Those Super Long Shots..
- Thread starter azuaro
- Start date
Controversial? Sure it is but I understand your point and it is valid. However, I believe that it is somewhat narrow minded to classify everyone that is shooting game at and past 100 yards as unethical. Are there folks making videos or simply attempting shots at long distance that should not be doing so? I would say YES. Are there also folks that are extremely capable and practice alot that aren't lucky, but just good?? YES, these people do exist.
You reference your particular bow and what distance you limit yourself to. Does that mean that I am unethical for using a compound bow and shooting out to 50 yards? I also have a 30, 75, 100, and 150 yards ranges setup in my backyard for my rifles. I shoot my air rifles almost daily and spend the bulk of my time shooting at 75 and 100 yards. I have completely blueprinted and tuned each of my air rifles. I spend as much time with a ballistic calculator as I do shooting. I know from 0-150 yards where my guns shoot. How is that unethical? If conditions aren't condusive to making a particular shot, I don't take it. I have a number of centerfires that I use for varmint hunting groundhogs. I have taken more than I can count out to 700 yards. Is that unethical? Since you don't know each persons individual abilities, equipment, or anything for that matter, it is silly to state that "everyone" shooting far with an airgun is unethical!! I could make the statement that shooting a longbow is unethical at any distance because of the lack of energy compared to a modern compound. Your reply would probably be something like..... I have shot longbows for years and practice on a regular basis. I am more than capable of making ethical kills with my longbow. Same can be said by those of us that make shooting out to and past 100 yards with airguns a science, not luck or guessing!! You have set your limit at 45 yards or under with your .177 FT/Bench gun. I am glad that you know your limits. Sub 20fpe .177's are not suited to long range. The airguns that I shoot at 100+ range from a .22 that is a 48fpe tack driver to .25's that make upwards of 80fpe. No offense, but 45 yards on small game is boring with my guns. Once again, you practice out to 50 yards, I do it out to 150. My .22 probably has more fpe at 100 yards than your .177 has at the muzzle. Your view of this subject is a tad narrow minded.
You find shooting long stupid, unethical, crazy, whatever you want to deem it. I think that you need to broaden your horizons and realize that just because you disagree, doesn't mean you are right. I will assume that you take FT and maybe bench shooting rather seriously? You probably have alot of time and money invested in having the right equipment and knowledge to be competitive? Why is it so hard to believe that folks aren't doing the same with long range hunting? I could make a rude and narrow minded statement like.... "maybe you disagree with long range hunting because you are not capable of repeatedly making shoots on game at or past 100 yards" That would be a ridiculous statement!! Just as ridiculous as your statements about long range hunting.
You reference your particular bow and what distance you limit yourself to. Does that mean that I am unethical for using a compound bow and shooting out to 50 yards? I also have a 30, 75, 100, and 150 yards ranges setup in my backyard for my rifles. I shoot my air rifles almost daily and spend the bulk of my time shooting at 75 and 100 yards. I have completely blueprinted and tuned each of my air rifles. I spend as much time with a ballistic calculator as I do shooting. I know from 0-150 yards where my guns shoot. How is that unethical? If conditions aren't condusive to making a particular shot, I don't take it. I have a number of centerfires that I use for varmint hunting groundhogs. I have taken more than I can count out to 700 yards. Is that unethical? Since you don't know each persons individual abilities, equipment, or anything for that matter, it is silly to state that "everyone" shooting far with an airgun is unethical!! I could make the statement that shooting a longbow is unethical at any distance because of the lack of energy compared to a modern compound. Your reply would probably be something like..... I have shot longbows for years and practice on a regular basis. I am more than capable of making ethical kills with my longbow. Same can be said by those of us that make shooting out to and past 100 yards with airguns a science, not luck or guessing!! You have set your limit at 45 yards or under with your .177 FT/Bench gun. I am glad that you know your limits. Sub 20fpe .177's are not suited to long range. The airguns that I shoot at 100+ range from a .22 that is a 48fpe tack driver to .25's that make upwards of 80fpe. No offense, but 45 yards on small game is boring with my guns. Once again, you practice out to 50 yards, I do it out to 150. My .22 probably has more fpe at 100 yards than your .177 has at the muzzle. Your view of this subject is a tad narrow minded.
You find shooting long stupid, unethical, crazy, whatever you want to deem it. I think that you need to broaden your horizons and realize that just because you disagree, doesn't mean you are right. I will assume that you take FT and maybe bench shooting rather seriously? You probably have alot of time and money invested in having the right equipment and knowledge to be competitive? Why is it so hard to believe that folks aren't doing the same with long range hunting? I could make a rude and narrow minded statement like.... "maybe you disagree with long range hunting because you are not capable of repeatedly making shoots on game at or past 100 yards" That would be a ridiculous statement!! Just as ridiculous as your statements about long range hunting.
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First, my mention of a 75, 100, and 150 yard range were in reference to my rifles not bows. And, I fully understand how an arrow kills a deer. Stating the lack of energy of a longbow was maybe misunderstood, but they do produce energy all the same. I never said any thing about hydro shock. And yes, I understand that to.
What I don't understand is your constant reference to shooting birds at 100 yards and further? I never once said I am shooting sparrows. Matter of fact I never stated what animals I target with my air rifles. I also never stated that I have or have not shot an animal at a certain distance yet you reference 150 meters as that is the distance I am shooting sparrows?
My point is simply that people can and regularly do hunt animals at longer distances with air rifles and do it with a level of precision that some couldn't match at say 50 or 75 yards. There are also plenty of people attempting these long shots that don't know what they are doing and probably should STOP. But, you and I cannot stop anyone from doing what they want in the land of the free. I will agree that knowing your limits and being ethical is very important. Ethics and being a good steward of the land has always been very important to me. Again, I fully understand your point and youtube is full of videos that should never be made or posted, but that doesn't stop people from doing so. Your claiming that anyone shooting at animals at or past 100 yards is unethical and stupid is why I responded. Why, because you are wrong!! People can and do and are ethical and responsible!!
This is also the second time that you have attacked my posts and my credibility! You don't know me or what I can and can't do. Same as I don't know you or what you can or can't do. You are surely an older shooter that has seen and done alot, but being closed minded and claiming that what you can not do is impossible, unethical, or threatens the existance of air guns is crazy!! If restrictive airgun laws are created in this country, it won't be because I killed a groundhog at 100 yards or a squirrel at 120 yards. It will be because we put the wrong people in office!!
What I don't understand is your constant reference to shooting birds at 100 yards and further? I never once said I am shooting sparrows. Matter of fact I never stated what animals I target with my air rifles. I also never stated that I have or have not shot an animal at a certain distance yet you reference 150 meters as that is the distance I am shooting sparrows?
My point is simply that people can and regularly do hunt animals at longer distances with air rifles and do it with a level of precision that some couldn't match at say 50 or 75 yards. There are also plenty of people attempting these long shots that don't know what they are doing and probably should STOP. But, you and I cannot stop anyone from doing what they want in the land of the free. I will agree that knowing your limits and being ethical is very important. Ethics and being a good steward of the land has always been very important to me. Again, I fully understand your point and youtube is full of videos that should never be made or posted, but that doesn't stop people from doing so. Your claiming that anyone shooting at animals at or past 100 yards is unethical and stupid is why I responded. Why, because you are wrong!! People can and do and are ethical and responsible!!
This is also the second time that you have attacked my posts and my credibility! You don't know me or what I can and can't do. Same as I don't know you or what you can or can't do. You are surely an older shooter that has seen and done alot, but being closed minded and claiming that what you can not do is impossible, unethical, or threatens the existance of air guns is crazy!! If restrictive airgun laws are created in this country, it won't be because I killed a groundhog at 100 yards or a squirrel at 120 yards. It will be because we put the wrong people in office!!
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Here is an example of someone not taking consideration for humane kills, and only testing the limits of the rifle.. This guy appears to just throw pellets at anything!
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Here is a video of AGN's founding father Ted!! He makes a clean kill on a pigeon at 150 yards in this video. So, is that unethical?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIklqgXi05A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIklqgXi05A
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I don't think the point here is that it's not possible to make a clean kill at those distances. It's just risky, that's all. There is a very high probability that wind and other factors can cause the pellet to hit in a different spot than intended. Is it worth the risk? In the video above, Ted could have just as easily hit the bird in the leg, and crippled it for life. In this particular example, he got lucky. If he had merely injured the bird, he probably would not have posted the evidence.
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Nothing is less exciting than shooting birds to me unless it's with a shotgun.Personally I guess if that's all you have to hunt around your area you take what you get! I personally just don't like firing my gun way up in the air not being to sure where the pellet will land....I'm sure most arnt that careless but it's still not something I would consider all that fun.Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.
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I guess I will help stir the pot a little too. I hope it is ok to post this link. It is showing suggested humane killshot distances for different guns and pellets.
http://www.crosman.com/pdf/CrosmanAirgunPelletCapabilitiesChart20120713.pdf
I don't agree with the chart for the most part, but then I'm not too smart and don't claim to be an expert on anything. Just something to read.
http://www.crosman.com/pdf/CrosmanAirgunPelletCapabilitiesChart20120713.pdf
I don't agree with the chart for the most part, but then I'm not too smart and don't claim to be an expert on anything. Just something to read.
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I think it just comes down to what accuracy you can get in practice with that rifle and at that range. I have a cz 455 22lr that i can easily put 1 in groups up at 150 yards from a bench in little to no wind and have shot game at that range. However this doesn't mean I take 150 yard shots unless the conditions are the same as when I was practicing from the bench. If it is windy i get closer or if i don't have a solid rest i get closer. I like to practice in all conditions from all positions so i know my limits. If you cant get good groups in practice then don't take the shot. Loving the topic by the way i like a good discussion.
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a few things to consider before I pass judgement on what is ethical shooting .Fact pellet guns are more accurate;powerful and with better optics now than they have ever been .I would bet that Ted and many of You shoot more pellets practicing in a month than I shoot in a year .With a lot of practice at long range shooting .Learning to judge the wind .I believe that it is possible to take long range shots and produce clean kills .With My skills I would draw the line at 75 yards with the FX Royal 500 that I own .On the other hand I will take a 400 yard shot with My sps 308 and have total confidence in a quick clean kill on a deer . I know the gun and can judge the wind .Some would say that is a risky shot but I know My limits .So I would say it is up to each shooter to know His equipment and skills and set Their Own limits .Stan
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There would not be need for laws if everyone was ethical and honest but, guess what we have lots of laws because not all people are honest and/or ethical...
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I personally have never "got" shooting a large animal with an arrow. Talk about cruel. What a horrible death by bleeding to death. It takes the animal a long time to die. I get it, the thrill and challenge for you to get close and use an "ancient" weapon to hit the right spot. I feel the same way about the longbow as you feel about long distance air rifle shooting! If you are to harvest a large elk shouldn't you honor it by a quick clean kill and not let the animal suffer for up to or over and hour to bleed to death? Who is being cruel? I don't condemn or judge you, just that large game bow and arrow hunting is not for me (my brother is an avid bow hunter), I will use a rifle for quick kill! However, like AJ, I am practicing to take small game at 75-100 yards. Just like there is an art to getting close and shooting with a long bow, there is an art to knowing your rifle, wind, and ammunition and taking game at greater distances. If you watch any of Ted's videos he can not get closer than 75 yards of the Silos or the pigeons will fly off.
I believe your point is we need to be ethical and know our equipment. We as air gunners need to be practicing the shots we will be taking before we shot at animals. Just like you need to practice your longbow long before opening day. Your point which is a good one, is to respect the animals we hunt and not take risky shots that could injure the animal and die hours or days later. Air rifles can be quite accurate; I just placed 4 shoots within a size of a quarter last weekend numerous times. The thrill you get getting 25 yards of an animal is the same thrill I get when I can consistently hit a quarter at 100 yards. Like you, it take practice to do that!
Your point again, which is a good one, is to respect the quarry we are hunting and not take shots we are unsure of. However, I would be wrong to judge you for shooting an elk with a long bow just like it is wrong of you to judge me for shooting a pigeon at 100 yard if both of us are quite capable to make an accurate shot.
I believe your point is we need to be ethical and know our equipment. We as air gunners need to be practicing the shots we will be taking before we shot at animals. Just like you need to practice your longbow long before opening day. Your point which is a good one, is to respect the animals we hunt and not take risky shots that could injure the animal and die hours or days later. Air rifles can be quite accurate; I just placed 4 shoots within a size of a quarter last weekend numerous times. The thrill you get getting 25 yards of an animal is the same thrill I get when I can consistently hit a quarter at 100 yards. Like you, it take practice to do that!
Your point again, which is a good one, is to respect the quarry we are hunting and not take shots we are unsure of. However, I would be wrong to judge you for shooting an elk with a long bow just like it is wrong of you to judge me for shooting a pigeon at 100 yard if both of us are quite capable to make an accurate shot.
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Sweet Jesus...what an incredible RANT! This is the kind of bullpoop that takes the fun out of these forums. Why don't you take your obtuse opinions and cast your dispersions on PETA's website, with the other huddled masses. Do you really think you're converting anyone's way of thinking here? I find nothing productive or educational, with all this rhetoric and crap slinging. This amounts to nothing more than your "little man" rendition of your OWN morals and ethics, which I'm sure 90% of us could care a rats ass about.
Just sayin!
Just sayin!
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Azuaro, you come to a forum created by Ted. The Holdover Man, the man that brought long range airgunning to the main stream and call him and everyone that partakes in similar types of airgunning " unethical and stupid"? If you disagree so much, than go else where. If it bothers you that much, you should find a forum that does everything you feel is ethical and meets your standards. Have you ever even shot a modern high powered airgun? Do you have any real experience to know just how capable these airguns are? Based on your description of how an animal dies when shot with a bow, I will make the assumption you have no clue about hunting and what happens when an animal is hit with an arrow. I have bow hunted for 20 years and not experienced what you described. Every deer, bear, coyote, or any other animal that I have shot with an arrow runs like hell till they fall over dead. But, instead of saying you are full of it, I will just assume that Elk and deer in Montana die much differently than animals in the eastern part of the country.
So, you are attacking every member who posts about long range kills? Why are you still here? You are smarter and more ethical than all of us. Why would you even insult your own intelligence by indulging such stupid and unethical folks? You claimed to me in a pm to have been a gunsmith/engineer for the USA olympic shooting teams. Surely your mind is open enough to realize that 100 yards with an airgun is not a big deal based on your experience. If you have ever killed anything with an airgun you should surely know just how little fpe is needed to kill critters. Come on dude!! Are you the one full of it, are you really all what you claim, or just someone trolling to cause trouble? I will take the later.
I killed over 50 squirrels last year with a .22 air rifle. This was actual hunting. I was in the hardwood forests of Ohio. Taking shots from 25-125 yards. After a whole season, and shooting those unethical 100+yard shots, I had 1 squirrel that I wounded and it got in a den hole. 1 squirrel the whole season. This was real hunting, no bench rest, nothing but me, my rifle, and the woods. That sounds horribly unethical? I also went out on 4 coyote hunts. After 4 hunts, I had 3 coyotes killed at 65, 92, and 103 yards. No misses and non wounded. This spring, I finally got out to do some pest removal for a bird farm. They raise pheasant, chukar, and quail. 12 groundhogs, 2 feral cats, and a coyote were taken off this farm by me with my airguns. The closest shot was 50 yards and all the rest were 65-130 yards. Zero wounded animals!! I am having trouble seeing how any of the above is unethical and stupid?? Really, all I see is a garbage argument from you. One with zero first hand experience to make a fact based argument on the legitimacy of shooting animals at long range.
This is my personal list and is not a reflection of the airgun public. Just my own opinion. Yrrah, Tofazfou, Wingman, and Ted are the top 4 names that come to mind when I think about long range airgunners that are the gurus and role models for my joy in airgunning!! These guys aren't just great shooters, they are ballistic geniuses, and leaders in the long range aspect of airgunning and airgun hunting. Your claims and statements indicate that they are all unethical and stupid. Pretty bold claims if you ask me!!
So, you are attacking every member who posts about long range kills? Why are you still here? You are smarter and more ethical than all of us. Why would you even insult your own intelligence by indulging such stupid and unethical folks? You claimed to me in a pm to have been a gunsmith/engineer for the USA olympic shooting teams. Surely your mind is open enough to realize that 100 yards with an airgun is not a big deal based on your experience. If you have ever killed anything with an airgun you should surely know just how little fpe is needed to kill critters. Come on dude!! Are you the one full of it, are you really all what you claim, or just someone trolling to cause trouble? I will take the later.
I killed over 50 squirrels last year with a .22 air rifle. This was actual hunting. I was in the hardwood forests of Ohio. Taking shots from 25-125 yards. After a whole season, and shooting those unethical 100+yard shots, I had 1 squirrel that I wounded and it got in a den hole. 1 squirrel the whole season. This was real hunting, no bench rest, nothing but me, my rifle, and the woods. That sounds horribly unethical? I also went out on 4 coyote hunts. After 4 hunts, I had 3 coyotes killed at 65, 92, and 103 yards. No misses and non wounded. This spring, I finally got out to do some pest removal for a bird farm. They raise pheasant, chukar, and quail. 12 groundhogs, 2 feral cats, and a coyote were taken off this farm by me with my airguns. The closest shot was 50 yards and all the rest were 65-130 yards. Zero wounded animals!! I am having trouble seeing how any of the above is unethical and stupid?? Really, all I see is a garbage argument from you. One with zero first hand experience to make a fact based argument on the legitimacy of shooting animals at long range.
This is my personal list and is not a reflection of the airgun public. Just my own opinion. Yrrah, Tofazfou, Wingman, and Ted are the top 4 names that come to mind when I think about long range airgunners that are the gurus and role models for my joy in airgunning!! These guys aren't just great shooters, they are ballistic geniuses, and leaders in the long range aspect of airgunning and airgun hunting. Your claims and statements indicate that they are all unethical and stupid. Pretty bold claims if you ask me!!
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I have been an avid bird hunter my whole life. As I stated before never liked the thought of shooting a large animal with an arrow. Been hunting deer with my brother many times but choose not to go with him when he takes his bow. If I had to choose to be stabbed or shot, I'll take the bullet. Why is it that you all wait an hour to go look for the animal. I dont judge but it's not for me. Like you, for waterfowl I like the birds close to ensure an accurate shot, there is no sport in sky busting and I don't like to cripple an animal. I don't take a life unless I intend to use or eat the animal. I don't have a problem with pesting just don't do it myself. I intend to pigeon/collared dove hunt. I shoot several times a week and have become confident in my shot at 75 yards. I have no problem shooting a pigeon at that range even with some wind. If it is a truly windy day, I will take a pass on the bird. I think you have made your point regarding practicing on live targets, however, we all have different beliefs and values. When I am confident in my shot at longer ranges, I will make that call.
Ethics is really what you want to bring out and that is knowing your skills,equipment, and current environment. In my opinion, a true hunter honors the game he hunts and shows the animal the respect it deserves. He dispatches his quarry quickly and uses the aminal wisely. He does not take a poor shot that could wound an animal. I think you would agree with that. Fortunately we agree on more items than we disagree. I personally don't think you are giving these "BB guns" enough credit. After shooting thousands of rounds through my .22 cricket carbine, I have become DEADlY accurate at 75 yards. Even if I am slightly outside the .925 center, I am still in the "kill zone". As a side note, I don't want to shoot a rim fire up in the air, I want the pellet to stay on the property. That's knowing your equipment and being responsible.
Thank you for the debate
Doc
PS I can't say for sure, but it would have been tempting for me to take that lizard if he climbed on my target. I take a pass on the wildlife behind my house. FYI- I think the gentleman regrets taking that shot.
Ethics is really what you want to bring out and that is knowing your skills,equipment, and current environment. In my opinion, a true hunter honors the game he hunts and shows the animal the respect it deserves. He dispatches his quarry quickly and uses the aminal wisely. He does not take a poor shot that could wound an animal. I think you would agree with that. Fortunately we agree on more items than we disagree. I personally don't think you are giving these "BB guns" enough credit. After shooting thousands of rounds through my .22 cricket carbine, I have become DEADlY accurate at 75 yards. Even if I am slightly outside the .925 center, I am still in the "kill zone". As a side note, I don't want to shoot a rim fire up in the air, I want the pellet to stay on the property. That's knowing your equipment and being responsible.
Thank you for the debate
Doc
PS I can't say for sure, but it would have been tempting for me to take that lizard if he climbed on my target. I take a pass on the wildlife behind my house. FYI- I think the gentleman regrets taking that shot.
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