Airgun Technologies The Future of Springers – Are We Still in the Game?

[Rob_in_NC]

This debate has been going on for as long as airgun forums have been around at least.

The only real advancements to springers have been a magazine... Theoben SLR, Gamo and some others... gas rams... opposing springs, sleds, other things to make the felt recoil less.

The market just isnt there. Have you ever been to an airgun show? Look around....most are older folks.

Any 'advancements' now are from Gamo, Umarex and others and are mainly cosmetic to appeal to a younger generation or those hoping to get '.22LR performance out of an airgun' through inflated velocity numbers using pellets that weigh about the same as a decent sized rat turd.

Fortunately, one can still get good HW's, Beemans and RWS guns other non China or Turkey garbage. ...and before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I have had my share of China and Turkish guns. Have had my share of a lot of guns.

The fairly recent evolution of affordable PCP's and equipment to support them has hurt springers for sure. It wasnt long ago that the 'budget' PCP option was a BSA Techstar and a $200 pump hand pump. Nowadays, hand pumps (that are just as good, if not better) are less than 50 bucks. Compressors are widely available, though that seems to be a hobby in itself to keep them running, and PCP's can be had for cheap.

There will always be a market for a good springer, but unfortunately, that market is small and easily satisfied through buying used. There just isnt money it it for manufacturers.

Have to laugh at the idea of a fuel injected springer. Love the discussion and out of the box thinking, but producing on a large (or even small) scale? Wouldnt hold my breath on that one.

 

[MDriskill]

I'm not sure if we're talking about the future here or past, all I hear is "we're happy with what manufacturers currently offer on the low end and we want even less."
This would be the type of thinking that will kill Springer Technology. We might know what a springer is and can offer, but a newcomer looks at the paper and says, "Why would Anyone buy such things !!?"
Now I understand you guys are plinking for the most part and don't need power, but at the end of the day, a gun is made to reach out, penetrate, and destroy the target; otherwise, it enters the toy category.
I myself am also happy with some of the current models; however, I'd be happier if I saw some very nice upgrades to the current tech, which I'm going to explain below:

1) Chockless 4.5mm (.177) Sprigners:
Let's take your average HW95 Luxus in 4.5mm(chockless), which shoots the 10.0gr JSB slugs like a laser.
This will increase the maximum effective range of that gun from 40m to something like 75 to 80m.
+ Easy to implement (One step less in barrel making)
+ Pushes the rifle into a new category and range without any extra cost.

I believe it's time to move on from pellets now; they are a 19th-century projectile for smoothbore slow guns; such a waste to spend all that pure spring energy in air drag.

2) New Tech: To get the high reliability and standalone operation of Springer + Way more Oomph + Jentle shot cycle, we need to add some Heeeaaat.

a) First, we need a narrow chamber along the main tube to store our high-Cetane Diesel fuel. (I know, I know, just hear me out for sec : )

b) Then, a fuel injector, which sprays a controlled amount of fuel in the main tube every time we cock the rifle, thus atomizing the fuel and creating a perfect air-fuel mixture.

c) The piston has no rubber seal; instead three piston rings around the head area, like a piston in an engine, thus no more burning of seals, or maybe use a high-quality, high-heat-resistant rubber seal.
Diesel engines run maybe 100,000km before replacing piston rings, so if that is used, it will shoot for eternity, but it needs oiling, which is simple to add.

d) There is a mechanism that locks the piston at the end-of-travel to avoid backlash from the firing pressure; this latch lives at the middle of the main tube, where the cocking channel ends.

e) No chocks, heavy slugs, and a can of that green energy drink(for the gun), I would not touch a single PCP I swear it.

+ Cheap to maintain, cheap to operate, but fruitful.
+ Dual personality: use fuel and you have a fire breather, and don't use fuel(close the valve) and you have a nice springer.
+ Extremely legal to carry around and shoot everywhere (close the valve when Karens arrive.)
+ A mechanical Marvel.

- I need a Lathe, a Mill, and a Diana 460 Magnum to bring it to life.

And I'd like to call it the " Diana 460 Deisle Magnum "

Enhanced dieseling is not a new idea. You might find it interesting to google "EL 54 Barakuda."

 

[borne2fly]

The reason I don’t see any of the above catching on is because PCPs already do what a “diesel springer” will do, and are much less complex (believe it or not). Adding fuel, injectors, latches, etc. will make things just as complex as a PCP, just in a different way.

For me, I *WANT* the simplicity and lower-power of current springers precisely because they’re simple and lower-power. People in the UK hunt all day long (and quite effectively) with sub12 air rifles, no reason we can’t over here. If I want more power, that’s where the PCP comes in.

Also, I have no interest in having a liquid fuel tank and source of ignition right next to my face. I have yet to be on fire and prefer to keep it that way. I know weed-eaters are the same idea, but they’re not right next to my face. I dunno, I just don’t like the idea, personally. And I agree it would get classified as a firearm because the Alphabet org loves to step out of bounds whenever they can!

I appreciate the out of the box thinking, though!

“Alphabet org”
I’m sure you typed something like “Ay Tee Eff” but for some reason this site won’t allow that character string and changes it as soon as you post.
Try editing to change it, and it auto-corrects right back to “Alphabet org”.
Any other “forbidden” strings in here?
Where’s the “list”?

 

[jkingrph]

Enhanced dieseling is not a new idea. You might find it interesting to google "EL 54 Barakuda."

I have read about those on and off for 50 years now. I understand that you needed small glass ampules of ether, which are no longer available. It was commonly called a diesel rifle. I just wonder what it did to seals and springs.

 

[Basher]

“Alphabet org”
I’m sure you typed something like “Ay Tee Eff” but for some reason this site won’t allow that character string and changes it as soon as you post.
Try editing to change it, and it auto-corrects right back to “Alphabet org”.
Any other “forbidden” strings in here?
Where’s the “list”?

Hahaha, I DID type that particular string of letters, but I had no idea it autocorrected and “wasn’t allowed.”

But either way, FATF!

 

[borne2fly]

Hahaha, I DID type that particular string of letters, but I had no idea it autocorrected and “wasn’t allowed.”

But either way, FATF

Yeah, I did the same thing. Now I’m wondering how much more of this there is.

 

[MDriskill]

I have read about those on and off for 50 years now. I understand that you needed small glass ampules of ether, which are no longer available. It was commonly called a diesel rifle. I just wonder what it did to seals and springs.

"EL 54" was the name of the ether-injecting mechanism. Theoretically it could be applied to any springer, but I've only ever seen them on the HW 35; those guns had "Barakuda" stamped on the breech block in place of "HW 35."

The Barakuda was very successful, and not on the market very long. Power was high but inconsistent and violent. Legend has it that the gun was responsible for the invention of Weihrauch's plastic breech seal (it shredded leather ones), and the heavy H&N Barakuda pellet (it blew the heads off normal ammo - your other option was solid balls).

Read more here: https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2023/11/weihrauch-barakuda-model-el-54/

 

[mightyox]

If I’m hearing you right … modifying an airgun into a single cylinder fuel injected engine, essentially taking full advantage of its existing tendency to diesel.
I do like these sorts of ideas.
The Feds might declare this a “firearm” because it’s capable of ignition by simply flipping a switch. They’re funny about that sort of thing. I say this because I have a Baikal Makarov air pistol which I understand is no longer available in the US because it’s made on the same line as the 9mm Makarov and “can possibly be modified into a real firearm”.
Well …. possibly, and definitely not easily. But it would be much cheaper to simply buy a real Makarov which, ironically, IS still legal to buy.

Thats cool. I have a makarov pistol, had no idea they made a pellet gun.

 

[borne2fly]

Thats cool. I have a makarov pistol, had no idea they made a pellet gun.

It’s actually a BB gun, but it has a rifled barrel.
I’ve never shot steel BBs through it for few of messing up the rifling. Instead, I rack it back and hand feed the breech lead pellets, and it’s surprisingly accurate.
Moreover, it’s all steel, not alloy, not plastic (except the grips).
The MP-654K …

 

[JaketheMeatGOD]

If I’m hearing you right … modifying an airgun into a single cylinder fuel injected engine, essentially taking full advantage of its existing tendency to diesel.
I do like these sorts of ideas.
The Feds might declare this a “firearm” because it’s capable of ignition by simply flipping a switch. They’re funny about that sort of thing. I say this because I have a Baikal Makarov air pistol which I understand is no longer available in the US because it’s made on the same line as the 9mm Makarov and “can possibly be modified into a real firearm”.
Well …. possibly, and definitely not easily. But it would be much cheaper to simply buy a real Makarov which, ironically, IS still legal to buy.

You are pretty much correct.

 

[JaketheMeatGOD]

The reason I don’t see any of the above catching on is because PCPs already do what a “diesel springer” will do, and are much less complex (believe it or not). Adding fuel, injectors, latches, etc. will make things just as complex as a PCP, just in a different way.

For me, I *WANT* the simplicity and lower-power of current springers precisely because they’re simple and lower-power. People in the UK hunt all day long (and quite effectively) with sub12 air rifles, no reason we can’t over here. If I want more power, that’s where the PCP comes in.

Also, I have no interest in having a liquid fuel tank and source of ignition right next to my face. I have yet to be on fire and prefer to keep it that way. I know weed-eaters are the same idea, but they’re not right next to my face. I dunno, I just don’t like the idea, personally. And I agree it would get classified as a firearm because the Alphabet org loves to step out of bounds whenever they can!

I appreciate the out of the box thinking, though!

Well, the first argument can be upscaled from PCP to powder burners, but still, the high-power PCP market is skyrocketing.

I would say a simple no-regulator single-shot pcp like Airforce Condor/Talon is simpler than a good springer, and you can tune the pcp to low power to get a huge shot count, but you still buy the springer - right?
I have hunted with 7 Joules(5ft-lbs) up to 30 Joules (~22ft-lbs) springers for an extended period of time, and I know how it goes; low power is a luxury for woodland, not open country.

about the danger of liquid fuel => if you have a lit match or a stick that you want to put out, you can submerge it in diesel fuel. (You can try that at home.)
The same argument can apply to PCP and then the Powder burners. The reason we don't worry about these things is because we engineer things and calculate to have a huge safety margin; its danger is not even close to the other two types of energy cells, yet it has way more energy density than the other two :
Powder energy density =~ roughly 5 to 8 MJ/Kg (Mega Joules per kilogram)
Diesel =~ 36 to 40 MJ/Kg
Air is dependent on pressure and volume, but you know it's lower than both.

Thank you for your insight, makes for a better conversation.

 

[JaketheMeatGOD]

This debate has been going on for as long as airgun forums have been around at least.

The only real advancements to springers have been a magazine... Theoben SLR, Gamo and some others... gas rams... opposing springs, sleds, other things to make the felt recoil less.

The market just isnt there. Have you ever been to an airgun show? Look around....most are older folks.

Any 'advancements' now are from Gamo, Umarex and others and are mainly cosmetic to appeal to a younger generation or those hoping to get '.22LR performance out of an airgun' through inflated velocity numbers using pellets that weigh about the same as a decent sized rat turd.

Fortunately, one can still get good HW's, Beemans and RWS guns other non China or Turkey garbage. ...and before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I have had my share of China and Turkish guns. Have had my share of a lot of guns.

The fairly recent evolution of affordable PCP's and equipment to support them has hurt springers for sure. It wasnt long ago that the 'budget' PCP option was a BSA Techstar and a $200 pump hand pump. Nowadays, hand pumps (that are just as good, if not better) are less than 50 bucks. Compressors are widely available, though that seems to be a hobby in itself to keep them running, and PCP's can be had for cheap.

There will always be a market for a good springer, but unfortunately, that market is small and easily satisfied through buying used. There just isnt money it it for manufacturers.

Have to laugh at the idea of a fuel injected springer. Love the discussion and out of the box thinking, but producing on a large (or even small) scale? Wouldnt hold my breath on that one.

I'm young and still interested in springers. I love the look, I love the feel. From my limited experience with hunting with Kral PCPs, I found them to be kinda Dry, didn't excite me as much when I hunted doves, but I'm sure a high-quality high-power PCP will be more fun.

We don't know how exactly the market would react. However, show them a .25 cal diesel that puts a hole through a propane gas tank and I bet people would be cheering like little girls; that's just what men like.

I'm 100% with you on Turkish and Chinese junk, though.

 

[JaketheMeatGOD]

Enhanced dieseling is not a new idea. You might find it interesting to google "EL 54 Barakuda."

True, but from the reviews seems like they did not design it properly.
Inconsistency is not tolerated here.
I remember there was an engineer on another forum who experimented with the simple dieseling method and found out that unboiled linseed oil is the best candidate; I think he got around 60% more power with very good consistency.