Sure it's cool.......But

I got an $900 drone that I can't even find a place to fly it legally within 50 miles of the house. Give the Feds an inch and they will take a mile/

John


Guess you boys ain't heard about the FAA getting up a new proposal that if it passes and becomes a law ALL drones and or RC aircraft, ie Planes, Heli's, etc that weigh over 5.5 ounces will have to have a TRACKING ID beacon that lets the FAA know where your drone is every time you want to fly it. And with that being said, there will be restriction zones worse than the ones around local airports.

Some believe it is deep pockets aka "amazon" who is behind all this so they can have the skies to themselves when they start drone package delivery.

I say it's just more over reach from an already over reaching government.

Ray
 
Who here remembers the "fps wars" some decades back? In fact, it's only in the last 5 years or so that the core airgun enthusiast community really revisited the whole speed=success formula that drove manufacturers (for the US market) to keep upping the claimed velocity of their magnum guns. 1200 fps, 1400 fps, now even 1600 fps while still using diabolo pellets led only to instability in the flight path and larger POI groups. Now we read and hear "shot placement is the key" while reducing our pellet velocities to something more in line with the UK and mainland EU.

Point being, the market is nothing more than the people who comprise it, and people will always chase after the "next big thing". As it happens, improved barrel manufacture, air consumption efficiency, shot count, increased BC ammo in the form slugs, larger bores to legitimize taking larger game, and air sourcing have all been addressed across the airgun buying spectrum over the last decade. What became the next unicorn for the avid airgunner? Speed of repeatable, accurate shots. Side levers replace bolt actions... PCPs replace break barrels... semi-auto comes out of the shadows and storms into the major shows and events. Now we have Full Auto coming out of the brilliant minds of manufacturers around the world, with a side order of high-performance slugs added on.

Larger bores for hunting? Yeah, makes perfectly good sense from a wildlife conservation standpoint. Semi-auto without decreased accuracy? Yeah, for reliable follow-up shots in hunting and pesting situations. Plus they're just plain fun. Slugs instead of pellets? Same hunting/pesting reasoning applies. I'm all in for these innovations.

Full auto in anything more than a BB gun cannot be rationalized for me. Unlike Alfred Nobel whose development of dynamite was envisioned to be a boon to man in road building and other large projects, John Browning and his contemporaries had nothing but the neutralization of an enemy on the battlefield as their primary (almost singular) goal in developing high efficiency, man portable fully automatic weapons. There was no intent to enable conservationists to mow down whole herds of deer; it was always about laying waste to the massive concentrations of men lined up across the field under the enemy's banners.

Full auto air guns, when loaded with pellets or paired with proven slugs, are the antithesis of what brought me to airgunning. I came to airgunning because I wanted a safer version of shooting. I wanted to experience all of the satisfaction of mastering target shooting and sharing the fun of plinking with my kids and grandkids without requiring ear protection and hundreds of yards of open land with massive backstops. I wanted a hobby that allowed me to move my shooting indoors when it grew cold, and that had guys and gals at the local range turning their heads and smiling when they tried out my "little ol' BB gun" at 50 yards without any ear muffs on. I have found that my expectations in airgunning are shared by many others in the community. I am dismayed to see this escalation of the "Full Auto Airgun Race" and can't help but paraphrase Jurassic Park's Dr. Malcolm: you were so excited to discover you could do it that you never stopped to ask if you should."
 
Who here remembers the "fps wars" some decades back? In fact, it's only in the last 5 years or so that the core airgun enthusiast community really revisited the whole speed=success formula that drove manufacturers (for the US market) to keep upping the claimed velocity of their magnum guns. 1200 fps, 1400 fps, now even 1600 fps while still using diabolo pellets led only to instability in the flight path and larger POI groups. Now we read and hear "shot placement is the key" while reducing our pellet velocities to something more in line with the UK and mainland EU.

Point being, the market is nothing more than the people who comprise it, and people will always chase after the "next big thing". As it happens, improved barrel manufacture, air consumption efficiency, shot count, increased BC ammo in the form slugs, larger bores to legitimize taking larger game, and air sourcing have all been addressed across the airgun buying spectrum over the last decade. What became the next unicorn for the avid airgunner? Speed of repeatable, accurate shots. Side levers replace bolt actions... PCPs replace break barrels... semi-auto comes out of the shadows and storms into the major shows and events. Now we have Full Auto coming out of the brilliant minds of manufacturers around the world, with a side order of high-performance slugs added on.

Larger bores for hunting? Yeah, makes perfectly good sense from a wildlife conservation standpoint. Semi-auto without decreased accuracy? Yeah, for reliable follow-up shots in hunting and pesting situations. Plus they're just plain fun. Slugs instead of pellets? Same hunting/pesting reasoning applies. I'm all in for these innovations.

Full auto in anything more than a BB gun cannot be rationalized for me. Unlike Alfred Nobel whose development of dynamite was envisioned to be a boon to man in road building and other large projects, John Browning and his contemporaries had nothing but the neutralization of an enemy on the battlefield as their primary (almost singular) goal in developing high efficiency, man portable fully automatic weapons. There was no intent to enable conservationists to mow down whole herds of deer; it was always about laying waste to the massive concentrations of men lined up across the field under the enemy's banners.

Full auto air guns, when loaded with pellets or paired with proven slugs, are the antithesis of what brought me to airgunning. I came to airgunning because I wanted a safer version of shooting. I wanted to experience all of the satisfaction of mastering target shooting and sharing the fun of plinking with my kids and grandkids without requiring ear protection and hundreds of yards of open land with massive backstops. I wanted a hobby that allowed me to move my shooting indoors when it grew cold, and that had guys and gals at the local range turning their heads and smiling when they tried out my "little ol' BB gun" at 50 yards without any ear muffs on. I have found that my expectations in airgunning are shared by many others in the community. I am dismayed to see this escalation of the "Full Auto Airgun Race" and can't help but paraphrase Jurassic Park's Dr. Malcolm: you were so excited to discover you could do it that you never stopped to ask if you should."


I agree with you to the T.

I'm all for a good deer hunting air rifle capable of a quick follow up shot ie semi-auto. But full auto? And in .30 caliber. Don't see the need for that in the hunting woods. My thoughts are if you need "that" many shots after the first one, you should seriously think about taking up another hobby. Might I suggest crocheting 😁

What it always boils down it is $$$$. Assuredly manufacturers are all wanting a piece of the PB shooters pie. Look at SIG. Already has a wonderful PB following so why not temp some airgunners with some nifty toys?

Maybe just maybe we will dodge this one like we have the "quiet parts" thingy.

Ray
 
Part of me thinks about a full auto that will dump a 16 round magazine .30 projectiles in 1 second as not any more lethal/dangerous than 1 load of buckshot from a shotgun. I don't see big capacity magazines coming the way these airguns are designed, and the air tank limits firepower anyway unless you are tethered to a full sized tank on your back.
 
Part of me thinks about a full auto that will dump a 16 round magazine .30 projectiles in 1 second as not any more lethal/dangerous than 1 load of buckshot from a shotgun. I don't see big capacity magazines coming the way these airguns are designed, and the air tank limits firepower anyway unless you are tethered to a full sized tank on your back.


Correct. But it only takes one nutjob with the wrong intentions toward a group of people using a full auto airgun to bring pain and suffering to bring the wrath of the almighty government on top of the airgun industry. And you know the "lame news media" will only fan the flames given the chance. And then anyone who even owns an airgun will be labeled a blood thirsty killer. Just look what happens when it happens with a PB? Its a full on attack on the 2A .

That's the problem. We in the airgun world know the difference between a Daisy 880 and a Hatsan Blitz Full Auto. Well meaning politicians and quick to print the story first reporters in the news, not so much.

Ray
 
I got an $900 drone that I can't even find a place to fly it legally within 50 miles of the house. Give the Feds an inch and they will take a mile/

John


Guess you boys ain't heard about the FAA getting up a new proposal that if it passes and becomes a law ALL drones and or RC aircraft, ie Planes, Heli's, etc that weigh over 5.5 ounces will have to have a TRACKING ID beacon that lets the FAA know where your drone is every time you want to fly it. And with that being said, there will be restriction zones worse than the ones around local airports.

Some believe it is deep pockets aka "amazon" who is behind all this so they can have the skies to themselves when they start drone package delivery.

I say it's just more over reach from an already over reaching government.

Ray



Colorado is the reason for tracking discussion, we also had a congress person say during the hi cap magazine spectacle “well once those mags are used they cant be used anymore” She thought they were one use DOH!


 
Part of me thinks about a full auto that will dump a 16 round magazine .30 projectiles in 1 second as not any more lethal/dangerous than 1 load of buckshot from a shotgun. I don't see big capacity magazines coming the way these airguns are designed, and the air tank limits firepower anyway unless you are tethered to a full sized tank on your back.


Correct. But it only takes one nutjob with the wrong intentions toward a group of people using a full auto airgun to bring pain and suffering to bring the wrath of the almighty government on top of the airgun industry. And you know the "lame news media" will only fan the flames given the chance. And then anyone who even owns an airgun will be labeled a blood thirsty killer. Just look what happens when it happens with a PB? Its a full on attack on the 2A .

That's the problem. We in the airgun world know the difference between a Daisy 880 and a Hatsan Blitz Full Auto. Well meaning politicians and quick to print the story first reporters in the news, not so much.

Ray

All relative. Wait until the first 'nut job" kills someone with a semi-auto airgun. Or any high energy airgun. It'll be the same end result. More legislation.
 
I could go on and on and on..........but I don't really feel like it. 

I will just say this. It will be this type of thing that eventually brings crushing regulation to the air gun industry. All of the advances that have been made in the PCP sector will end up being for nought once the right (wrong) attention is brought to this type of air gun technology. Guaranteed!

But....it will be worse than you think. Air guns are not firearms. They will be banned, restricted, regulated, etc far more easily than firearms. Won't enjoy the same type of protections and/or resistance to regulations as firearms under our second amendment. If you don't believe that....you are kidding yourself and living in a quasi reality. This type of product should be shunned by the AG community if you enjoy air gunning in the manner that most of us do. Just my 5 cents worth...........I said I wasn't gonna go on and on and on.....and I didn't!!!! I have a lot more I could say about the subject. But I don't feel like it tonight. I think most of us are in agreement and understand.

TR
 
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I could go on and on and on..........but I don't really feel like it. 

I will just say this. It will be this type of thing that eventually brings crushing regulation to the air gun industry. All of the advances that have been made in the PCP sector will end up being for nought once the right (wrong) attention is brought to this type of air gun technology. Guaranteed!

But....it will be worse than you think. Air guns are not firearms. They will be banned, restricted, regulated, etc far more easily than firearms. Won't enjoy the same type of protections and/or resistance to regulations as firearms under our second amendment. If you don't believe that....you are kidding yourself and living in a quasi reality. This type of product should be shunned by the AG community if you enjoy air gunning in the manner that most of us do. Just my 5 cents worth...........I said I wasn't gonna go on and on and on.....and I didn't!!!! I have a lot more I could say about the subject. But I don't feel like it tonight. I think most of us are in agreement and understand.

TR


I think this is one of the most important things I've seen stated on this topic. I hope people hear it. When the first stupid event happens that bring serious regulation down on our sport, and with these types of products being released, it will, we will find ourselves BEGGING to be classified and regulated as traditional firearms. Think about a local municipality being able to regulate airguns without concern over any rights to own and operate them.
 
As ironlion269, said these things are the antithesis to why many came to airguns in the first place. And tiredrooster makes a great point about airguns not necessarily having the same protection for ownership under the Second Amendment. Though I believe “keep and bear arms” means any projectile weapons. So we have a legal right to bear arms whether they be airguns or firearms. The airgun community needs to police itself in terms of not promoting these novelty, niche airguns that serve no useful purpose. These guns seem like they would be fun for an hour then reality sets in, what you going to do with it? Do drive bys on squirrels and chipmunks? Pull up to that sweet permission and cut loose at the silos? One of the main qualities of airguns to me is their low profile. Quiet, unobtrusive, inoffensive.
 
It is obvious that it is up to ourselves to police ourselves. The best way, as previously mentioned is to NOT buy a full auto airgun and we can even go one step further by not buying anything from a company that is pushing these things (how far will that one get?)

A letter campaign to the manufactures from a few thousand of us may make a difference too.

Utopian ideas for sure, but they would work I bet.

By the by, with the stroke of a legislative pen, airguns and even BB guns, I think, are considered firearms in New Jersey and have been for many years. They were when I got out of there 20 years ago. How many other states have restrictions or may even go the firearm route if the industry keeps up the silly stuff like full auto?
 
All the points mentioned so far in this thread have been spot on. Even blackdiesel's. and yes I would hope that we all are just worrying about something that may never happen. And truthfully I hope it never does. The thing that I find most interesting is how all this has gone from one end of the spectrum to the other.

The main reason we got into shooting airguns has already been mentioned. I want to be able to go in my back yard and punch some paper and shoot tin cans with my kids and grandkids whenever I want without worrying about bothering the neighbors around me. And with an airgun I am allowed to do just that. I also love to squirrel and rabbit hunt with airguns because I like the challenge of getting close to make the shot. It makes me a better more ethical hunter. And I believe it makes me a better shooter when I get out my PB's.

I'm afraid the manufacturers have been just like they have always been. For them it's all about making money plain and simple. I think at one time Tom Gaylord wrote a very interesting article on just what it took for an airgun to go from a thought to actual production. And most of that was deemed mostly on "could they make it marketable". Or in other words, would it make or lose them money in the long run. According to Tom, if they couldn't make a good profit the idea was scrapped.

With that being said I think a lot of these new style airguns which are being built to mimic or copy popular PB's are great, but to a point. Take for instance those new Glock and Springfield co2 replica pistols. Or the copies of the older winchester lever actions and colt revolvers. I think they all have their place. And they are mostly all still in the realm of "BB gun". But some of the newer stuff especially "full auto" .30 cal is really over the top and is in my honest opinion as far from a pellet or BB gun as you can get. I also can not wait for the first review on this particular Blitz. I bet it will be a doozie.

Ray
 
Here's a video showing it in action. This guy is not even an airgunner.



https://youtu.be/p0E2KItDLE8



Black Diesel you are so correct when you say he is "NOT" an airgunner. Bet that is the probably the first airgun that guy has ever shot let alone held in his hand. Did you see how he tried to load the mag by rolling the pellets all around it hoping they would drop in the slots!! Oh yea, like that's gonna make accuracy SO much better!

And another thing to I thought wasn't really helping keep the "full auto" very low key was starting the video by reminding his viewing audience that the government took away your rights to own a full auto PB, (without the proper paperwork and $$$) so here's your chance to thumb your nose at the establishment and get you some!!!!

Shame about all this is it looked like with a proper scope it might be accurate. And looks like high mount rings are gonna be in order for sure.

Looks to be a real ammo burner for the most part, If you own one, better have deep pockets. Man, in .30 caliber that could be quite expensive down the road.

And finally, I find it really hard to watch and or listen to any man testing an airgun or even real guns while wearing pink ear muffs 😳😲😜

Ray