@blackdiesel...don't get me wrong, accessorizing and upgrading is cool, I'm not knocking it...that's just a chapter I'm done with...besides, after I get the Wolverine .303 Hi-Lite I'll have attained Nirvana.
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This debate about high end PCP vs Economy PCP - my perspective
- Thread starter blackdiesel
- Start date
Haha, no you won't......Nirvana is unattainable with our addiction!!!!!!LOL
I got a Thomas....but I still want more!!!!
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No worries- I'm speaking from my perspective. I've changed since I started in PCPs. I used to be all about the power, but now I don't worry so much about power. When I sent my 25 cal Cricket rifle to Allen Z for a tune, he asked me what I wanted it for. I told him I planned to use it for long range (100-200 yards plinking), and that he could use his judgement for the performance. He tuned it for 42 FPE with JSB Kings and it gets 73 shots on the regulator. At my level of shooting skill I can shoot the AT44 just as accurate as the Cricket. But if I compared myself to Allen Z I know the rifles would have some separation in accuracy. He use the FT sitting position when he tests accuracy. I probably could never replicate the 11 shot group at 70 yards he did with the Cricket. My main point is I guess- I can be happy with both an economy and high end PCP.
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@campfussell...I really will have. I'll be done with my collection....my 13 year old son, though, will need my help building his own collection...
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Well, I thought I was through after I bought the Thomas earlier this year, but then I discovered Bull pups ;-)
Time will tell! Wish you and your son the best brother!
Jimmy
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I have a few guns at both ends of the spectrum. I can say that they all shoot well, and can put game down easily. My BSA Scorpion .25 may not be a barn burner speed wise, but it is accurate, and can do that for 25 to 30 shots on a fill. The trigger is fully adjustable, and better than some higher end guns. The Vulcan tactic .25 is the biggest and most powerful gun I have. It is very consistent as you would expect from a regulated gun. I get about 35 full power shots per fill and at a good velocity. It will shoot 1/2" groups at fifty yards all day long. Then there is the Taipan Mutant, a high spec gun at a middle of the road price. It is my go to platform for nearly all I do with an airgun. It is powerful, quiet, super accurate, and will deliver an entire magazine into sub half inch groups at fifty yards all day long as well. The trigger is also the best trigger I have ever used. It is like a Swiss watch. On the lower end, I have my P Rod. Not a barn burner either, but accurate and super quiet with an aftermarket DonnyDu or Weihrauch LDC added to it. This configuration in the P Rod is quieter than a stock Mutant too! My point is, all of these guns deliver superb accuracy, with decent up, to extreme power. For me they all have a different role to play which for me is mainly pest control and informal target practice. While I am not sure we have ever seen a Mutant, or Vulcan on the winners list of the extreme bench rest competition, but I bet with some sorting and weighing of pellets, and some minor tweaking, they could compete.
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Interesting topic, but one that has been around for a long time....and I am certain that it will come back around again. At one time it was thought that ppl that buy mid-ragne air rifles it was because they could not afford the higher end stuff. That was not the case, to give an example hunterone makes $230K a year before bonuses. He has all Hatsans, 4 to be exact, why because they work for him, and he is happy with them. I do not tune rifles for a living just like doing it as part of the hobby, I also built RC Car and RC boat racing motors 2-stroke Nitro when I competed in both. I think its all about a person wants . I will say this.. with the high-end PCP rifles all the tuning and guess work is done along with nice stocks and machining. To keep cost down not so much for the Mid priced rifles.
A high-end rifle will come regulated shooting at the proper speed of the capabilities of the pellet. Barrel work done right, trigger nice, and a stock, as well as Pre- tuned. But the High-end stuff is not without its problems. There is no free lunch in physics......The Mid- range pcp rifles have caught on to some thing, What you might ask? Well there are only a few types of barrels that shoot pellets very well......The CZ, ST, and LW, those are your main three barrels that we have for air rifles that are sold with the rifles.
So in essence you can take any rifle that has one of those barrels, shoot it at a speed that matches the correct barrel and pellet speed a low ES and you will have an accurate rifle. The rest is up to you to do your part.
There is a little more to it for the lower-end rifles, take Hatsan for example...not efficient at all. Lot of power but needs to be tamed. With that said, and most have stated both can shoot the same good groups, just a matter of how you want to look and feel while doing so. Another question that has come into play is that why don't the tuned rifles shoot at the EBR? Most ppl that shoot these rifles do it to knock heads and have no interest in going and punching paper. I shoot groups just to see the performance of my rifles and to know its limitations. My .30cal I know that I can feel real good about taking a yote at 130yards, after that I would go to a slug rifle like the slayer or .257.
I have shot many many rifles, and at the end of the day we are all under the same umbrella, if a law passes that affects one...it affects us all. Therefore we should continue to support those who Hunt, BR, FT or what ever the case maybe. I do not do BR but when its in my town I help out as much as I can because we are one. Shoot what makes you happy... 1/2inch at 50 or an inch at 100 its all the same.
And the best "quote" My main point is I guess- I can be happy with both an economy and high end PCP.
A high-end rifle will come regulated shooting at the proper speed of the capabilities of the pellet. Barrel work done right, trigger nice, and a stock, as well as Pre- tuned. But the High-end stuff is not without its problems. There is no free lunch in physics......The Mid- range pcp rifles have caught on to some thing, What you might ask? Well there are only a few types of barrels that shoot pellets very well......The CZ, ST, and LW, those are your main three barrels that we have for air rifles that are sold with the rifles.
So in essence you can take any rifle that has one of those barrels, shoot it at a speed that matches the correct barrel and pellet speed a low ES and you will have an accurate rifle. The rest is up to you to do your part.
There is a little more to it for the lower-end rifles, take Hatsan for example...not efficient at all. Lot of power but needs to be tamed. With that said, and most have stated both can shoot the same good groups, just a matter of how you want to look and feel while doing so. Another question that has come into play is that why don't the tuned rifles shoot at the EBR? Most ppl that shoot these rifles do it to knock heads and have no interest in going and punching paper. I shoot groups just to see the performance of my rifles and to know its limitations. My .30cal I know that I can feel real good about taking a yote at 130yards, after that I would go to a slug rifle like the slayer or .257.
I have shot many many rifles, and at the end of the day we are all under the same umbrella, if a law passes that affects one...it affects us all. Therefore we should continue to support those who Hunt, BR, FT or what ever the case maybe. I do not do BR but when its in my town I help out as much as I can because we are one. Shoot what makes you happy... 1/2inch at 50 or an inch at 100 its all the same.
And the best "quote" My main point is I guess- I can be happy with both an economy and high end PCP.
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all i have to compare is fx vs marauder 22, marauder started out ok, much better than rws springer. But accuracy soon went away, i bought an fx to replace it. I have had a little trouble with fx but i have bought 3 more. my fx's are much more accurate than my marauder was.
a thought. When friends bring their guns to shoot, they probably bring the one that is shooting the best that day or week. i know thats what i do.
a thought. When friends bring their guns to shoot, they probably bring the one that is shooting the best that day or week. i know thats what i do.
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I don't have a high priced gun, my most expensive is my air arms s510, it's in the middle priced section, super accurate, realy nice to shoot, but the gun i shoot the most is a hatsan at44 i made tactical! The trigger is awful, the stock doesn't fit properly, but just so fun! And perfect in power, accurasy and feeling
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Thanks, the fact is that I love anyone with an air rifle, be break barrel or pcp no one is better then the other, we all shoot with air, we all use lead, and we are all kids on the inside.
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The economics of doing up a no frills air gun changes if you can do the work yourself. This is especially true for people who enjoy a diy project and whose time is not particularly expensive.
It's similar to "boy racer cars". There are people who invest time and money to upgrade the performance of cheap cars and, if they know what they are doing, they might be able to make their little Honda keep up with a BMW M5. If it's just about increasing the speed, those people might take a pride in knowing their made their $10,000 drive as fast as an $80,000 one. Then there are other people who will only ever see the cheap Honda and prefer the more refined look and feel of the BMW. To each his own.
I never had a problem with my Hatsan's accuracy. Even out of the box, it was sufficient for hunting. Not amazing but very functional. It was everything else that spoiled my enjoyment. Mostly the poor balance, the gritty action and the length (I have the QE).
I think the debate is changing over time though. Entry level brands are getting better and some of the high end brands are getting worse.
There was a time where the difference was that the high end brand was not mass-produced. There was an expert hyper enthusiast taking great care to make sure each unit was up to the highest standards. They didn't have the mistakes and rough edges of the $500 guns. There are still some smaller niche brands like that but there is now also some companies who still charge like it while putting out mass produced product with poor QC.
Now we are starting to see low cost air rifles coming with regulators, good tuning and premium barrels. It makes me wonder if there will be a time in the near future when we'll no longer be able to tell the difference between $500 and $1500 air guns.
It's similar to "boy racer cars". There are people who invest time and money to upgrade the performance of cheap cars and, if they know what they are doing, they might be able to make their little Honda keep up with a BMW M5. If it's just about increasing the speed, those people might take a pride in knowing their made their $10,000 drive as fast as an $80,000 one. Then there are other people who will only ever see the cheap Honda and prefer the more refined look and feel of the BMW. To each his own.
I never had a problem with my Hatsan's accuracy. Even out of the box, it was sufficient for hunting. Not amazing but very functional. It was everything else that spoiled my enjoyment. Mostly the poor balance, the gritty action and the length (I have the QE).
I think the debate is changing over time though. Entry level brands are getting better and some of the high end brands are getting worse.
There was a time where the difference was that the high end brand was not mass-produced. There was an expert hyper enthusiast taking great care to make sure each unit was up to the highest standards. They didn't have the mistakes and rough edges of the $500 guns. There are still some smaller niche brands like that but there is now also some companies who still charge like it while putting out mass produced product with poor QC.
Now we are starting to see low cost air rifles coming with regulators, good tuning and premium barrels. It makes me wonder if there will be a time in the near future when we'll no longer be able to tell the difference between $500 and $1500 air guns.
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Wow Zebra! Can't believe that's coming from you! The new Streamline may be a perfect example of what you just said! It may be a deterant of modding up a Marauder or Hatsan.
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I can understand why you would say that.
I definitely have a preference for a more refined air gun with less work needed to make it shoot well and good residual value. The flip side to that though, is that I really don't like spending top dollar on products with a disappointing finish and poor QC. I'm disappointed more than I am delighted these days.
If I spend more, I want more. It makes me foam at the mouth crazy when I spend $1500 and I receive a bunch of excuses in a box instead of a quality piece. This is why I hardly ever choose the wood stock versions because I get upset with the ugly plain Jane wood with no figuring and poorly cut inletting etc.
There is an increasing number of brands that don't seem to understand the quality requirements for the price point. $1500 for an air rifle is a lot. At that price, a Walnut stock should be an attractive grade and no mechanical faults should ever see a customer (because each unit should be tested) etc. nobody will ever convince me that this is wrong.
There are certain brands or models that offer some obvious value for the price point. The Taipan Mutant and the Daystate Huntsman, as examples, are two very different air guns but in both cases, I can see where the extra money went. They aren't just a ready-tuned Marauder. Nobody is going to match the experience by modding a $500 in their bedroom. Other brands should use these two guns as the benchmark. I know I do.
There are also examples where I can't see where they money went. I am not looking to upset anyone, I know that nobody likes to be told that their baby is ugly but an example of poor value for me is the Vulcan. Next to the Mutant and the Huntsman, it's $400-$500 overpriced. It just doesn't have the wood, or refinement to justify the extra cash IMO. The Walnut Galahad is another. The ones I have seen pics of have really plain wood for an $1800 gun. I don't see good value there.
This is where the lines might start getting confusing for the next gen. Maybe the gen 3 or gen 4 Marauder comes with a CZ barrel and a regulator for that same $500. At that point, companies still using low grade wood and careless machine work will find fewer customers will to spend $1500+.
As it stands today though, there is still a lot of clear water between the $500 and $1500 guns but they are catching up. That always happens in any industry if the guys at the top stand still. If the super cars from the 1950s would have stopped improving you would have Ferrari's being lapped by your average Chrysler of today...
When all new air guns are made entirely on CNC machines, as EDgun proudly tells us it's new pistol is, how will the expensive guys differentiate when there is no requirement for skilled metal and wood workers?
I could see a scenario where the larger companies that currently mass produce entry level rifles might be in a better financial position to invest in the best CNC machines.
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There is no substitute for a factory-engineered regulator. Aftermarket modifications result in inferior performance at best and severe bodily injury at worst. (Plus, speaking as an accountant myself, it is actually more expensive financially in the long run.) A regulator should be engineered into the gestalt of the system from its inception. Simply slapping-on an off-the-shelf regulator adversely impacts the performance of other components, often with catastrophic consequences.
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High end vs economy I've owned both,first gun was a Benjamin discovery .22 bought a TKO and power adjuster after two months I decided I didn't want to spend the money to make it a repeater ( accuracy was lacking also )so I bought a Marauder .25 talk about night and day but after watching Bwalton harping on these Hatsan and watching his videos I just had to have one so I bought a AT44 that was refurbished from Hatsan big mistake(spent 250 for regulators and tune chasing the type of accuracy he displayed )!!!! In hindsight his gun isn't stock he a true magician when it come to working on these guns but don't expect that type of performance out of box ,if I could do it again I'd buy the gun straight from him tuned and ready to go or buy high-end. I currently own a Kalibrgun Cricket.25 my Marauder .25 out of box was not any where near the power or accuracy. I understand that some of you guys are tinkers but I'm not I need it to be ready to go out the box. Just bought a Mutant never been tuned but I have killed about 20+ Squirrels dead accurate using a cheap 70.00 center point scope. At this point I'll only spend once no fixers uppers the Mutant was on sale 1150.00 in a .22 what more could I want !!!!! I'm definitely not a gun snob because every time I look a FX gun for 1900 I just can't see it.
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Marcella I would have to disagree with that.....I regulator has no magical performance weather it came with the rifle or not... No free lunch. A regulator does one thing and one thing only...It regulates. A chrono will tell you if the reg is performing properly if its is within 2-5fps its working well, most regulators that come with the rifle that I have seen has a much larger ES.
Yes as you stated "Simply slapping-on an off-the-shelf regulator adversely impacts the performance" yes It tightens up the groups when adjusted to the desired pressure and keeps the FPS.
Yes as you stated "Simply slapping-on an off-the-shelf regulator adversely impacts the performance" yes It tightens up the groups when adjusted to the desired pressure and keeps the FPS.
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An off the shelf Huma regulator made a JKHAN I had a tamed beast after I installed it. It went from a gun that had no bell curve, it was an ever decreasing curve for twenty five shots and then was spent. I added the regulator and the lower tensioned hammer spring, and it went to over sixty shots on a fill with a standard deviation of five. It was super accurate afterwards too. The JKHANS are hot from the factory, and need a regulator to perform their best. They are low to mid priced guns, and I am glad the regulator was available. The Huma reg is superb, and adjustable. I learned so much with this simple install.
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Zebra………..Wow! We agree again! That was really well stated. Being a lefty I would love to get a Vulcan but the stock has kept me back. I will say the new black stock does improve the look tenfold. I agree with you, for me, when the rifle is over $1,500.00 it needs the look good and shoot well out of the box.
I still like the Marauder and what can be done with it! LOL
I still like the Marauder and what can be done with it! LOL
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Even if one could manage to engineer a reg add-on that did not adversely impact long-term performance within the gestalt of the design, the financial cost would most likely exceed a factory engineered gun with an integral regulator, ceteris paribus. That's all I'm saying. I will stipulate that short-term metrics such as you've mentioned may indicate that performance has been improved, but over time the overall system will tend to degrade; much like sewing a new patch on an old garment.
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