I would be willing to bet theft if you posted the distances it would make very little difference.
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Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?
- Thread starter Airgunoregon
- Start date
First of all Mike, if 10 shooters went to the unlimited class from the hunter class that has 25 shooters show up at a average GP. You would still have 25 shooters only distributed into two classes. Those two classes would be about the average size as WFTF and Open are now. So how is that really affecting the head count of AAFTA. If a few of those Hunter class shooters just bowed out because they were no longer competitive then the AAFTA head count would shrink. I think the difference between you and I is that I'm looking at a glass half full with optimism and you are looking at the same glass with pessimism.
I see mixing it up a little bit reducing headcount reduction from burnout. Since the Open Piston Class burned out, the Unlimited Class is a better alternative as a replacement. I also think Hunter class will continue to grow because a few Top shooters will likely leave making room for new award recipients. Everyone kinda moves up the ladder. Why not?
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The lets just see happened years ago, thinking @ 7 years ago it got going for trials ... Clubs offered it & folks shot it with quite good enthusiasm enjoying to the point that the Freestyle / Unlimited class had proved its legitimacy (2017) and promised it would be a probationary class acknowledged by the AAFTA the following year. ( it never happened with the Stepping down of Leo D ) So by the clock of time This class SHOULD HAVE already been in the legal Class Books as of 2018
As a Time Stamp ... I have an awarded non AAFTA Wall Plaque Trophy stating HIGH FREESTYLE from the 2015 Cal State Championship.
So even back then ( At a State Championship ) the class had enough folks shooting it & willing to give up an AAFTA championship / GP points to play the game that way.
So I'm really not pushing the Lets see ... but campaigning for Freestyle / Unlimited to become a legitimate class or the optional letting Open class use Shooting Bi-pods / Sticks, That has been my overall position all along.
As a Time Stamp ... I have an awarded non AAFTA Wall Plaque Trophy stating HIGH FREESTYLE from the 2015 Cal State Championship.
So even back then ( At a State Championship ) the class had enough folks shooting it & willing to give up an AAFTA championship / GP points to play the game that way.
So I'm really not pushing the Lets see ... but campaigning for Freestyle / Unlimited to become a legitimate class or the optional letting Open class use Shooting Bi-pods / Sticks, That has been my overall position all along.
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Just exported this conversation from a 16X scope question on this FT Forum
I have known you and Sue for quite a few years now from our early crosman years and of course through Joe Eler and Bob Felton. Back around 2010 to maybe 2015 we use to see a couple truck loads of you West Virginia Pelletiers join us at the Crosman event. Those were great years. I have seen much less of you and your wife over the last few years as we snake through the golden years . I was very pleased to see you at Burning river this year and very pleased that Sue was able to get her knee replacement. It is a fairly long recovery but next time I see you guys she maybe sitting on a higher bucket and back to shooting. I feel you two are a prime candidate for our sort after unlimited class. Where you could find a scope that could range find better and so could she and, still sit on a bucket to shoot. Joe has been gone 5 or 6 years now and knowing him I am certain he would of loved to look through some glass he could range find with. I know we all Miss Joe and his character. I hope Bob can somehow recover from his shoulder surgery and get back into the game. Which reminds me I need to give him a call. As you may be aware we have been in a struggle to bring the Unlimited class again as a legal AAFTA class and you two are prime examples of my motivation to do this. I am going to copy and post this conversation over on the newest Unlimited class revival. If either of you are interested in this new class please find this post over there (About page 10 or 11)and post whether it would interest to you. I think the Lord may of sent you and he guided me to your scope question. Honestly, right now as I type it is 02:55 am. Went to bed about 10:30 last night and woke up at 12:40 am and couldn't get back to sleep. So at 1:30 I got up and devine intervention brought me to your rangefinding question. Hallelujah!
Bill Day
Skip, I have found that returning your scope wheel to the lowest deadstop setting before ranging a target makes my rangefinding more consisitent but 45 to 55 yards is still hard to feel confident at the distance you are shooting. I'm not sure if the lighting has any thing to do with it but many times 50 yards and 55 yards look the same. Make that shot with good accuracy and you have a miss. If you aim is a little unsteady you night bang one in once in a while but most of the time you will be putting a zero on your card.
I have known you and Sue for quite a few years now from our early crosman years and of course through Joe Eler and Bob Felton. Back around 2010 to maybe 2015 we use to see a couple truck loads of you West Virginia Pelletiers join us at the Crosman event. Those were great years. I have seen much less of you and your wife over the last few years as we snake through the golden years . I was very pleased to see you at Burning river this year and very pleased that Sue was able to get her knee replacement. It is a fairly long recovery but next time I see you guys she maybe sitting on a higher bucket and back to shooting. I feel you two are a prime candidate for our sort after unlimited class. Where you could find a scope that could range find better and so could she and, still sit on a bucket to shoot. Joe has been gone 5 or 6 years now and knowing him I am certain he would of loved to look through some glass he could range find with. I know we all Miss Joe and his character. I hope Bob can somehow recover from his shoulder surgery and get back into the game. Which reminds me I need to give him a call. As you may be aware we have been in a struggle to bring the Unlimited class again as a legal AAFTA class and you two are prime examples of my motivation to do this. I am going to copy and post this conversation over on the newest Unlimited class revival. If either of you are interested in this new class please find this post over there (About page 10 or 11)and post whether it would interest to you. I think the Lord may of sent you and he guided me to your scope question. Honestly, right now as I type it is 02:55 am. Went to bed about 10:30 last night and woke up at 12:40 am and couldn't get back to sleep. So at 1:30 I got up and devine intervention brought me to your rangefinding question. Hallelujah!
Bill Day
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Bill, you shouldn’t automatically assume that anyone that has a physical disadvantage (no matter what the reason) is looking for the easy way out. Some people immensely enjoy overcoming obstacles in their pursuit of something. It can actually be very rewarding.
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You're right Mike all "shooters with physical disadvantages are not looking for the easy was out but from my experience it is painful. I'm looking for a way to keep them from dropping out. I question your reasons for not being able to wrap you head around that. Did you experience a physical problems or burnout before you left Field Target and went back to Benchrest or was it not challenging enough? I have two friends that have traveled and shot for at least 10 years that I feel are on the border of potentially dropping out. Here is the reply from them about trying the Unlimited class that they just posted on the scope rangefinging question I referenced above.
Skip's Reply
"It was good to talk to you too. Like you we miss Joe. Unlimited would be fine with me. I was surprised I could do 2 matches in one day. I was exhausted and everything hurt. I shot yesterday at Bob's Bill was there. The rest of the group has dropped away old age and medical problems"
Mike , if you think I just made this up then please click back to the FT menu topic (Focusing at 16X) and read the same thing I just pasted here from them.
Skip's Reply
"It was good to talk to you too. Like you we miss Joe. Unlimited would be fine with me. I was surprised I could do 2 matches in one day. I was exhausted and everything hurt. I shot yesterday at Bob's Bill was there. The rest of the group has dropped away old age and medical problems"
Mike , if you think I just made this up then please click back to the FT menu topic (Focusing at 16X) and read the same thing I just pasted here from them.
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I think I might be missing something too......
How does removing the restriction on scope magnification help somebody with age-related disability? Bad backs, knees and hips are still gonna be bad backs, hips and knees, regardless of scope magnification.
How does removing the restriction on scope magnification help somebody with age-related disability? Bad backs, knees and hips are still gonna be bad backs, hips and knees, regardless of scope magnification.
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That's not quite correct. And it wasn't due to Leo's time on the BOG ending. As someone who was on the BOG at the time, was present in 2017 at the Nationals meeting and the years that followed, I'd like to set the record a little straighter here.
In December 2017, after Nationals (while Leo was still on the BOG), the BOG asked for the clubs to vote on a trial for an unlimited class. To move forward with the trial, a 2/3 majority of clubs needed to be in favor. The BOG also put forth acceptance criteria that would have to be met for the class to move from a trial to AAFTA sanctioned IF the trial was accepted. This was done because there were concerns (as there still appear to be) about unlimited simply robbing shooters from Hunter. And due to concerns that courses would be cleaned or nearly cleaned more regularly leading to an increase in course difficulty, there was also criteria established regarding what the impact on GP course difficulty might have been. Again, this was done to say to the clubs and shooters, IF you want to try this class, here are the standards we are looking for in order for it to become AAFTA sanctioned.
This was all emailed directly to club reps. While I do not remember the percentage of clubs that voted for and against, I do know it was not the required 2/3. That is why the trial class never moved forward.
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I’ve pointed that very thing out earlier, but there was no logical response made to address it. I suspect you will get the same.
I think we are supposed to believe the “old eyes” argument …despite the fact that we all use the best corrective lens available mounted right to our gun.
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While I can't argue "old eyes" I am in a place to argue bad eyes.
Due to my eye disease I've had this procedure done, twice to each eye.
It's as painful as it looks.
I'm at a place where glasses don't offer enough refraction to correct my vision. My only resort is quarter sized contact lenses. I have to put them in and out with a little toilet plunger looking contraption. And I have to do it every couple hrs, every day, to refresh the saline solution inside so that my vision stays clear (ish).
Not looking for sympathy, just sharing an example of how everybody has some sort of challenge to deal with.
So if bad eyesight is the argument for unlimited scope power keeping old folks "in the game" it is a poor one.
Again though, just allow any combination of equipment to be used and we're all in the same class and the crowd that wants unlimited scope power for the bucket-sitters gets to have their cake and eat it too. And I might even switch over to a stool and bipod. (And no boohoos if targets can't be seen from a certain position, just shoot from a position that allows you to see it.)
Due to my eye disease I've had this procedure done, twice to each eye.
It's as painful as it looks.
I'm at a place where glasses don't offer enough refraction to correct my vision. My only resort is quarter sized contact lenses. I have to put them in and out with a little toilet plunger looking contraption. And I have to do it every couple hrs, every day, to refresh the saline solution inside so that my vision stays clear (ish).
Not looking for sympathy, just sharing an example of how everybody has some sort of challenge to deal with.
So if bad eyesight is the argument for unlimited scope power keeping old folks "in the game" it is a poor one.
Again though, just allow any combination of equipment to be used and we're all in the same class and the crowd that wants unlimited scope power for the bucket-sitters gets to have their cake and eat it too. And I might even switch over to a stool and bipod. (And no boohoos if targets can't be seen from a certain position, just shoot from a position that allows you to see it.)
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Cole…that sounds awful.
Bill….I don’t know anything about old or bad eyes, but know a thing or two about a bad body.
Got picked up by a tornado, thrown over a telephone pole, and went through a garage wall after bouncing off the asphalt. I was 23 at the time.
Shattered my pelvis, made mush out of my right arm, broke almost all my ribs and shoved some through my lungs, broke all my fingers in multiple places, fractured feet, fractured vertebrae, ruptured bladder and gall bladder….yada, yada, yada. Was 210 lbs and 10-12% body fat when I went in to the hospital and came out a little over 120lbs 4 months later. Lost most of my right gluteal muscle and incurred a lot of nerve damage . Still have non union fractures in my feet from all that time ago. Had a lot rebuilds since then.
20 years later, got a MRSA infection in my right humerus that almost took the already beat to snot right arm away completely. Nothing 3 months of vancomycin couldn’t fix.
I could go on and on…but it would be boring. I’m thankful for my life and about a million other things.
Everyone has their disabilities of some kind to deal with.
Your argument that Unlimited is needed for those with bodily disabilities is also a poor one.
Mike
Bill….I don’t know anything about old or bad eyes, but know a thing or two about a bad body.
Got picked up by a tornado, thrown over a telephone pole, and went through a garage wall after bouncing off the asphalt. I was 23 at the time.
Shattered my pelvis, made mush out of my right arm, broke almost all my ribs and shoved some through my lungs, broke all my fingers in multiple places, fractured feet, fractured vertebrae, ruptured bladder and gall bladder….yada, yada, yada. Was 210 lbs and 10-12% body fat when I went in to the hospital and came out a little over 120lbs 4 months later. Lost most of my right gluteal muscle and incurred a lot of nerve damage . Still have non union fractures in my feet from all that time ago. Had a lot rebuilds since then.
20 years later, got a MRSA infection in my right humerus that almost took the already beat to snot right arm away completely. Nothing 3 months of vancomycin couldn’t fix.
I could go on and on…but it would be boring. I’m thankful for my life and about a million other things.
Everyone has their disabilities of some kind to deal with.
Your argument that Unlimited is needed for those with bodily disabilities is also a poor one.
Mike
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Frank, who is asking for a scope restriction.
Tyler, My club was a member when WFTF became a legal class and they didn't even need a trial year. They were blessed just to shoot the 2009 Nationals before they were even recognized a class and Top shooters were given awards. In 2010 they started their first AAFTA sanctioned class year. I don't believe you were even shooting FT at that time. My club never got any vote on whether to accept WFTF or not. Why does the Unlimited class required to jump through hoops when the International class did not have to. When Leo Duran told us we would have a legal class in 2018 we had 2 years of trial already completed and was good to go. The trial year vote was close even with the 2/3 of clubs required. Clubs that didn't vote were counted as being against the unlimited free style class and at the time (2015) we were granted a trial year and ended up doing two years. There seems to be a double standard here but obviously that isn't new.
Bill Day
P.S By the way that year 2009 the WFTF had their trial Nationals in Texas they had 10 people that shot it. Open PCP had 42 shooters that year. Open Piston had 12 and Hunter PCP in its 3rd AAFTA season had 13. Did anyone blame WFTF for stealing the Open shooters? I don't think anyone did. If you want a challenge and in good health its natural migration
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In 2007, the FT Worlds was held in USA. We had shooters shooting 20fpe at that event. In 2008, the World Field Target Federation made it mandatory that any country hosting a Worlds would adopt the WFTF rules. It seems like a no brainer that if we wanted to send a team to the Worlds, whether it was held here or elsewhere, that AAFTA would adopt a WFTF class without going through a trial period. There didn't need to be much of a discussion on what rules would be used because there was already a set used by many other countries.
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Lumpy, We are pretty familiar as to how well AAFTA has treated the WFTF class. They just don't do enough for the rest of us who keeps AAFTA alive here in America. Like it or not that is reality. JMHO
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I'm on board with Chas....leave open class alone. In my opinion it's a great stepping stone to WFTF since they use alot of the same equipment (bum bag, jacket, buthook, scope, I even use the same gun... Thomas). I really wish more guys that are perfectly capable of shooting Open or WFTF would give it a try. I did and and really glad I did. It seems that most people get into Field Target shooting Hunter and get set in their ways relying on shooting sticks and a chair to sit on. Nothing wrong with this but believe me when you try Open or WFTF it's like starting over again with a lot of new obstacles to overcome. It's very rewarding as well when you see yourself becoming better shooting other disciplines.
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Chas, I didn't know we were back there again. I noticed you planned on selling your harness at the end of the season. Does that mean you getting ready for the 2024 Worlds or you have beefed up your abbeys to the point you don't need one. Worst case I hope you are not falling out. Have enjoyed finding out if you brang it or not.
I have a harness I purchased in 2006 from a shooter that bowed out when the Westfield, Ma club that shut down years back. I don't think any one from that club shoots anymore. I also picked up a Jacket from Mike Nische about three years ago. It was too small for Mike and when I received it I tried it on and it fit pretty good. I have lost 45 lbs since then so I hope it still fits. I'm looking forward to playing that Open game next season if I can get the rest of me in shape. I agree with you I see no point combing an Unlimited class with Open. If Open PCP fails I would rather see it go down on its own that way there would be no one to blame. I think the PR club has more WFTF shooters than any single club over here. It looks like at this years Nationals, WFTF will have more participants than Open or hunter. As far as I can see they only have 42 that have registered and we're about a week away from the game. Good numbers for a GP but likely the smallest Nationals ever or at least since I have been playing. At the 2009 Nationals in Texas the Open class had 42 PCP shooters and Open Piston at that time had 12 springer shooters. How times change even though change scares the heck out of some people. Maybe we'll see you down at Leo's on the 23rd.P.S I would like to reclarify my next to last sentence. Almost all people dislike change. Change can be an unkown that one is unsure of the outcome. I learned that from my manufacturing days. I have disliked change myself many times. People smarter than myself created the change and it was usually mandated. Sometimes it worked out ok and a few times it didn't but, it is a constant and always lingering in our future.
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Ughhhh....
I didn't see where that was ever suggested.
I also never saw any suggestion to create more scope restrictions, but I suggested rather the exact opposite TO REMOVE ALL SCOPE RESTRICTIONS.
This has gone on and on and on.
Not directed at you Chas, but as a general observation that folks aren't reading all of the comments or following the conversation enough to keep track, I'll try to summarize, at least how I've interpreted it all....
The initial question was, "should we revisit having Unlimited?" But what the question really seemed to be was, "what do we need to do to be able to shoot from a bucket and sticks without the 16x scope limit?"
I piped in and said, get rid of all the class distinctions and allow any combination of currently allowed equipment with everybody in one giant class.
- That solves the scope limit issues for Hunter.
- That solves the situation of having 2 or 3 people in 4 different classes and not even enough in most classes to award 1st, 2nd, 3rd.
- That solves the Lleon problem, which is: "new blood" interested but not wanting to get pigeonholed into some off-the-wall ridiculous shooting position that only has an application in field target (call it the "run what ya brung-ers).
- That solves the issue of officially recognizing the overall high score (cuz in one class scenario, high score is THE winner).
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I cannot see how this would end in anything but a race to get the most and best legal aids, guns and scopes. It would be the end of springers for sure.
I know, as a Canadian, my thoughts have little weight, but here goes. I started in 1998 and was an Open class shooter, trying to increase my chances of success. So I bought a harness, a PCP, the best scope I could afford along with any other equipment I thought would help me. I shot that way with pretty good success for a number of years. As time passed, I kind of realized the only thing not improving was my shooting skill.
At this point I started cutting back the aids and started working on myself. I went to international, throwing the harness out and working on my hold without it. I shot WFTF PCP for a number of years and then thought, "Why not move to springer for even more challenge?" So I moved to WFTF Piston class and have been shooting there in recent years.
Scott came up with an interesting thought, in giving up all aids that can be used and shoot a class where you would be legal in any of the three divisions. Effectively, the opposite of your suggestion. So I took the riser off my TX, put a 16X scope on it, lost the jacket and shooting gloves, do not click the scope and it was my choice to cover all range marks on the scope as well. To be honest, it felt like hunting. It was tough, my score dropped dramatically and was definitely a physical challenge. On the plus side, it was great fun and takes less than half the time to shoot a lane.
At 73 years old, I still seek challenge as opposed to adding aids that make things easier. I have another match coming up this month and will shoot the same way. I bet my score will be higher this time stemming from things I learned the first time. I absolutely know it will be a challenge and great fun. Thanks for the idea, Scott.
Just some thoughts from an old Canadian guy who shares the love of FT with many across the world of FT.
Tim
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Cole, your suggestion has merit in solving many of the issues….it would be unpopular for (also) the reason you suggested. There would only be one winner each match.
In reality….I think the unlimited class ever being endorsed by AAFTA is a pipe dream. It’s also likely that a one class AAFTA is right alongside it.
Most AAFTA shooters are plenty happy with the way things are and see no need to change anything. They have a lot of fun just like it is.
A FEW just plain want to shoot higher scores by way of increased shooting aids instead of actually overcoming the challenges of their (Hunter) class. I capitalized the word few because I’m certain that somebody will try to say I’m suggesting ALL. It’s just a FEW. The funny part is that the FEW that are demanding it shoot at the top of their (Hunter) class already. The motive is to shoot the high overall…but admitting that doesn’t cast them in a good light so they must wrap their demands with the cloak of nobility. It’s for the growth….it’s for the new shooters….it’s for the old shooters to stay in the game. Critical thinkers can see through the weak arguments.
High power scopes don’t allow physically disabled individuals any relief from pain.
Nothing about the unlimited class will do anything to keep an old shooter competing longer than the current allowance of buckets and sticks in the Hunter class.
Unlimited shooting aids might lure in some New shooters, but the class will be immediately populated by Hunter class National Champions and current Hunter GP winners ….so the likelihood of it being a place where new shooters can compete against other new shooters as they work their way up to more challenges is zero.
Unlimited is already alive and well and offered as an unsanctioned class at many GP’s. Do the FEW guys that are demanding that AAFTA endorse the unlimited class to Save the sport actually support the grassroots unlimited class by participating in it when it’s offered at the GPs they attend? NO, they do not. Seems they don’t believe in their “cause” enough to actually get behind it.
Mike
In reality….I think the unlimited class ever being endorsed by AAFTA is a pipe dream. It’s also likely that a one class AAFTA is right alongside it.
Most AAFTA shooters are plenty happy with the way things are and see no need to change anything. They have a lot of fun just like it is.
A FEW just plain want to shoot higher scores by way of increased shooting aids instead of actually overcoming the challenges of their (Hunter) class. I capitalized the word few because I’m certain that somebody will try to say I’m suggesting ALL. It’s just a FEW. The funny part is that the FEW that are demanding it shoot at the top of their (Hunter) class already. The motive is to shoot the high overall…but admitting that doesn’t cast them in a good light so they must wrap their demands with the cloak of nobility. It’s for the growth….it’s for the new shooters….it’s for the old shooters to stay in the game. Critical thinkers can see through the weak arguments.
High power scopes don’t allow physically disabled individuals any relief from pain.
Nothing about the unlimited class will do anything to keep an old shooter competing longer than the current allowance of buckets and sticks in the Hunter class.
Unlimited shooting aids might lure in some New shooters, but the class will be immediately populated by Hunter class National Champions and current Hunter GP winners ….so the likelihood of it being a place where new shooters can compete against other new shooters as they work their way up to more challenges is zero.
Unlimited is already alive and well and offered as an unsanctioned class at many GP’s. Do the FEW guys that are demanding that AAFTA endorse the unlimited class to Save the sport actually support the grassroots unlimited class by participating in it when it’s offered at the GPs they attend? NO, they do not. Seems they don’t believe in their “cause” enough to actually get behind it.
Mike
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