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TrinityMaker

Member
Jan 30, 2020
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California, United States
So I was browsing eBay yesterday and ran across a seller for air rifle slugs. NONE of his offerings were custom. Also, he offered nothing in swaged ammo. Everything he was selling was cast ammo utilizing NOE bullet molds. Specifically the "Bob's Boat Tail" rounds. I noticed his pictured castings looked smooth and uniform, but they were EXTREMELY shiny and nearly platinum in color. Well, I'm no professional, but I own sever molds and have cast several thousand slugs in my day. All my slugs are small caliber (.25) multi cavity molds. And if any of you guys have cast small caliber slugs, you know how precise your equipment needs to be, and how temperamental the final product can be if everything isn't just right. I've played with different alloy blends for hardness by adding tin and antimony. The addition of these products will definitely help the overall look of the final product, but it also increases the hardness. 

Like I said, this guys slugs look like platinum. So I cordially sent him an email and asked what the ratio was in his cast slugs as I was concerned that they might be too hard for my liking. 

Now before I give you his response back, please tell me if I have overstepped in any way by asking this question...... I just want a consensus. 

BTW- here are the slugs so you can see that they are indeed the Bob's Boat Tail slugs from NOE Bullet Molds. Also, notice the mirror, platinum finish.

SLUGS.1638490237.jpg

 
I believe you overstepped. I have and do cast sabot and roundball .54 using a wide array of sourced lead. Freshly cast before oxidation and they all look this way. I, with the utmost respect, think you overstepped. Judging an alloy or amalgam on luster alone, especially without knowing the surface oxidation, seems wrong. I have had roundball come out freshly cast from the melting pot with more luster than my wife’s wedding ring.


 
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Not sure what your question is. 

First word that comes to mind though: CAPITALISM. 

Yeah, it would be truthfulness in advertising if he stated some kind of tin:pb ratio, or some mohs #, but if somebody wants to buy them for his asking price without requesting info on their hardness, well, it's their money.

As for if you were in the wrong by asking him how hard they are? I see no issue there, simply a potential customer asking a relevant question. 

If you're insinuating he is dishonest by using the NOE mold developed by RSterne to make and sell slugs....I don't see an issue there. The "service" he is selling is the sourcing of lead and the components necessary for pouring slugs, the (potentially) subjecting himself to the lead fumes during pouring, the time invested in making them, etc. 

Some people have more sense than the money, others, more money than sense. Lots of us wouldn't have jobs if there weren't people in the world willing to pay someone for something they could do themselves, but just don't want to. 


 
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Well, I've cast thousands of slugs for my rifle using 99.9% pure lead. They never come out platinum white. Even freshly cast before the oxide layer forms. 

Here's an example. These slugs were cast from 99.9% pure lead I purchased from roto metals through Amazon. 

Mold pics 12.1638492918.jpg


Those were cast just minutes prior to that picture being taken. But I've also cast MANY MANY items (not just slugs) using different alloy blends. I have 7 different molds for fishing weights (Do-it lead molds) where I've used wheel weights and other homemade alloy blends that incorporate antimony and tin. Those always come out with a more silver appearance than the pure lead castings. All I wanted was to know the hardness of the slugs. 
 
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Not sure what your question is. 

First word that comes to mind though: CAPITALISM. 

Yeah, it would be truthfulness in advertising if he stated some kind of tin:pb ratio, or some mohs #, but if somebody wants to buy them for his asking price without requesting info on their hardness, well, it's their money.

As for if you were in the wrong by asking him how hard they are? I see no issue there, simply a potential customer asking a relevant question. 

If you're insinuating he is dishonest by using the NOE mold developed by RSterne to make and sell slugs....I don't see an issue there. The "service" he is selling is the sourcing of lead and the components necessary for pouring slugs, the (potentially) subjecting himself to the lead fumes during pouring, the time invested in making them, etc. 

Some people have more sense than the money, others, more money than sense. Lots of us wouldn't have jobs if there weren't people in the world willing to pay someone for something they could do themselves, but just don't want to. 

Click to expand...

I have ZERO issue with him using the NOE molds. It was his response back to me that pissed me off. His insinuation about me wanting to hijack his personal R&D and how sophisticated his operation was, and how he has invested 100's of thousands of dollars in time, research, equipment, and metallurgy to achieve his product. 100's of thousands of dollars? Really? He's selling cast slugs on eBay from a publicly sourced mold he bought at NOE Bullet Molds in an Altoids tin. If you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on research alone, you're more than likely a multi-million dollar company. You'd probably have a fully operational website and a clientele base to back it up. 
 
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Maybe he is chrome plating them? LOL!

That might explain at least some of the hundreds of thousands of dollars... OK, maybe not... (chuckle)

Always follow your gut. If it doesn't look right, question it. If the response to your honest questions is hostile, that is all you need to know.

You might post a link so others can judge for themselves or simply make note NOT to buy from this person.

I have cast thousands of fishing jigs and even with antimony or tin added, they never came out like they were chrome plated!

P.S. I have never cast slugs or any projectile. Only fishing jigs.


 
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I think you overstepped,because all you had to do = look at his Feedback and see what other people said.

I think he overreacted towards you and you also have every right to be pissed.

You are an honest man,you question an honest man, you got more of an answer than you needed or wanted.

Truth be told there are too many people using other people hard work,That man is protecting his resource and money making business.

Gestalt my friend and you realize all is good and two wrongs do not make a right.


 
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I think you overstepped,because all you had to do = look at his Feedback and see what other people said.

I think he overreacted towards you and you also have every right to be pissed.

You are an honest man,you question an honest man, you got more of an answer than you needed or wanted.

Truth be told there are too many people using other people hard work,That man is protecting his resource and money making business.

Gestalt my friend and you realize all is good and two wrongs do not make a right.

Click to expand...

Please explain what you mean when you say "Gestalt". I doubt most folks have even heard of it and the meaning *can* vary depending on the person using the term.

Thanks!
 
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The reason I haven't posted his reply is because I wanted a consensus first. All I wanted was to know the hardness of the lead. He admits that he adds antimony and tin to his formula. When he tells me that he's spent tons of money and time creating his proprietary blend of alloys, he circumstantially admits that he's making an alloy blend. And anyone who casts slugs or fishing weights knows, any time you blend alloys in with lead, it ALWAYS makes it harder. Never softer. So for everyone on here who insinuated that I may be wrong by passing judgment on his slugs being an alloy blend solely off of appearance, my intuition and experience were spot on. It is in fact an alloy blend, and I knew it was based solely off of the appearance of the slugs. He confirmed that in his response. I've cast 1000's of slugs and fishing weights in pure lead, and in alloy blends. I know what each looks like- even freshly cast. I can tell from the super silvery look and the perfect poured appearance that they are an alloy blend. All he had to do was say, "I'm not willing to divulge the alloy blend and the ratios, but the BHN of the slugs is ...." After all, if he's spent 100's of thousands of dollars on research, he MUST be trying to achieve a specific BHN that accommodates both castability and softness. And you would KNOW that number. The ratios are readily available online where you can easily calculate the final BHN of a slug before you even cast it by weighing out the alloys prior to casting. I've done it. And the math is spot on. 

But I will post his reply back to me. Then I will post the back and forth between us. This was my question to him, and this was his reply:

Question: "Good afternoon. I'm familiar with the slugs you're selling on eBay as they are the Bob's Boat Tails from NOE bullet molds. I have zero issue with this as I've always wanted to try them in my .25 AF Condor, but I wanted to make sure they shoot well before I commit to the mold. So you're offerings are an answer to prayer. But I did notice that the slugs seem extremely shiny, so I was curious what your alloy blend was (antimony to tin to lead)? I don't want to buy them if they're too hard of an alloy, and I know that the addition of antimony and tin will make the lead pour much smoother when you cast it, but it also hardens the lead. Too hard and it's difficult to seat in the breech.

I was also wondering if you would be willing to sell a mix of the 41gr and the 50gr super HP slugs? Say 100 of each for $30? Thank you in advance for your reply."

His reply: "The answer to every question you just asked is proprietary information. Very soft alloy. Very shiny because of proprietary casting process. We don’t sell sample packs.

Thank you."

So tell me what you guys think about my question to him. Take into consideration what I wrote at the beginning of this thread. After hearing what you guys think, I will post our continued correspondence.....


 
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I think if you want to try his product, do so. your questions are fishing instead of asking exact points. If you want to know the casting's hardness make a purchase and test them yourself. I doubt you will trust anything he says, he is reluctant to answer and give away his information. You have doubted this product from your 1st look. You seem to want our backing in challenging this person and his product. I don't know enough nor wish to investigate it. I shoot several air rifles from break barrels to pcp's. But I hunt with Remington .280 express and protect with winchester 30/30. The 10/22 ruger is for the usual chores. I do not use .30 and larger air rifles. Load my own powder burner shells. I plink and pest control with air rifles. It's simpler to load my 10/22 ruger .22 long rifle magazine and my .280 express remington & 30/30 winchester cause I never run out of propellant, no air rings to start leaking,no hammer springs to adjust, my magazines don't hang up. My semi auto always functions. Air rifles were designed to fit between slingshots and the .22 lr rifle. They have been pushed to try and reach powder burners levels and only a few have done it. The .38 special is 200 ft lbs and the .357 magnum pushing 140 gr bullet in an 8" revolver barrel is over 700 ft lbs and I've stopped coyotes, put down some cattle and wild dogs with it. I relax with airguns, plinking scrap steel I hung here and there, remove pigeons from out buildings and a few prairie dogs from the pasture. But to protect stock, pets, and people I reach for the 30/30, It's always ready, it don't leak, loads with one motion, magazine's always full, reloads as I stalk and walk, low power scope with iron sights looking through my scope mounts. This is my own way of using air guns and powder burners. If you want to know the simplest, easiest, cheapest way to accomplish a task with only one man ask a farmer or rancher, they have been at it for over 100 years. Something needs "removing" it won't require a $2000 air rifle. I have Fx Maverick .22 cause Dad always said buy a reputable brand(FX) from a reputable dealer(Utah airguns), you will get quality and the dealer will stand behind it. Quality and reliability cost a little more. SOoo I'm only one man, this is my way, I don't waste my time picking at one man's add, for pellets I use JSB's HADES IN .22 & .25, they work and I don't shoot them by the hundreds although the kid and grandkids push a lot of airgun lead and they even manage to buy some pellets with their own money for more shooting time. I allow them the break barrels. They dream of the FX.
 
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Why wouldn't you ask those questions? Depending on the materials and your concerns it would be a good question.

People need to lighten up and be willing to help others. I get that he put time in and effort to get the slugs to look like they do. But if you have a customer that is interested you would think that you would be willing to make a customer happy.



I would just move on and ignore the individual. Find someone who is willing to help you out and not talk down to you.
 
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There seems to be two guys selling bob's boattails on ebay. One puts his name on them as if it were his design (the really shiny ones) and has some bad reviews about sloppy casting, no quality control and ignores customer complaints. The other guy's castings don't look as shiny but he has perfect feedback and is more customer oriented. He says his lead is the softest available. We should not say the name of the bad reviews guy because nothing good can come of it.

Was this your experience?
 
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Multiple people on here have commented that I should purchase the slugs to test them out instead of asking what the alloy blend is. Well, I was interested in 2 sizes of slugs. One pack was $25 and the other was $30. So you guys are telling me that instead of asking about the metallurgical makeup or the BHN of the slug, I should have just purchased them for $55 plush paid to have them shipped to check and see if they will work? Isn't it easier for the guy to just tell me.....?

heavy-impact: Yep. That's the guy.

So.... Here was the next back and forth correspondence on eBay between this gentleman and myself.

My response back after he talked about his super secret, proprietary alloy blend, and his unwillingness to even divulge the BHN: "You must be joking!"

His reply back to that: "Actually, I'm a business that invested hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment, research and development, trial and error, studies in metallurgical science, temperature and casting viscosity etc and YOU think it's cool to casually ask us to hand over all of that so you don't have to invest squat in developing your own process ... because you want to cast some pellets to shoot in your back yard. While you're being a completely self-important, unreasonable pain in the ass, why don't you email KFC and just ask them to hand over their secret recipe or, here's an idea ... call up Jaguar Motors and ask them to send you the blueprints and manufacturing processes to you so you can build your own car just like theirs. Who in the HELL do you think you are? YOU are the joke. I'm having ebay ban you from access to any of our 16 ads."

Now.... Tell me what you guys think about his reply back.
 
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Oh well. I'll tell you what he's doing he's running his molds really hot. His using enough zinc and or zinc to get good fill on his molds and his pellets are going to be hard. You can tell all of that from looking at them.

He's not very customer oriented I wouldn't buy from him if I were you and I got a response like that to a simple question. 
 
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OldCrow- I know he's using some sort of alloy (be it zinc, antimony, or tin) to help his slugs pour better. All 3 of those metals will harden the slugs. I just wanted to know the hardness. For him to assume I wanted to steal his "secret recipe" is ridiculous. I was more interested in how the slug would perform in my rifle than anything else. But I shoot an Air Force Condor. I have to seat the slug in the breech by hand. I don't have a cocking mechanism for mechanical assistance. In pouring my own slugs, I have made them with a ratio of .95% tin and .05% antimony to 99% pure lead. They were significantly harder than 99.9% pure lead, even with only 1% of the mix being those alloys. And you can definitely tell it's harder when you try to push the slug into the breech by hand. That's the ONLY reason I wanted to know the hardness. And based off of his picture I was positive it wasn't 99.9% pure lead. It was an alloy blend which 100% of the time leads to harder slugs. 
 
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