Strange experience RAW HM1000X VS FX IMPACT

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mubhaur

mubhaur

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Nov 8, 2015
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Today I happen to shoot my Impact mk2 .25 34 grain jsb pellets with LW unchoked polygonal barrel at 100 yards.

It was shooting at 940fps but group size was 2.5" CTC.

Then I picked my RAW HM1000X .25 with BSA barrel and shot the same 34 grain pellets at same 100 yards distance in same conditions of 18km winds. To my surprise all 8 shots landed in 3/4" CTC without much effort. 

Then I again focused on my Impact and tried to retune it. Finally I could achieve 1.5" groups with same ammo in same conditions. 

I understand that if I give more time to tune Impact, the group size may shrink further.

But at the same time I am surprised that how easy it is for me to shoot RAW HM1000X with extreme accuracy without detailed tuning.

Bhaur


 
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I have similar equipment and FOR ME it’s much easier to shoot good groups with a rifle over a bull pup. BUT the slightest change in conditions can make a significant difference at 100. 
I can get some fabulous groups at 100 but repeating them the next day is elusive. I think sometimes I expect too much.
if I’m hunting at long range I find I must sight in every time. I’m always off at 100 enough to miss a starling sized target. Wind or light or rifle hold? Have to remember we’re pushing the boundaries at these long yards At least that’s what I’ve found so far. 
 
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I also have the same air guns and agree with what was said. If it isn’t a dead calm day, it’s almost impossible to test different air guns and projectiles accurately. I also agree with John, in that many people expect way too much from their air guns, expecting them to be sub moa at any range. Because of all of the videos on line and everyone always talking about sub moa this and that at 100yds, 150yds, 200yds, people that are new just expect it to be easy. It’s NOT. It obviously can be done but takes lots of practice and an intimate understanding of your air gun, optic and projectile. 

The Impact can definitely be hold sensitive, much more than traditional stock designs like the RAW. Just look at the gun designs and barrel diameters. I experimented with the carbon fiber liner trick last June and shared my results here on AGN. Because accuracy was already stellar, I didn’t see any improvement at all and stopped experimenting. Big mistake! I should have been paying more attention to decreased hold sensitivity, not improved accuracy. Of course, one can lead to the other but my accuracy was already superb.

As more and more people started experimenting with liners and Ernest started selling them, I kept hearing about improved consistency, which also helped many with accuracy. I started experimenting again over the last couple months and finally ended up installing a 3mm aluminum barrel liner with a 1.5mm carbon fiber shroud liner and the hold sensitivity was almost completely alleviated. It really is consistent, accurate and not hold sensitive at all. I wish I would have experimented more last June before giving up. If you haven’t installed these liners, give it a try. If you have, then you know what I’m talking about. 

Have a great Easter.

Stoti
 
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Two very different barrels so without more details it’s really hard to say. Is the bsa barrel choked, I assume it is? What are the twist rates? Out of curiosity why did you put a LW barrel on the impact? Unchoked barrels aren’t usually good with pellets so you are basically comparing hammer and screwdriver’s ability on nails and on a windy day at that. Both are custom barrels so the gun has absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy you are getting. 
 
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Theoben/RAW + BSA hammer forged barrel = best combo out there. Not just opinion, there are decades of experimentation proving that this tried and true equation is paramount.Mind you, we are talking pellets here, not bullet nose fishing weights (aka slugs in the AG community).

Enjoy your accurate Frankengun!

top

p.s. another winning combo is the FX Royale series with a BSA barrel. No surprise here, Ben Taylor designed both Rapids and Royales.
 
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There are some guns that can do sub MOA consistently even half MOA that all depends on the barrel if you are lucky enough to get a phenomenal lucky Barrel one in the entire run of the same guns.

It also helps A LOT if you make your own PERFECT slugs and pellets.

The stuff you see on YouTube with all those folks for those 200+ yard shots are likely making their own home made ammo to shoot. Probably from Corbin and H and Hem.

It's highly unlikely they are using commercially bought pellets and slugs.

Anyone who wants sub or Half MOA needs to make their own ammo then go through a lot of barrels to test.

You can go through 1000 guns (or barrels) and have only 25 to 30 that do 1/2 inch or better at 100 yards and sub 1/4 inch at 50 consistently. That's 2 to 3 per every 100 guns produced. Then you have the manufacturers cherry picking the best most accurate barrels to install in guns to sponsor the YouTubers to make videos.

I really like buying YouTube reviewers' actual guns especially when they tell me the barrels were hand picked.


 
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Speaking of hand picked barrels, someone should import Russian made guns they have to ship them barrels separately to get around that Russian import ban and man O man the possibilities of getting hand picked barrels-!

Example-

I have an Edgun R3M half inch at 100 yards shooting old Gray label good lot JSBs and select lots of the Red label. You wouldn't believe how many Edguns I had to go through for this one. Purchased from a private seller who got out of the game years ago told me how many Edguns he had to go through to get this keeper. It was his last one he never ever thought he would end up selling.

TerryBoo it wasn't the one I bought from you. Yours does one inch at 100 and some times a hair under an inch only shooting good lot batches of JSBs because average lot JSBs do 1.5 inches or larger. Have to buy all different lots all the time to know which lots give sub MOA then buy them all out and leave the typical $hitty JSB lots for the other shooters who don't need the best accuracy anyway.

You can only WASTE A LOT of TIME weighing sorting measuring sizing rolling JUNK LOT batches of pellets that won't even give you the best accuracy no matter what you do to them. These are plinking close distance pellets or to season your freshly cleaned barrel or for wasting to shoot over the chrony or just run them full auto in your LCS SK19. 

You have to shoot them (sample test every single different lot number) first before even deciding to waste your time going through the sorting process. When you get them rather rare lately phenomenal lot batches you don't even have to sort then they shoot ALMOST perfect straight outa their tins. The Terry Robb sizer enhances these to ALMOST like home made pellet level too.

Probably won't matter to most.
 
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John Bowkett was the Chief Designer at BSA for many years. He has dozens of personal patents in the field, designed many British iconic air rifles and his work will be well known to collectors. He may still be active today. Before he joined BSA he made a number of one-off airguns both pistols and rifles. He is a legend and great contributor to the Airgun industry. 

Umair, this is what makes the results not so surprising. This you are already fully aware of😉 . You sourced that legendary barrel from John Bowkett. It’s an older supreme BSA barrel. You then developed your indexing system for the barrel with a custom thimble. You’re a very good & detailed airgunsmith in your own right but a Professional Accountant. Good job brother. I would love to shoot your massaged RAWs. 
 
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John Bowkett was the Chief Designer at BSA for many years. He has dozens of personal patents in the field, designed many British iconic air rifles and his work will be well known to collectors. He may still be active today. Before he joined BSA he made a number of one-off airguns both pistols and rifles. He is a legend and great contributor to the Airgun industry. 

Umair, this is what makes the results not so surprising. This you are already fully aware of
1f609.svg
 . You sourced that legendary barrel from John Bowkett. It’s an older supreme BSA barrel. You then developed your indexing system for the barrel with a custom thimble. You’re a very good & detailed airgunsmith in your own right but a Professional Accountant. Good job brother. I would love to shoot your massaged RAWs.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much sir for keeping my personal details in mind and my work on my RAWs in your memory. 

Your comments are always a great tribute for me.

Whatever you have said about the barrel and further detailed work on RAW is perfectly right. 

Thank you sir 🙏. 

Umair Bhaur 
 
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I would like to see someone install solid barrels, like LW or BSA on FX rifles and see what the difference is. I would be willing to bet a tin of pellets that the solid barrels would outshoot those skinny FX tubes. To me, the solid barrels are much stiffer and the mass makes them less prone to resonance.
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from rigidity perspective what you stated is 100% correct but being airgun we don’t really need that much more than the FX metal straw. With carbon lining it can be just as stiff and less harmonic issues. With the right tune FX metal straw can hang with best of solid barrels. The YouTube FX gangs aren’t just marketing machines with special secrete barrels. Anyone can achieve that level of accuracy in those videos with a little work and skill......using those metal straws. 


after my 5th FX gun and 8th metal straw/barrel I can attest to how good these metal straws really are especially with the latest superior variants. I also have a solid TJ barrel machined for my impact and no it’s not more accurate, it does take less tuning at higher power however. These is far more to a barrel than just how heavy and stiff it is. 
 
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Theoben/RAW + BSA hammer forged barrel = best combo out there. Not just opinion, there are decades of experimentation proving that this tried and true equation is paramount.Mind you, we are talking pellets here, not bullet nose fishing weights (aka slugs in the AG community).

Enjoy your accurate Frankengun!

top

p.s. another winning combo is the FX Royale series with a BSA barrel. No surprise here, Ben Taylor designed both Rapids and Royales.
Click to expand...

You are right. I have also installed a BSA .22 barrel on my fx royale 400.

It was outstanding in long range accuracy and a lot of pellets worked extremely good in this combination. 

Umair Bhaur 
 
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There are some guns that can do sub MOA consistently even half MOA that all depends on the barrel if you are lucky enough to get a phenomenal lucky Barrel one in the entire run of the same guns.

It also helps A LOT if you make your own PERFECT slugs and pellets.

The stuff you see on YouTube with all those folks for those 200+ yard shots are likely making their own home made ammo to shoot. Probably from Corbin and H and Hem.

It's highly unlikely they are using commercially bought pellets and slugs.

Anyone who wants sub or Half MOA needs to make their own ammo then go through a lot of barrels to test.

You can go through 1000 guns (or barrels) and have only 25 to 30 that do 1/2 inch or better at 100 yards and sub 1/4 inch at 50 consistently. That's 2 to 3 per every 100 guns produced. Then you have the manufacturers cherry picking the best most accurate barrels to install in guns to sponsor the YouTubers to make videos.

I really like buying YouTube reviewers' actual guns especially when they tell me the barrels were hand picked.

Click to expand...

Whats even more hilarious is when the barrel in fact doesn't have a liner and turns out to be made by TJ 😆
 
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Two very different rifles. I've owned only one liner/sleeve rifle, and I don't plan to own another. The RAW is a tank, but has probably lost some market share (along with others), to the FX adjustamatics. With most RAW rifles, once the tune is right for your needs, they will shoot very well, and keep on shooting well for a long time with minimal maintenance needs. That appeals to me.
 
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Two very different rifles. I've owned only one liner/sleeve rifle, and I don't plan to own another. The RAW is a tank, but has probably lost some market share (along with others), to the FX adjustamatics. With most RAW rifles, once the tune is right for your needs, they will shoot very well, and keep on shooting well for a long time with minimal maintenance needs. That appeals to me.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. I don’t spend any time tinkering with my RAW’s. I tested pellets to find the best ones for my guns and that was it. They just shoot accurately and keep on doing so. 
 
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