Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?

[Airgunoregon]

I thought it best to start a new thread, rather than going further and further off topic in the "Is Open class suffering a slow death"

It's been attempted in the past, but there is a new AAFTA BoG for the most part and the clubs have more testing under their belts and who knows it might fly now.

Would we merge the Open class into the new class.. or leave open and add a totally new class?

Wayne

 

[Franklink]

Of the two options you listed, I feel that merging would be better than further division.

Too many classes already.

I've got no issue shooting against a guy using a laser rangefinder, my Open class scope ranges more accurately from 10-55 than laser anyway.

(No clamped in bipods/tripods though, shooter should at least need to hold the gun a little bit).

 

[beerthief]

we could have an automated cart fully computer controlled . so we can sit in the club house drinking an adult beverage waiting for our score ?

I vote we leave the rules alone , have some tradition still around .

 

[doninva]

Why turn open class into benchrest, just shoot benchrest. There are plenty of shoots. I don't think the guys that shoot open would be up for it.

 

[Airgunoregon]

The idea of this thread is to float a trial balloon of sorts.. I would write up a formal request for the BoG and clubs to consider if enough interest.

Keep in mind the piston classes have also been shrinking in this time period.

For awards at the GP matches, Match Directors usually have to "combine" all piston classes into one, and sometimes, there is still only 3-5.... But the AAFTA Grand Prix scoring sorts it all out into the classes they actually competed in... so possibly, just adding the Unlimited class might work best?

My guess is also that Open will not want to be consolidated into Unlimited, but it would be great to hear from the Open class shooters themselves.

I didn't add the range finders into the new Unlimited class... personally, the idea is to allow any power scope to the Hunter class and keep the range finding game as it is... IMHO

Wayne

 

[Airgunoregon]

The main reason I see to add the Unlimited class, is to keep our veteran shooters in the game as long as we can.

I would guess that about half at least of AAFTA's serious competitors are over 60.

Hunter class is probably 75% over 60...

Where do they go when they can't even preform in Hunter for whatever reason?

Do they quit or would they shoot Unlimited if they could?

What do you say old farts like me?

Wayne

 

[Scotchmo]

...the new Unlimited class... personally, the idea is to allow any power scope to the Hunter class and keep the range finding game as it is... IMHO

Wayne

That's not Unlimited. Open with bucket and sticks is Unlimited FT, because bucket and sticks are the only two limitations of otherwise legal FT equipment for that Division. There are lots of limitations besides scopes that are enforced on the Hunter Division.

 

[Airgunoregon]

True Dat Scott.. my bad.

 

[qball]

The main reason I see to add the Unlimited class, is to keep our veteran shooters in the game as long as we can.

I would guess that about half at least of AAFTA's serious competitors are over 60.

Hunter class is probably 75% over 60...

Where do they go when they can't even preform in Hunter for whatever reason?

Do they quit or would they shoot Unlimited if they could?

What do you say old farts like me?

Wayne

I say merger unlimited and hunter, basically hunter class with higher mag scopes. Leave open class alone.

 

[steve123]

If there was a unlimited division I think how offhand and kneeling is done should be addressed.
Should sticks be allowed, yes or no??
For example if I used sticks I would very rarely miss on those lanes. I use a coat and sling now in unlimited which is an unofficial division where i live and shoot offhand on the kneeling lanes too which still provides challenge. I could go either way so whatever the rules allow I'd do but this should have clarification.

Tripods, some are very flimsy and others are extremely stiff. I suppose tripods shouldn't be allowed. The one I used to use wasn't one of the more stable kind but a friend of mine has one that is almost unbelievable as far as how steady it is. I can hold on a 22 cal hole with my friends tripod but with mine it's more like a half inch.

Like Franklink mentioned a good 50x scope can range so well that a LRF doesn't have any big advantage.

Past these I can't think what other aspects might need attention.

I keep mentioning this but I'll do it again and that is one still has to figure out the needed windage. Because of this Hunter, Open, and, Unlimited are very close in scores currently.

We just finished our AZ state match today. Open got the highest score the first day and Hunter got it on day two. Hunter was high match score for both days combined.
Unlimited was behind them both days by a fair margin.

 

[beerthief]

how about an unlimited class limited to medical or age disabilities , us old farts can shoot along with the rest just like now? maybe just higher power scope or bum bag with a back rest ? but shoot alongside everyone else , keep your friends or enemy's as it may be

 

[qball]

And back to suggesting changing the bread and butter of US Field Target, Hunter PCP.
Why?

Without scope restriction there might be more participation? I don’t see unlimited has any participation at all anyways while some people complain about the scope limitation. Plus there aren’t many budget scopes that can range well at 16 and all the reasons brought up by Wayne.

 

[dayjd]

I have expressed how I have felt about equalizing the parity of Rangefinding in Field Target and I will not say it again. Hey what's that noise I hear? Are you bastards clapping? Well. I don't blame you! I will say that I'm pretty sure that Open class is not going to be happy if they have to shoot against the buckets and bipods with a big scope added to the mix. Their number have fallen off over the years and there is no question about that. Open Piston has no shooters left and I think we have room for a new class combing the Hunter, Open, and some of the Unlimited rules. I agree that if you want to use a rangefinder that you have a limit on your scope power. However, For the time being do not eliminate the Open class or Hunter class. Let the new class play out for a year or two as an official class. We may find a better distribution of our class numbers. I would expect the WFTF to grow just because of the upcoming Worlds in 2024. After that we may have a better understanding of what is working and what is not. At the very least those that want or seek change will feel like they have finally been heard. That would be special!
Bill Day

 

[Airgunoregon]

OK,
Maybe we need to propose a set of rules.. and then vote on it as what we would propose to the BOG and the clubs.

Some have said no range finders, including myself.
Some said no tripods... attached bipods?
some say all the things currently include in all AAFTA rules?

 

[Airgunoregon]

That's interesting Bill. Range finders allowed if scope power set at 12x?
I kind of like that..

Wayne

 

[qball]

But again, the thread is about struggles with a different class, so why drag potential changes to the Hunter PCP class into the thread?
Again!

Because I don’t see unlimited has any appreciable participation? The most I’ve seen is 2 competitors and at our local matches there aren’t any. Since that class is struggling so much then might as well just get rid of it, it’s not like we are busting at the dream at any of the other classes hunter included. People go into unlimited usually is just getting into the hobby or has physical limitation so might which is about the same as hunter class so lifting the scope limit might help majority of hunter participants and include the unlimited folks.. Obviously I don’t know what percentage of hunter shooters would vote for lifting of scope limit.

 

[qball]

Alter one class because another is faltering? Sure, great idea.
Not!

Majority of the folks I know in hunter class are there for enjoyment and social gathering(same for me in WFTF) so don’t see the point of super strict rules and what not, it’s not like hunter class is in the World Series to begin with. Again, this is entertainment like the bridge club. If we already are struggling with attendance in just about all classes then current classes aren't working(WFTF & Piston WFTF are different) especially the really low attendance ones and having yet another class with no one in it would be counter productive.


IF someone is REALLY competitive then ditch the shooting sticks and shoot WTFT or even better piston WFTF so you can go up against top shooters around the world. Clearly you have your opinion and we can agree to disagree.

 

[dayjd]

Back in 2016 - 2017 when we were approved to have the trial years on the Freestyle / Unlimited class there was more participation at various clubs around the country than we have right now. After the class was promised and then rejected by AFFTA some of them dropped out or went back to the class they came from. For instance the Arizona club had one of the biggest turnouts of likely all the clubs that offered Freestyle / Unlimited. I would like to see the Mark who heads that club share his thoughts on the class he run at his matches and how it is doing right now. This is an opportunity to increase our numbers and replace a class (Open Piston) that has so little participation it hasn't been offered at the Nationals for over five years. We could do this without treading on anyone's class. The hunter class may lose a few shooters but our numbers are pretty solid around the country anyway. As far as limitations for the new class I have no problem in keeping it to what we offer in AFFTA classes right now. This could be a win for FT in American and presently we have other FT games available in the west right now that are catching on and talk of them on the east coast. Our FT as we know it can grow a little or shrink even more and that's your reality check.

 

[oldsparky]

I,m a nobody and my opinion may not be wanted. I think more classes and more rules will only hurt FT. Most of the wants come from what would make "me" hit more targets. There is nothing wrong with missing a target. If you want to hit more practice. I don't shoot kneeling like I did when I was on a high school rifle team. My fat gut gets in the way I can't breath and my butt is so big it crushes my ankle. I need to loose weight or I could get sticks and when I am not satisfied with that I can build a portable bench to drag around and petition for that. ALL PLEASE know this is not a jab at anyone. I love open discussions, they will make this forum better! Motorhead reminded me in another post of something great. go to the AAFTA sight the banner reads "field target is about having fun" Keep it simple shoot and have fun

 

[Motorhead]

Looking back @ 10 years or so when personally introduced to the FT game/s, The use of any sort of "BI-POD" was only something the newly formed hunter class allowed. No other classes had used or would ever use them to this day. In that time it became an issue that ATTACHED bi-pods were so stable when used by those able to shoot prone, attachment was prohibited and where we hunter shooters have been now for 7-8 years.

Point to be made ...
* When we look at OPEN class and there afforded gear which is legal, the only piece of apparatus they can't use is an unattached Bi-Pod

Would it not be a viable thing with the evolution of hunter class and the Bi-pod being now used by more AAFTA Field target competitors among all shooters.
That, adding this one tool to the gear a Open shooter can use ? ** NOT a bucket or high seat tho !!!! If you can's sit on the ground or a bumm bag then you won't be shooting open with a Bi-pod

Hunter class stays as it currently is ...
Open gets to use shooting sticks ONLY WHILE SEATED at ground level/bagged ...

** Hunter shooters can already sit on the ground / bag and use there sticks ... FYI

This while not unilaterally giving all everything ... It does give opportunity for an otherwise hunter shooter to get his big glass and some other afforded gear IF he/she can get off a bucket or stool to the ground and shoot as such OPEN class.

NO NEW CLASS is established and Open becomes very close to what an unlimited / freestyle class would become .. Except being able to sit on a bucket or stool.

This is so simple a process and IMO makes the most sense.

Scott Schneider
SVFTC Match Director