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This debate about high end PCP vs Economy PCP - my perspective

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As the newbie to this forum, I am a bit concerned about jumping into what looks to be an issue gaining charge. I am a tinkerer by nature. I like examining a product, analyzing where corners were cut in production. Looking for a more optimized ways to do something, which in a factory environment, might be too time-consuming and labor intensive to reproduce at a reasonable cost. My labor time is my own, and if a few hours are spent to make something better, I am good with that. Blasphemy first; even the best air rifle could stand some improvement. After hand porting and polishing more than a few racing heads, it is clear that most products which handle air (valves, pathways, ports, etc) are not truly optimized from the factory. Nobody takes the time to do multi-bevel radius work on all edges and corners, true port matching on adjacent parts doesn't happen, rather, a template (or CNC) is used for these functions with an agreeable tolerance set. Regulators are wonderful things, and actually *reduce* stress on components, as the valve is no longer handling the full pressure from the air tank/tube, the valve spring can be lightened, the hammer can be lightened and the hammer spring can be lightened to reduce the overall force the hammer is hurled at to smack the valve stem. With a less brutal hammer strike, components are less stressed. With improved porting an polishing, the air released by the valve has a more efficient and less turbulent path to the back of the pellet. Everything is happier, quieter, and more efficient. Remember, when any system is less efficient, that loss is translated to heat/noise/component stress. Also, there are a variety of good products for taming hammer/valve bounce, with more on the way. Some guns handle it fairly well from the factory, others manage to get a decent shot count by virtue of oversized air tank(s). The best air rifles are the ones who generate the maximum number of shots at a specific FPE for a given tank volume and pressure; math shows they are more efficient and do it better/faster/cleaner. I.E. the penultimate air rifle renders 100 shots at 50 FPE on a 10 CC tank filled to 1500 psi. A sucky one delivers 25 shots, at 30 FPE with a 500 CC tank filled to 3500 PSI. I have never seen an air rifle this good/bad, the numbers are only examples. The point is, all air rifles can be improved, some much more than others. It is about the same amount of work to optimize any air rifle; the only question would be if it is important enough to the owner to undertake the effort. For those who wish a turn-key system, ready to fly at near-optimum numbers, I applaud your good sense. For those who wish to tinker and elevate a humble product, I respect your effort. I am certain neither answer is the only correct one.
 
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"marcella69"There is no substitute for a factory-engineered regulator. Aftermarket modifications result in inferior performance at best and severe bodily injury at worst. (Plus, speaking as an accountant myself, it is actually more expensive financially in the long run.) A regulator should be engineered into the gestalt of the system from its inception. Simply slapping-on an off-the-shelf regulator adversely impacts the performance of other components, often with catastrophic consequences.
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I say bull. The Huma reg and others have proven themselves. With the right approach, and knowledge they work well. My JKHAN install was relatively simple and well within the capabilities of anyone with some tool and mechanical experience. If not, have it done by a tuner. To state it impacts performance and other components is ill informed at best. They will typically flatten the power curve most PCP guns have, they also increase the shot count because many of the non-regulated guns like the JKHAN brands come hot from the factory. Mine was shooting very hot in .22 at 1037 fps from the factory, and needed to be lowered. Hammer spring tension was not enough to bring it down. The regulator AND a lower tension hammer spring was needed to tame it down to 920fps. As Bwalton said, a regulator does what it does...Regulate. It is not a simple task of bolting in any old regulator, there needs to be knowledge of caliber, velocity goals, and air cylinder capacity, and hammer spring tension. It is a balance of all the above. You can buy an off the shelf reg for the JKHAN, and many others. They are sized, and set up with specific power requirements based upon caliber. What I do agree with is that more companies such as Daystate, Air Arms, need more factory regulator options. That said, they can be added with simple skills.

 
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Actually, it is rocket science. By modifying the M-Rod with after-market add-ons to generate higher power, you are over-stressing the integrally-engineered internal parts, which are not designed to handle that high of pressure. This will cause parts to fail, often with catastrophic consequences. This is why modifying the design will void the warranty; it is not safe to do so. In the long run, it will cost you much more by jury-rigging than simply buying a rifle which has been holistically designed to deliver the performance you desire.
 
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I agree that most internal modifications will void the warranty. 

I disagree that airgun engineers have push their parts to the limit and leave no room for improvements. 

They're only is so many types of martials that manufacturer use and still be profitable. Most will source the same tubes, raw aluminum strength, orings, etc. to use on their guns. This goes for high and low end makers. 

A lot of airgun enthusiasts have found ways to greatly improve the performance and still be safe. Some manufacturers copy these same modifications into their next models. 

Just because it's less expensive. It's does mean it's not accurate or fun to shoot to get the job done. I honestly shoot my Mrod and Prod 80% more then my FX rifle. 

 
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"amoxom"
"marcella69"There is no substitute for a factory-engineered regulator. Aftermarket modifications result in inferior performance at best and severe bodily injury at worst. (Plus, speaking as an accountant myself, it is actually more expensive financially in the long run.) A regulator should be engineered into the gestalt of the system from its inception. Simply slapping-on an off-the-shelf regulator adversely impacts the performance of other components, often with catastrophic consequences.
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I say bull. The Huma reg and others have proven themselves. With the right approach, and knowledge they work well. My JKHAN install was relatively simple and well within the capabilities of anyone with some tool and mechanical experience. If not, have it done by a tuner. To state it impacts performance and other components is ill informed at best. They will typically flatten the power curve most PCP guns have, they also increase the shot count because many of the non-regulated guns like the JKHAN brands come hot from the factory. Mine was shooting very hot in .22 at 1037 fps from the factory, and needed to be lowered. Hammer spring tension was not enough to bring it down. The regulator AND a lower tension hammer spring was needed to tame it down to 920fps. As Bwalton said, a regulator does what it does...Regulate. It is not a simple task of bolting in any old regulator, there needs to be knowledge of caliber, velocity goals, and air cylinder capacity, and hammer spring tension. It is a balance of all the above. You can buy an off the shelf reg for the JKHAN, and many others. They are sized, and set up with specific power requirements based upon caliber. What I do agree with is that more companies such as Daystate, Air Arms, need more factory regulator options. That said, they can be added with simple skills.




Its funny but you guys said the same thing? @amoxom your counter point really says the same thing as @marcella69. Just sticking things into a pcp wont always work you have to "tune" a number of things to make them work together. You can be a backyard engineer and a good one at that. I'm not saying adding just reg by itself is bad but that's just one step if you really want a rifle to be the best it can be. Of course the flip side is when you look back and see you put $1,000 in a mrod and its still a mrod. ;)

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Goodtogo, you have admirably addressed both of my salient points; that is, both the accounting and engineering sides. As an electrical engineer in a prior life, I can assert empirically (and also pursuant to professional standards) that each and every component in a system is chosen to be compatible within the tolerances (plus fudge factors) of each and every other component, as well as that of the gestalt. Introducing an extrinsic component into an engineered system, relying on fudge factor for indemnification, is a dangerous proposition. Given the complexity and vagaries of the plethora of unique airgun systems, even a modification as seemingly innocuous as adding a regulator can adversely ripple throughout the system. I have, at this point, exhausted by capacity to make a cogent argument re my position. People will continue to monkey around with engineered systems to their detriment (and those in proximity) regardless of how probative and illustrative counter arguments and empiricism may be, respectively.
 
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"Dairyboy"For $700 bucks I put together a 40 fpe 40 shot Mrod with roughly 190ccs of air that shoots lights out. What other gun can do that for $700 from factory? I really don't see how adding a reg to a factory unregulated gun can cause issues down the line??? It's not rocket science and don't see how they can be dangerous whatsoever.
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These aren't far off:

http://www.rlairgunsupply.com/air-guns-air-rifles/jkhan-majesty-mk2-black-sepatia-.25-cal/

Plus, unless you plan to keep the gun forever, you have to look at the cost of ownership. You don't get back cash invested in modding air guns and if you choose wisely, you can get a high end gun with good residual value and end up with a better gun for similar or even less cash lost. 
 
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Zebra,
You got me curious about the JKhan Majesty MK2.
​Here is someone's published shot string (IronCross6921).
Begin quote***************
182cc
200bar
2900psi
(No tuning as I got it straight out of the box)
Pellet used was Benji .25 dome 27.8gr
Mag 1
840
853
853
854
862
861
864
864
864
865
Mag 2
860
862
845
837
825
816
809
Stopped at this point
*************end quote
​12 shots within 2 percent extreme spread (ES). Mid-line Energy is around 45 FPE. The tune looks like the classical Korean Cliff.
​I am pretty confident my tweaked 25 caliber Marauder could give me over 30 shots at 45 FPE (with a 2 percent ES). Admittedly the Marauder air tank is 190 CC, as versus the 182 CC in the Majesty. I do really like how the Majesty looks; it clearly wins in that category.


 
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Yeah im not going to sell my Mrods though those are my guns that I have put the time in to tear apart and do the little work and add some stuff to come out with something that'll rival plenty of other guns costing much more. Don't get me wrong I just ordered a RAW .30 im all about having a nice gun that will be great out of the box however there's something about taking a cheaper one and making it way better with alittle time and money. Making things better and tinkering and upgrading is in my blood. Others it's not and that's fine as I too appreciate it as well. Im with blackdiesel with that it's fun to have both.
 
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The facts really are that some of us like the Marauder platform and yes we want to modify them to make them better. It is partially the lure of this rifle. Yes, I know I won't get my money back out, but, I DON'T CARE! I have no plans to sell my .22 Maruder! Matter of fact, I just recieve a .25 Marauder and a HUMA regulator this week and plan on doing it again. I also like paying under $20 for a magazine. Many of you will shake your head and say, "it's just a Marauder". However, my Marauder beat out over 50 other shooters (came in 22 place- no Sportsman Class) at Extreme Benchrest in the 25 meter this year! This was my very first time competing; I wonder how it would have done with a more experienced shooter. Zebra does makes a good argument with rifles like the Streamline coming out which are regulated and costing under a grand, this may change the playing field.

Marcella being an engineer, I'm sure you are aware of OSHA and over regulation (usually it's over kill) in regards to safety. We as individuals need to do our due diligence prior to making these adjustments (and most of us do). Many of the levels we are working at are well below the "critical" level. For example, most air cylinders are tested to at least 5,000 psi, however most of us have enough sense to not fill to that level. 

Like you, I have an advance degree but it does not make me an expert in pneumatic science. Using big words and effectations does not validate my point either. I save the "Big Lingo" for nasty letter to Insurance Companies trying not to pay. I keep it simple when trying to make my point to my friends and patients! For the last two years, I have done an exhaustive research in pneumatic rifles. The Marauder platform (and Falcon) has helped me to understand pcps better. Having a friend who has done pneumatic projects for both NASA and Disney has also helped greatly. More importantly, guys like AJshoots and others on this forum, have been a wealth of knowledge and tremendous help. My father who was an uneducated man yet built a machine with over 20 miles of pipe. He literally chased the engineers off the project because they were telling him he couldn't do it. WELL HE DID, TWICE! He built two Scarfing Machines for steel mills in Indiana and Utah.
So for those who don't want to mess with tuning and modding, by all means don't. Please don't judge the ones that do. Many of these tinkerers have changed this hobby for the better, many without a degree. If you want to learn about pneumatic rifles, talk to Aaron, AJshoots. There are also many others on this forum like Dairyboy and Addertooth. As I said before there is an entire forum devoted to the Marauder, again a wealth of knowledge. 

The real issue for me is that this is an AMAZiING hobby where the learning is infinite. From the internal workings, the ballistics, scopes. playing the wind, trajectory, shooting style and on and on, I can't get enough! One can focus in whatever area you want. For those that just want to shoot, GREAT! I am trying to understand the rifle itself currently. Yes, I have the money to buy a RAW (I probably will buy one), Daystate, or FX, but right now I'm having fun with the Marauder and my Falcons . I want to know eveything I can now about the workings of the rifle. I will probably get a P-rod to mod up. I have plenty of time to focus on the "next" amazing generation of rifle later. For thoughs that thumb their nose at the Marauder here are a few pictures for you.
"Doc" the NMshooter
50 yard 5 shot group:
[url="http://i.imgur.com/6zctvVq.jpg"][img]http://i.imgur.com/6zctvVq.jpg[/img][/url]

50 yard kill shot:
[url="http://i.imgur.com/DCuNPLp.jpg"][img]http://i.imgur.com/DCuNPLp.jpg[/img][/url]
 
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Dairyboy or Addertooth would be your best help. My hope is to get 30 shots with a HUMA at 865 fps. You will most likely have to tune it to around 800 fps to get max shots. Wihout a regulator it will be tough to get more than 16-20 shots. I would also check the Marauder forum as well for suggestions. Somewhere I have a post about tuning. You can always send it off to Scott "Motorhead" to have it done. He did a GREAT job on my .22. If you need his number send me a PM. 
 
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"Goodtogo"
"amoxom"
"marcella69"There is no substitute for a factory-engineered regulator. Aftermarket modifications result in inferior performance at best and severe bodily injury at worst. (Plus, speaking as an accountant myself, it is actually more expensive financially in the long run.) A regulator should be engineered into the gestalt of the system from its inception. Simply slapping-on an off-the-shelf regulator adversely impacts the performance of other components, often with catastrophic consequences.

Click to expand...
I say bull. The Huma reg and others have proven themselves. With the right approach, and knowledge they work well. My JKHAN install was relatively simple and well within the capabilities of anyone with some tool and mechanical experience. If not, have it done by a tuner. To state it impacts performance and other components is ill informed at best. They will typically flatten the power curve most PCP guns have, they also increase the shot count because many of the non-regulated guns like the JKHAN brands come hot from the factory. Mine was shooting very hot in .22 at 1037 fps from the factory, and needed to be lowered. Hammer spring tension was not enough to bring it down. The regulator AND a lower tension hammer spring was needed to tame it down to 920fps. As Bwalton said, a regulator does what it does...Regulate. It is not a simple task of bolting in any old regulator, there needs to be knowledge of caliber, velocity goals, and air cylinder capacity, and hammer spring tension. It is a balance of all the above. You can buy an off the shelf reg for the JKHAN, and many others. They are sized, and set up with specific power requirements based upon caliber. What I do agree with is that more companies such as Daystate, Air Arms, need more factory regulator options. That said, they can be added with simple skills.




Its funny but you guys said the same thing? @amoxom your counter point really says the same thing as @marcella69. Just sticking things into a pcp wont always work you have to "tune" a number of things to make them work together. You can be a backyard engineer and a good one at that. I'm not saying adding just reg by itself is bad but that's just one step if you really want a rifle to be the best it can be. Of course the flip side is when you look back and see you put $1,000 in a mrod and its still a mrod. ;)


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Disagree again. Marcella said putting in an off the shelf regulator only will adversely affect other components and could result in catastrophic failure, plus it would have inferior performance. I countered that claim because it is not accurate or true. They won't impact your gun or your person adversely, or lower the guns performance. The high pressure air is still there in front of the the regulator. Behind it, regulated air will be lower pressure going into the valve, it will be more consistent, and better able to be leveraged with hammer spring manipulation to extend shot count and flatten the shot curve. What can harm any internal parts or the person catastrophically doing that? If anything, a reg can lower stress on parts. A HUMA reg is about a hundred bucks, a factory one could be more as an option. This option and a dollar for a spring from Ace Hardware to replace the stock hammer spring to a lower rating was all I needed to tune a JKHAN rifle I had into a consistent tack driver. It shot lights out for over sixty shots. I doubled the guns shot count, and made it super consistent. It was a minimal investment, and half an hour of time to do, but an amazing improvement in performance. Now could HPA hurt someone opening up a gun to install a reg if they don't know what they are doing? Sure, absolutely could happen.
 
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