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Sub 12 ft-lbs

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An assortment is indeed useful, and a 12 fpe limit would cramp my style. Glad we can shoot the full range. 

Currently shooting a tin per week on the 10m line with ~6 fpe, 1-2 critters around 19 fpe, and 100 shots / week setting up an HFT rig (around 15 fpe). Hoping to score a 12 fpe FT gun but not at the top of my list. Will go 80 fpe when the slug technology tightens up.
 
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This is one reason why I enjoy my RedWolf. The ability to change the power at will makes things really easy. When out shooting in the yard, or neighborhood I can drop the power down to around the 10-12ftlb. But going out and shooting longer ranges I can bump things up and take advantage of the longer ranges. Have also liked the idea of being able to adjust the speed on the fly while out hunting. If out hunting for small game the lower power is more than enough, but if something larger shows up... or a longer range.... just switch out the pellets and up the power.

To each their own really, and each power level has its pros and cons. 
 
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I Bought a HW97K , MY first springer, shot 5 pellets and sent it off to Tony to tune it to sub 12 foot # . Wonderful gun ! Before that i have a Daystate Pulsar which on low power is 18 FPE . I personally think that all this High power air guns are going to get stupid laws very shortly in the USA . Think of all the Gang shootings IF the gangs realize they can just go buy a 9mm or .44 M 

just my thoughts
 
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qball,

It turns out that we agree, it’s just that we have a choice to tune our airguns for our purpose and others don’t. After safety comes accuracy and we are fortunate not to be restricted.
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definitely agree that the freedom of shooting high power airguns safely and have my toys shipped to my door is awesome. This is why I get annoyed when people get into airguns and obsessed over power power power. As more people get into the sport there is little doubt someone reckless will F* it up for everyone, it’s matter of when not if. Just like all the idiots watch YouTube and want to shoot firearms fast, it’s only matter of time innocent people get killed their dumb ass get the slammer but what good does that do for the deceased? Current recklessness of “gun culture” disgusts me. While we can argue about our “rights” blue in our face but everyone also have the right to live without fear of stray bullets……..or pellets. 


while sub12 seems ridiculous to us Americans it is a very sensible law, it does NOT mean you can not have high power guns. It just means you need background checks and such. I have zero issues with requirements of background check, training and regular proficiency tests. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. So the only sensible thing to do is weed out certain people, sure it’s somewhat inconvenient for rest of us but it’s the price to pay as population grows and the liberals won’t put down rabid animals. 



hope the post isn’t too political, it is airgun law related…😅




 
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Ok. A few you who chimed in got my point in this post but most seem to be turning this post in a political rant.

If you read my first post, you see a question: does a 12 ft-lb pcp have the same characteristics (smoothness of shot cycle, sound, trigger pull, etc) as a full powered pcp.

IMO I think a 12 ft-lb pcp is way different then a full powered pcp and the reason I don't really watch reviews on 12 ft-lb pcp's. But I could be wrong for thinking this way. Everything might be the same and the only difference is the speed of the pellet. IDK. If I have time, maybe I'll tune down my one of my pcp's to 12 ft-lbs and compare. I use to own an 18 ft-lb prod in .22 and it was a challenge hunting with that gun over 40 and 50 yards. Shots with a 30 ft-lb pcp was no big deal but 18 ft-lbs was a challenge.
 
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Hi wyshadow,

The questions you have concerning the shot cycle are why I started shooting some of my airguns in the 6-9 fpe range. My first bullpups were based on the Edgun R5M platform which can have quite a snap when the hammer hits the valve. First I just backed off the hammer spring. It did help with the sound of the hammer strike. Then I got into an R5M Long .177 from a board member here. I put a Huma 12 fpe kit in it and have never looked back. The lower regulator pressure with the lighter hammer spring makes the gun quieter at the muzzle and at the shooter's ear (which is over the hammer). At 30 yards I spend my time putting a hole in a target and try to put more pellets through that hole. It's not hard to do! The cocking feel changed significantly with the lower hammer spring. The R5M has rather low mechanical advantage when cocking the hammer. The lower hammer spring force makes the gun cocking very smooth. The other side-effect of the lower power is the shot count on the R5M Long .177 exceeds 300 pellets/fill.

It may not be a solution for hunting but it makes for an enjoyable afternoon of shooting.

Enjoy,

Nugria
 
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I often watch reviews and other videos of sub 12 guns. I love the high shot counts and the abilities of the some of British and European counterparts are fantastic! Besides, even if a particular airgun is limited to 12 ft. lbs over seas, the build quality should be the same. 

In fact one of my favorite videos is shooting a sub 12 .25 by Airgun Gear Show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wf_BPajUqE
 
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Ok. A few you who chimed in got my point in this post but most seem to be turning this post in a political rant.

If you read my first post, you see a question: does a 12 ft-lb pcp have the same characteristics (smoothness of shot cycle, sound, trigger pull, etc) as a full powered pcp.

IMO I think a 12 ft-lb pcp is way different then a full powered pcp and the reason I don't really watch reviews on 12 ft-lb pcp's. But I could be wrong for thinking this way. Everything might be the same and the only difference is the speed of the pellet. IDK. If I have time, maybe I'll tune down my one of my pcp's to 12 ft-lbs and compare. I use to own an 18 ft-lb prod in .22 and it was a challenge hunting with that gun over 40 and 50 yards. Shots with a 30 ft-lb pcp was no big deal but 18 ft-lbs was a challenge.
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apologize for the side track and back to the original topic. I absolutely love 12 FPE and usually go even further at 3-8fpe. 


you are 100% correct that high power airgun is very different compared to low powered airguns in just about every way. Low powered guns are So much smoother and uses way less air so you will shoot a ton more. Then there is the good old saying of if you don’t have a long ways to shoot then reduce the target size and increase difficulty and that’s what exactly low powered airguns provide, far higher difficulty. My 7.4 grain pellet with BC of 0.012 flying @600FPS will have wind drift of almost 2 inches in 5mph wind compared to 1/4 inch from my .25 slugs at the 34 yards. This forces me to read the wind very carefully if I have any hope of getting close to the bullseye when the wind picks up even a little. BUT when I read the wind correctly and thread the pellet through the bullseye the satisfaction is immense. 


Specific to your situation of hunting out to 50 yards I would not go much lower than 700FPS just so there is higher probability of humane kill if you have to deal with wind at all regardless of caliber. I would recommend a 177 gun at say 600FPS or even lower for target work. My dreamtac compact has tiny 170cc tube but at 7fpe I get 5 mags if not more from a 230bar fill. My crown with 300cc bottle gets 10 mags at the same 7fpe with 250 bar fill, down side is I lose track of how many mags and shoot pas reg pressure all the time because it’s just easy to do. That’s over 200 shots per fill for my crown and 100 shots per fill on my DTC. Down side to that is I use a LOT of pellets.😅


Then there is zero recoil so you can focus on trigger technics, down side is you don’t get to work on recoil management skills. In summary sub12 is extremely enjoyable and extremely challenging when condition isn’t ideal. If you can shot well with 6 FPE then you can shoot really well with 60 FPE.





















 
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Ok. A few you who chimed in got my point in this post but most seem to be turning this post in a political rant.

If you read my first post, you see a question: does a 12 ft-lb pcp have the same characteristics (smoothness of shot cycle, sound, trigger pull, etc) as a full powered pcp.

IMO I think a 12 ft-lb pcp is way different then a full powered pcp and the reason I don't really watch reviews on 12 ft-lb pcp's. But I could be wrong for thinking this way. Everything might be the same and the only difference is the speed of the pellet. IDK. If I have time, maybe I'll tune down my one of my pcp's to 12 ft-lbs and compare. I use to own an 18 ft-lb prod in .22 and it was a challenge hunting with that gun over 40 and 50 yards. Shots with a 30 ft-lb pcp was no big deal but 18 ft-lbs was a challenge.
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Keep in mind that pellet rotation rpm is proportional to muzzle FPS. Faster muzzle fps equals faster rpm. However, the actual rotations per foot traveled (after leaving the barrel) may not be so different.

This is a question I have been asking myself (and I don't know how to answer it) because of the differences in accuracy/precision for any given pellet when the fps OR barrel twist is changed. 

Sorry... just thinking out loud. (smile)

p.s.

Sorry... I didn't really present a question did I? (chuckle) And I can't seem to put words together well enough tonight to explain what I meant. (sigh)

Suffice to say that I thought that lowering the fps/fpe of any given pellet in a given barrel would, by default, eventually get to a level that was always more accurate/precise.

So far, in my limited experience, it doesn't work that way. There are always sweet spots for accuracy/precision, but I simply don't understand what makes those "sweet spots".

Sure wish there was a calculator for that! (smile)


 
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IMO everything is a bit more challenging when you are ltd to 12lbft everything has to be pretty spot on for them to shoot well at distance but it's great fun and very rewarding when it all goes to plan, i shoot at 50yrd most of the time and i try to get my guns shooting sub 1/2 in groups

I do shoot high power also and the same guns in HP feel totally different in sub 12, the trigger is better in sub12 the cocking is smoother / lighter the firing cycle is much nicer and the shot count is just ridicules my sub 12 M3 will do 600+ shots on one fill

I enjoy both and they both have there place, the guns are not that different but the feel shooting them sure is so it can be worth watching sub 12 vids to get free info, most of the time there are only a few small differences in the guns 👍 i am not just saying that because i run the sub 12 airgunners channel 🤣🤣
 
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Back in the late 70s/early 80s, I discovered Beeman. He was a VERY good marketer and made a little more power sound like the ultimate. Think of FWB 124 vs R1. What is that... 12 vs 15 ft lb? I bought a good number based on that and was typically disappointed because they never matched the claims. They shot quite well though, but the power thing drove me on.🙄 During that era, I hunted quite a bit with my FWB124 and it was quite good. At one point I shot a rabbit between the eyes that was facing me at about 30 yds with RWS Meisterkugelns (flat head). Upon skinning it, found the pellet had gone through it end to end and stuck between flesh and skin in the back of it's leg. Keep in mind that this was just under 12 ft lb. Did I need more than that... absolutely not. Many squirrels and rabbits fell to that rifle and I don't remember having to hit one twice.

Anyway... it's mostly marketing that drives us... I'm quite happy shooting anything good now... power has little meaning to me as long as it's enough for the purpose.

To that point, a friend approached me about seeing what could be done with his Steyr LG100 to make a good 12 ft lb shooter. I had happened to have a 20 year old LG100 barrel that seemed perfect except for a tight breech. I lapped it carefully and it tested as good as anything I've ever shot... 1 small hole at 50, over and over. Keep in mind, sub 12 ft lb but also nice conditions. Just for grins, I shot a group at 100...
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The first 3 went in there on top of each other, then I could feel a very slight change in the drift, so held a little and saw it go a little left. The fifth had a little more change so I held a little more but still went out to the far left. Just one group and no question there was luck involved but man... what a good little shooter that was.

I'm happy with 12 ft lb for sure... 😀
Bob
 
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