This shows that the shooter is more important than the gun

Rick shooting the Hatsan Nova 25 cal. This shows that a good shooter proves that most PCPs are pretty close when it comes to accuracy. The 100 yard group and especially, the trick shots are very impressive, I have several modified Hatsan PCPs and I have said it here and on other forums that my groups stays the same size whether I shoot my high end guns or my hunting guns.

https://youtu.be/khIUkHpj098
 
If the newest technical improvement in golf clubs improves a golfers game then the newest technical,improvement in air guns should also improve ones score? 

Ha, ha. If you believe this then I also have bridges for sale, your choice of location. I am particularly fond of the bridge in Sydney harbor.

I'm very fond of that bridge as well... probably the one my daughter took a beautiful picture of the Opera House from. I'll take it, because I DO believe the newest improvements, if they are indeed accuracy improvements to the gun before the human factors are applied (and not just marketing hipe) will indeed on the average improve any shooter's score (well, at least group size, which will usually improve any target score over time).

Keep in mind, I am NOT saying minor hardware based improvements are the most effective place for a shooter who can't keep a reasonable hold to look for improvements to his scores or groups. I am saying the physics of it is the improvement to the gun is passed along to the final result and is still in there after the shooter has gotten involved. There are two primary sources of variability that contribute to our group size... hardware and fleshware. Without a doubt, most of us will by far get our biggest improvement in our score by concentrating on our biggest source of variability... us... the shooter. But, this does not in any way mean that improving the hardware will not provide that improvement to even the worst of shooters, all other things being equal.

To illustrate... let's presume when FX went from the standard Smooth Twist barrel, to the Smooth Twist X barrel, they saw on average a 1/2" reduction in group sizes (arbitrary number for the illustration). This is from some sort of bench device that eliminates the human factors that the shooter typically introduces. So let's say a machine rested or clamped Impact with a ST barrel fires a 1.5" group, and the same Impact with the STX barrel fires a 1.0" group, all other things being equal. Now add the shooter. If they are good enough to live in a perfect world, and off a bipod or the like they somehow add no more movement to the gun when it fires, they will also shoot the 1.5" or 1.0" groups, depending on the barrel used. If they are like the majority of us, they are going to add another amount of wobble that will, over a large enough sample size, cause the group to open up some. An excellent shooter with very little additional wobble may only add a 1/4" to the starting group size. Another shooter with lots of wobble may add 3" to the group size. The point is the variability is always additive. A given shooter has a typical amount his shooting opens the group up due to his particular human factors of hold, breathing, trigger control, etc.

Any shooter, holding his shooting characteristics constant between these two rifle setups can expect to see that 1/2" groups size reduction in the groups he shoots with the STX barrel. If he starts with a 1/2" smaller groups size, then adds his variability to the groups, he still finishes with 1/2" smaller groups sizes, purely as a result of the technical advancement he applied to the airgun.

Keep in mind that improving the hardware may improve your group sizes or scores, but it is in no way improving you as a shooter. Only reducing the variability introduced by your particular human factors makes you a better shooter, because that is independent of, and transfers to, ANY hardware. If you are saying the improvements from hardware advances are typically much smaller than those that can be achieved by improving the shooter, I whole-heartedly agree. If you are saying new technical hardware improvements won't improve a shooter's scores/groups, then I disagree.


 
If the newest technical improvement in golf clubs improves a golfers game then the newest technical,improvement in air guns should also improve ones score? 

Ha, ha. If you believe this then I also have bridges for sale, your choice of location. I am particularly fond of the bridge in Sydney harbor.

I'm very fond of that bridge as well... probably the one my daughter took a beautiful picture of the Opera House from. I'll take it, because I DO believe the newest improvements, if they are indeed accuracy improvements to the gun before the human factors are applied (and not just marketing hipe) will indeed on the average improve any shooter's score (well, at least group size, which will usually improve any target score over time).

Keep in mind, I am NOT saying minor hardware based improvements are the most effective place for a shooter who can't keep a reasonable hold to look for improvements to his scores or groups. I am saying the physics of it is the improvement to the gun is passed along to the final result and is still in there after the shooter has gotten involved. There are two primary sources of variability that contribute to our group size... hardware and fleshware. Without a doubt, most of us will by far get our biggest improvement in our score by concentrating on our biggest source of variability... us... the shooter. But, this does not in any way mean that improving the hardware will not provide that improvement to even the worst of shooters, all other things being equal.

To illustrate... let's presume when FX went from the standard Smooth Twist barrel, to the Smooth Twist X barrel, they saw on average a 1/2" reduction in group sizes (arbitrary number for the illustration). This is from some sort of bench device that eliminates the human factors that the shooter typically introduces. So let's say a machine rested or clamped Impact with a ST barrel fires a 1.5" group, and the same Impact with the STX barrel fires a 1.0" group, all other things being equal. Now add the shooter. If they are good enough to live in a perfect world, and off a bipod or the like they somehow add no more movement to the gun when it fires, they will also shoot the 1.5" or 1.0" groups, depending on the barrel used. If they are like the majority of us, they are going to add another amount of wobble that will, over a large enough sample size, cause the group to open up some. An excellent shooter with very little additional wobble may only add a 1/4" to the starting group size. Another shooter with lots of wobble may add 3" to the group size. The point is the variability is always additive. A given shooter has a typical amount his shooting opens the group up due to his particular human factors of hold, breathing, trigger control, etc.

Any shooter, holding his shooting characteristics constant between these two rifle setups can expect to see that 1/2" groups size reduction in the groups he shoots with the STX barrel. If he starts with a 1/2" smaller groups size, then adds his variability to the groups, he still finishes with 1/2" smaller groups sizes, purely as a result of the technical advancement he applied to the airgun.

Keep in mind that improving the hardware may improve your group sizes or scores, but it is in no way improving you as a shooter. Only reducing the variability introduced by your particular human factors makes you a better shooter, because that is independent of, and transfers to, ANY hardware. If you are saying the improvements from hardware advances are typically much smaller than those that can be achieved by improving the shooter, I whole-heartedly agree. If you are saying new technical hardware improvements won't improve a shooter's scores/groups, then I disagree.


I personally think PCPs reached their peek a long time ago as far as what the guns can do. The projectiles are the limiting factor. Let's look at the Crown. It will reduce flyers but you can do that by selecting good (undamaged) pellets. If you shoot pellets from a Crown at 100 yards, the same external factors such as wind will affect the accuracy just like any other gun. Sure under ideal conditions it will be more accurate at 100 yards than most PCPs. So you say the crown allows you to shoot slugs better than a regular choked airgun barrel. That's true, but there are many years of shooting rifled barrels and you can probably find a great shooting slug with these barrels also. Just look at guys like Napoleon, Cedric, Doug and other airgunners who have been shooting slugs for years and their custom guns will easily out shoot anything from FX or any of the major manufacturers.
 
I agree. There is no technology that one company has that another doesn't that allows them to shoot significantly more accurately. Its like vehicles, you spend more and you get a few bells and whistles but at the end of the day it still drives you from point A to point B...a 500$ pcp will drive a pellet to target just as accurately as a 2000$ pcp. Some just do it in better style...



Even High End PCP's have QC issues and part failure, and require the same maintenance as a lower end PCP (just like expensive cars) So the extra money doesn't buy you that.


Generally when paying an outrageous amount for something (80k+ for car / 1k+ pcp) you're paying more for Brand name than anything else. The bells and whistles themselves hardly ever justify the price point. JMO.



-Matt




 
" I personally think PCPs reached their peek a long time ago as far as what the guns can do ' just a fact there.

With very minor "work" - tighten things, polish things,minor tuning, say with little to no $ involved- I have owned a number of MOA airguns. I know because I have been able to hand them to people who shoot that well on a regular ( regular being key) basis. Had the worst time adjusg to a new bushnell 4200, took the rig to a match, first good shooter didnt even shoot before saying the reticule was just slightly canted.

Meeting nice people who shoot well is just one more reason to get out and meet other airgun folks. By chance 2 of the best Clock Skeet shooters I know are airgunners.



John