoot FT, or try to win a big event, or shoot in any AAFTA division. They just wanted to go have fun and shoot their airguns at steel targets once a month. And maybe camp out and socialize too. It was fun enough for them just competing against each other.

All these friends have relatives and other acquaintances that likely would have joined the sport to shoot freestyle, or possibly in the future try a AAFTA division, but the baby was thrown out with the bath water, so to speak. And our club hasn't been the same since IMHO.

 

[Airgunoregon]

No doubt most new shooters get intimidated by the equipment they see... and discouraged at the difficulty and time necessary in learning the game.

The simpler the better..
.. but we have gone down the river of "classes and divisions" so far I doubt we could go back upstream.

All the current records in AAFTA would be totally disrupted.. that wouldn't be a good thing.

So instead of making it simpler... we will probably have to add Unlimited class to the existing group

Wayne

 

[Centercut]

All this bickering just strengthens the new Extreme FT game. 25-100 yards, .30 or less, under 100 FPE. Easy day.

 

[Scotchmo]

All this bickering just strengthens the new Extreme FT game. 25-100 yards, .30 or less, under 100 FPE. Easy day.

EFT will continue to be more of a niche sport, at least for the foreseeable future. More real estate is needed, and the costlier targets will limit the number of venues severely. 20fpe is also a more common level for airguns though not sure if that’s a big deal.

 

[Airgunoregon]

EFT ONLY grows with the substantial support for the vendors.. In this case, it was started and organized by a vendor... AOA

It will grow as fast as Robert, (AOA) feeds and nurtures it.

Otherwise, like Scott says, it's takes too much for most clubs to be able to host a match.... ie venue space, prize money and large expensive targets.. or swingers in our case.

EFT has it's own political difficulties... we will see how they play out too.

Mike, I prefer the term "Debating" rather than " Bickering".. but to each their own.

Wayne

 

[Motorhead]

All this bickering just strengthens the new Extreme FT game. 25-100 yards, .30 or less, under 100 FPE. Easy day.

We are NOT BICKERING .... we are having a civil conversation on the strengths and perceived weakness's of the Field Target game we play.
Some want growth in the sport while others appear feeling the status quo is just fine. Thus we get a divisive conversation that may appear to be bickering but is something far more constructive .. We hope

 

[dayjd]

We are NOT BICKERING .... we are having a civil conversation on the strengths and perceived weakness's of the Field Target game we play.
Some want growth in the sport while others appear feeling the status quo is just fine. Thus we get a divisive conversation that may appear to be bickering but is something far more constructive .. We hope

Scott, I received you e-mail but my return reply would not leave my email app. Please send me your e-mail address and I will get back to you. Just wanted you to know that is why I cannot reply.
Bill Day

 

[K]

I've been thinking of trying something different at the Tar Heels. A hybrid game that merges FT with NRL .22. It's driven by resources.

After shooting a few precision rimfire matches and seeing the explosive growth of the sport in the last few years I started thinking about what appeals to shooters.

My opinion is that it's dynamic, has tactical appeal, and real bullets. Also, a lot of guys show up.
I can't do anything about the real bullet factor but the flip side is ammo cost is a whole lot less with air, so maybe for some people it'll be an inexpensive way to keep tuned up for Precison rimfire, or just get out of the house for a little shooting, or whatever.

I see it starting as a single class event. The only limit would likely be no more than .30 cal. No FPE or scope limits.
The idea is to use out normal FT lanes at TCRC but place NRL rimfire targets on those lanes. Just like precision rimfire you'd start standing with all your gear in hand. At the buzzer you'd take position in the shooters box of the lane, acquire your target, and start shooting. There'd be no positional restrictions, except on forced position lanes. You'd have 4-6 targets per lane and about 10-15 seconds per shot, with time adjustments made for spring guns, single shot, and magazine fed guns. Targets would be spread out and could be shot multiple times in a specific order such that you'd have 8-10 shots per lane. The MD would have to set up lanes such that you'll drop points if you can't get on target and shoot ASAP. A premuim skill set would be getting on target fast and precise control of NPA

Target ranges and shooting order would be published in advance, and there'd be a sightin period where a guy could show up and get specific holdovers for all the ranges for his rifle on the sight in range. That way a new guy would have a fighting chance and a quick shooter with a 12 fpe rifle would be good to go.

My method is to disadvantage all the high zoot equipment by making target aquisition and engagement the primary skill. I shot the last GP in WFTF class using the 16x setting on my Kahles, and frankly, I don't see any advantage in cranking it up to 50x. It's possible that a young guy with a decent fixed 8X could out shoot someone with classic FT gear simply because the wider FOV allows much faster target acquisition, on average.


We've plowed this "We need a new class to grow the sport" ground for years. The first thing I want to discover is where are all the airgun shooters who'd shoot FT if they only knew about it. My premise is that if something like this doesn't work, maybe they're just not out there. Also, if this does bring shooters out of the woodwork perhaps some of them will convert to FT.

K

 

[Motorhead]

Scott, I received you e-mail but my return reply would not leave my email app. Please send me your e-mail address and I will get back to you. Just wanted you to know that is why I cannot reply.
Bill Day

Done ..

 

[Motorhead]

There is the appeal or a lack I think those who do or don't shoot FT, that of it being low key yet intense shooting NOT being about speed but one of marksmanship.

Much like the game of Paintball where big hoppers of balls and semi-auto fire ( Super intense play ) had for many been replaced with smaller ball capacity and pump guns being essentially Single shot ... The game became far more desirable for many, especially the older and less physical players.

While I see the Rapid and Fast shooting SPEED events being popular with the younger and testosterone fueled crowd, it won't have universal appeal just like FT does now.

JMO tho ...

 

[K]

There is the appeal or a lack I think those who do or don't shoot FT, that of it being low key yet intense shooting NOT being about speed but one of marksmanship.

Much like the game of Paintball where big hoppers of balls and semi-auto fire ( Super intense play ) had for many been replaced with smaller ball capacity and pump guns being essentially Single shot ... The game became far more desirable for many, especially the older and less physical players.

While I see the Rapid and Fast shooting SPEED events being popular with the younger and testosterone fueled crowd, it won't have universal appeal just like FT does now.

JMO tho ...

...........and that may prompt some to convert. It's all an academic conversation now. whether or not I try it is going to depend if I can figure out how to promote it. I don't see much attraction for FT or Precision rimfire shooters, but that's not the idea.

 

[Centercut]

I've been thinking of trying something different at the Tar Heels. A hybrid game that merges FT with NRL .22. It's driven by resources.

After shooting a few precision rimfire matches and seeing the explosive growth of the sport in the last few years I started thinking about what appeals to shooters.

My opinion is that it's dynamic, has tactical appeal, and real bullets. Also, a lot of guys show up.
I can't do anything about the real bullet factor but the flip side is ammo cost is a whole lot less with air, so maybe for some people it'll be an inexpensive way to keep tuned up for Precison rimfire, or just get out of the house for a little shooting, or whatever.

I see it starting as a single class event. The only limit would likely be no more than .30 cal. No FPE or scope limits.
The idea is to use out normal FT lanes at TCRC but place NRL rimfire targets on those lanes. Just like precision rimfire you'd start standing with all your gear in hand. At the buzzer you'd take position in the shooters box of the lane, acquire your target, and start shooting. There'd be no positional restrictions, except on forced position lanes. You'd have 4-6 targets per lane and about 10-15 seconds per shot, with time adjustments made for spring guns, single shot, and magazine fed guns. Targets would be spread out and could be shot multiple times in a specific order such that you'd have 8-10 shots per lane. The MD would have to set up lanes such that you'll drop points if you can't get on target and shoot ASAP. A premuim skill set would be getting on target fast and precise control of NPA

Target ranges and shooting order would be published in advance, and there'd be a sightin period where a guy could show up and get specific holdovers for all the ranges for his rifle on the sight in range. That way a new guy would have a fighting chance and a quick shooter with a 12 fpe rifle would be good to go.

My method is to disadvantage all the high zoot equipment by making target aquisition and engagement the primary skill. I shot the last GP in WFTF class using the 16x setting on my Kahles, and frankly, I don't see any advantage in cranking it up to 50x. It's possible that a young guy with a decent fixed 8X could out shoot someone with classic FT gear simply because the wider FOV allows much faster target acquisition, on average.


We've plowed this "We need a new class to grow the sport" ground for years. The first thing I want to discover is where are all the airgun shooters who'd shoot FT if they only knew about it. My premise is that if something like this doesn't work, maybe they're just not out there. Also, if this does bring shooters out of the woodwork perhaps some of them will convert to FT.

K

Sounds like NRL-22?
They already have a thriving Airgun Class and have had the event twice now as a part of RMAC. Guys in the Utah area have three clubs that hold monthly matches, so they can shoot 3 matches a month if they want, and some do.

Also, as mentioned above Extreme FT is also growing, and has had a GP series in 2022, with the Championship match to be held at EBR this year. Some clubs like the one ran by Ben Spencer at Phoenix Rod and Gun have monthly matches, others like the one run by Ron Robinson at Ranchito Robinson in TX are run quarterly. I'm not sure of the frequency of matches in Oregon at Wayne Burn's club, but there will be more clubs having EFT matches in 2023, like possibly in Oklahoma, Ohio, and Idaho. Its fun and can be shot with the guns we hunt with, and minimal rules.

PS., OK Debating, not Brickering... errr, ahhh, hmmm, I mean Bickering.
Mike

 

[beerthief]

Anyone think somehow we could convince Pratner ?(the guy that does TV / streaming ) to do a show on FT ? might get a few people interested if he doesn't only show the 4K guns
My intro to FT was the UK videos showing a R9 or TX200 and a scope , maybe a ground mat . guns that looked like you could leave the match and go Squirrel hunt on the way home .
oops maybe throwing a spit ball again

 

[Jezter6]

Obligatory "FNG" post from a guy new to airguns, new to FT, and is a sub-par to barely mediocre shooter. I'm more of a plinker, but I do FT from time to time because it's fun and I support my friend's club by going to their "match" when I can, though sometimes I just mule the rifle for my wife as I'm just happy being social around shooters. Since I'm a newbie, I have no history of the sport or rules from the past, so I only look at things through my very limited experience.

From some viewpoints, it seems almost necessary to have different classes and divisions based on the spectrum of attendees, but with acknowledgement of the fact that with only 8-10 people, having 4 classes seems absurd. No, I don't like the idea of more classes to win an award, I'll be dead last in any single or combined class. I do however think it's more fun "competing" with people on the same level without having to try and play the arms and equipment race. And I don't think we can grow FT if we continue to make things more difficult or require better gear and equipment for new people to even feel like you're part of the crowd.

 

[K]

Sounds like NRL-22?
They already have a thriving Airgun Class and have had the event twice now as a part of RMAC. Guys in the Utah area have three clubs that hold monthly matches, so they can shoot 3 matches a month if they want, and some do.

Also, as mentioned above Extreme FT is also growing, and has had a GP series in 2022, with the Championship match to be held at EBR this year. Some clubs like the one ran by Ben Spencer at Phoenix Rod and Gun have monthly matches, others like the one run by Ron Robinson at Ranchito Robinson in TX are run quarterly. I'm not sure of the frequency of matches in Oregon at Wayne Burn's club, but there will be more clubs having EFT matches in 2023, like possibly in Oklahoma, Ohio, and Idaho. Its fun and can be shot with the guns we hunt with, and minimal rules.

PS., OK Debating, not Brickering... errr, ahhh, hmmm, I mean Bickering.
Mike

Similar to NRL 22, but not the same. We'd be shooting off existing FT lanes without props. That'd keep me from having to come up with a bunch of extra gear just to give it a try. You could shoot sitting, prone, kneeling, off one knee using the lane stake as a prop, or any other way as long as your body was mostly in the box.



K

 

[Jezter6]

Similar to NRL 22, but not the same. We'd be shooting off existing FT lanes without props. That'd keep me from having to come up with a bunch of extra gear just to give it a try. You could shoot sitting, prone, kneeling, off one knee using the lane stake as a prop, or any other way as long as your body was mostly in the box.



K

I've never looked into NRL22 until today based on this thread. I agree with someone above where some of the forced positions on props are only for the younger and fitter, and much of the issues as it stands today is with people who can't do forced position shots.

What I do like about it (at least in the chances of some FT clubs having a reasonable forest-like setting) is some use of supporting props. I'm not a hunter, only did it when I was a teenager, but I do remember scoping out a good spot to sit/stand with some sort of natural rest being possible in a fair amount of them. Standing shots, but leaning against a tree for some support. Or a "fallen log" prop that one would hide behind in a natural situation would be both realistic and more fun than walking down a bucket line in a clear field.

I like that the course designer for the club I go to (ok he's my friend so I'm biased) is at LEAST interesting when the weather says we can walk the trails. Targets aren't easily acquired, and there's a good use of visual "tricks" to make things feel a different range than they actually are. A shot may "feel" impossible but if you think about the arc it's totally legit. I get not all clubs have the room for such a thing though. I've wanted to shoot another club but hearing that it's all just a straight line course, it doesn't seem "fun" when they are forced to use target diameter as the only way to make shots more challenging.

 

[Motorhead]

I've never looked into NRL22 until today based on this thread. I agree with someone above where some of the forced positions on props are only for the younger and fitter, and much of the issues as it stands today is with people who can't do forced position shots.

What I do like about it (at least in the chances of some FT clubs having a reasonable forest-like setting) is some use of supporting props. I'm not a hunter, only did it when I was a teenager, but I do remember scoping out a good spot to sit/stand with some sort of natural rest being possible in a fair amount of them. Standing shots, but leaning against a tree for some support. Or a "fallen log" prop that one would hide behind in a natural situation would be both realistic and more fun than walking down a bucket line in a clear field.

I like that the course designer for the club I go to (ok he's my friend so I'm biased) is at LEAST interesting when the weather says we can walk the trails. Targets aren't easily acquired, and there's a good use of visual "tricks" to make things feel a different range than they actually are. A shot may "feel" impossible but if you think about the arc it's totally legit. I get not all clubs have the room for such a thing though. I've wanted to shoot another club but hearing that it's all just a straight line course, it doesn't seem "fun" when they are forced to use target diameter as the only way to make shots more challenging.

Sadly not all clubs Coast to Coast have the luxury of a "Woods" setting, or even natural terrain. Many of "US CLUBS" are operating within property owned by gun clubs or shooting ranges. It is fairly rare out west we get anything but flat open ground to play our FT game within. ( Nevada & Oregon are the exception )
That Said .... Range and KZ size are the ONLY miens we generally have to alter difficulty outside mother natures wind if present.

FYI ...

 

[Airgunoregon]

You would think that it would be fairly easy to find a venue in the woods or varied terrain for up and down shots.. but if one looks at the current venues, I'd guess that about 50% of the clubs only have access to firearm ranges with flat straight shooting lines close together with berms on all sides. At least they get some trigger time and comradery.

It's hard to find a place where the land owner is willing to have folks come and fill their place with lead and potentially mess it up.

Try to find a venue to host 20 to 120 competitors with at least 30 lanes out to 55 yards. Some clubs are lucky to know someone with land that loves the sport, but most have to shoot at a gun range with the firearms.

Wayne

 

[Jezter6]

Sadly not all clubs Coast to Coast have the luxury of a "Woods" setting, or even natural terrain. Many of "US CLUBS" are operating within property owned by gun clubs or shooting ranges. It is fairly rare out west we get anything but flat open ground to play our FT game within. ( Nevada & Oregon are the exception )
That Said .... Range and KZ size are the ONLY miens we generally have to alter difficulty outside mother natures wind if present.

FYI ...

Truth. Which is also why EFT is so much more popular out there where you may have more open range to do so.

A worldwide rules engine (WFTF) struggles when our side of the pond wants to play by our terrain and our personalities. Seems even a national body in the USA will have similar struggles when terrain and culture differ.

 

[dayjd]

Yada, Yada, Yada! How long are we going to beat this dead horse before someone man's up and requests an unlimited class. It is not going to happen by the AFFTA BOG just approving it. I have a hunch that the last Chairman that went for it ended his leadership in early 2018 got beat down so bad that he resigned. I personally have been called "Crazy' by an old school former Chairman when we wanted the unlimited class back in 2017. At that time the present chairman insured me we would have it the following year. I wish that former Chairman would step up and tell us why it never materialized. I have always thought it was the old guard that crushed it. Right now we have a Hunter class competitor with a National Championship under his belt that chairs AFFTA and has for a couple years. As far as I know no one has approached him about the Unlimited class. Settle on an agreeable set of rules and I'll see what I can do when we go to PR in a couple weeks.
Time flies but I think this conversation started with "Is the Open Class suffering a slow death?" about a month ago. They have proven they want to survive and without the hunter class helping them out. Let's agree on something or give it up! Maybe that former Chairman was right about me but, I think I'm in good company!
Bill Day