Steyr Steyr LG110 HFT

[cavedweller]

I had to redo a couple HFT rigs this week. i was missing shots for no apparent reason except perhaps i was ranging wrong at further distances and or my dope was off.
Although this may seem field target related, it applies to all of us air gunners who use ballistic program apps.
Thanks to a wise ol dog, this ol dog learned some new tricks.
Prior to this week I would zero at the top of my apex and then use StrelokPro for my dope. Missed lots of shots but figured it was me. Turns out if you zero at say, 30 yards then go back to 10 yards and do an actual shot and measure actual POI for holdover, StrelokPro will be off a niggle.
Well, turns out if you tweak your center of scope to center of barrel measurement in StrelokPro so it matches the actual shot at 10 yards - Shazam.
In my Steyr’s case every StrelokPro holdover point was still perfect from 10 yards to zero, BUT after my zero point StrelokPro started to get wonky as in showing greater hold overs then necessary.
I had to shoot yard by yard shots from 44 yards (end of my trajectory apex) to 60 yards to create actual true dope after my zero point.
My Steyr is now shooting a basically flat trajectory from about 24 yards to 44 yards.
Longest flattest apex of any of my airguns.

Now what to do about standing and kneeling shots

 

[drsquall]

That's what I do. For my piston guns I zero at 25. Then I shoot at 10 yards to see where I hit and compare that to my chairgun And if it is off I adjust my scope height accordingly to get it spot on. Then I will shoot at 55 and see where it compares to chair gun and tweak my BC till it matches up taking care to pay attention that the 10 yard point of impact does not change as I do this. I used to tweak my speed for the distance shots but the speed is verified with my chrono so I just leave it be. The biggest thing that helps me is finding my BC that I'm shooting for that particular pellet for that particular gun.

Jon

 

[Arzrover]

The scope height is most important at yardages below your apex and the bc or velocity at yardages above your apex. All three can be tweaked to get the curve to match. If the velocity is known, the bc is what you will tweak for yardages above your apex. I mostly shoot LW poly's and available bc estimates are usually low, resulting in shots that land higher than predicted at longer ranges.
I typically measure the velocity loss and calculate my own bc's with my LabRadar for this reason, but simply tweaking the program till it matches works fine also.
Bob

 

[Motorhead]

Why in the FT game when using holdovers .... ZERO is at Flight apex & NEVER some rudimentary I zero at 25 or 30 number.
If using a ballistics program set your range of zero narrow as it will go ( Chairgun allows .01") and let the program tell you optimal zero range.

Also by having the Z range so small, the corrections at all ranges will be much more defined.

 

[cavedweller]

The scope height is most important at yardages below your apex and the bc or velocity at yardages above your apex. All three can be tweaked to get the curve to match. If the velocity is known, the bc is what you will tweak for yardages above your apex. I mostly shoot LW poly's and available bc estimates are usually low, resulting in shots that land higher than predicted at longer ranges.
I typically measure the velocity loss and calculate my own bc's with my LabRadar for this reason, but simply tweaking the program till it matches works fine also.
Bob

strelokpro has a feature where you select the pellet you are using and it fills in the B.C. ?

 

[cavedweller]

Why in the FT game when using holdovers .... ZERO is at Flight apex & NEVER some rudimentary I zero at 25 or 30 number.
If using a ballistics program set your range of zero narrow as it will go ( Chairgun allows .01") and let the program tell you optimal zero range.

Also by having the Z range so small, the corrections at all ranges will be much more defined.

ok that's a fascinating tid bit... i have to study my strelok pro to see if in has a similar feature to chairgun.
So if i understand what your saying... @Motorhead - if i determine i hit the top of my apex at say... 23 yards... rather than 30 i should go back and re-enter zero at the actual beginning of apex, say 23 yards?

And then also verify the 10 yard actual strike mark and adjust center of barrel to center of scope until strelock pro matches strike point at 10 yards.

Then after that @Arzrover - if i understand what Bob is saying, i will need to somehow adjust my B.C. for distances specifically for where my pellet begins it's descent?

 

[Motorhead]

Not sure on how the entries work in Stelok as i don't use it.

Now 23y for zero won't happen unless AG is very lower power and scope is really low .... Likely to see more 26-30y for most HFT set ups.

Once you have a determined APEX distance, and one having the narrowest +/- of what is a true & exact distance ... yes you need to zero your rifle at that exact distance.

 

[Solo1]

The easiest way for me to explain how i set up strelock pro is to show a pic. First i setup up strelock wit scope height and velocity etc then pick a random 0 distance as far as i think will work. In this pic its 40 yds so i stay .2 above or below my 0 which gives me 21-43 yds. I adjust scope height to match 10 yds with what the gun tells me and bc to match 55

This allows the least amt of ranging at the hardest to range distance and most of my ranging at the easiest to range distance while using the center x hair for most distance with only hold unders

 

[Motorhead]

.200 above or below is a zero range of .400" ..... That if stating your numbers correct won't cut it !!!!
You need to be +/- .050" or a total or .100" or even less.

 

[Solo1]

.200 above or below is a zero range of .400" ..... That if stating your numbers correct won't cut it !!!!
You need to be +/- .050" or a total or .100" or even less.

What can i say works for me. Took me to 9th at the pa cup ft and I don’t do well standing or kneeling

 

[Solo1]

.200 above or below is a zero range of .400" ..... That if stating your numbers correct won't cut it !!!!
You need to be +/- .050" or a total or .100" or even less.

I don’t think .2 less than 1/4” really amounts to much weather hunting or shooting ft as your talking about putting 1 pellet just above another

 

[cavedweller]

I don’t think .2 less than 1/4” really amounts to much weather hunting or shooting ft as your talking about putting 1 pellet jutst above another

I’m really enjoying learning all this - thank you everyone!!

 

[RScott]

I rely on actual shots-to-targets from 10 to 55 yards to develop a holdover dope sheet. Whenever I adjust the scope height, BC, and zero in Strelock to calculate holdovers that match up with my real world holdovers, I invariably find I have to put in a high BC (using the GA drag-function model). For example, using FX 10.3 grain pellets, my holdovers (in inches) from 10-55 yards line up well when the BC is set at 0.06, whereas my chronograph-based BC measurement is closer to 0.025 to 0.03.

The other benefit of shooting actual shots for dope sheet prep is that I can check whether there is some POI drift to the left or right as distances change (in calm conditions). I realize that any such shift means my scope is not perfectly parallel with the bore (even after I've lined up the reticle with the muzzle), but it sometimes happens. For example, with my current FT setup "perfectly" zeroed (left/right and up/down) at 35 yards (where the shot apex is), I then need to hold the reticle 0.15 inches to the left of my target at 10 yards. This matters for the small KZs at short distances.

So using actual shots is the best way to build a dope sheet. Strelock can be useful to check how well my holdovers line up with the "smoothed line" of holdovers that Strelock calculates. (And be careful to know the distances to the yard at the extremes of the 10-55 yard range... the holdovers change dramatically yard-by-yard at those edges)

 

[cavedweller]

I rely on actual shots-to-targets from 10 to 55 yards to develop a holdover dope sheet. Whenever I adjust the scope height, BC, and zero in Strelock to calculate holdovers that match up with my real world holdovers, I invariably find I have to put in a high BC (using the GA drag-function model). For example, using FX 10.3 grain pellets, my holdovers (in inches) from 10-55 yards line up well when the BC is set at 0.06, whereas my chronograph-based BC measurement is closer to 0.025 to 0.03.

The other benefit of shooting actual shots for dope sheet prep is that I can check whether there is some POI drift to the left or right as distances change (in calm conditions). I realize that any such shift means my scope is not perfectly parallel with the bore (even after I've lined up the reticle with the muzzle), but it sometimes happens. For example, with my current FT setup "perfectly" zeroed (left/right and up/down) at 35 yards (where the shot apex is), I then need to hold the reticle 0.15 inches to the left of my target at 10 yards. This matters for the small KZs at short distances.

So using actual shots is the best way to build a dope sheet. Strelock can be useful to check how well my holdovers line up with the "smoothed line" of holdovers that Strelock calculates. (And be careful to know the distances to the yard at the extremes of the 10-55 yard range... the holdovers change dramatically yard-by-yard at those edges)

Makes good sense

 

[cavedweller]

.200 above or below is a zero range of .400" ..... That if stating your numbers correct won't cut it !!!!
You need to be +/- .050" or a total or .100" or even less.

Thought you might be amazed by the trajectory of a .177 jsb 10.34 gr coming out of a Alphawolf 27" barrel at 890- fps. See dope sheet which matches actual shots.
27 yards to 48 yards was basically flat...
never have i had another airgun with this long of an apex.
Scope is a Sightron SIII SFP IR 10-50x60 FT "current model".

 

[OkieMikeA]

The first time I used Strelok I had a dope sheet that had been created by shooting every yard from 10 to 55. I got an exact match with a 30 yard zero at 880 fps. I am very meticulous with my data input and have yet to have a failed dope sheet using Strelok. I print a hard spreadsheet duplicating their table and use that to keep from having to constantly pull out the phone.

 

[cavedweller]

The first time I used Strelok I had a dope sheet that had been created by shooting every yard from 10 to 55. I got an exact match with a 30 yard zero at 880 fps. I am very meticulous with my data input and have yet to have a failed dope sheet using Strelok. I print a hard spreadsheet duplicating their table and use that to keep from having to constantly pull out the phone.

That’s how I do it also but I shoot by the foot from 8.5 yards to around 20 yards
@OkieMikeA - curious how long your flat zone is?

 

[Motorhead]

Thought you might be amazed by the trajectory of a .177 jsb 10.34 gr coming out of a Alphawolf 27" barrel at 890- fps. See dope sheet which matches actual shots.
27 yards to 48 yards was basically flat...
never have i had another airgun with this long of an apex.
Scope is a Sightron SIII SFP IR 10-50x60 FT "current model".
View attachment 466357

Barrel length does not matter, only pellets weight and speed calibrated to a determined BC value.
I can absolutely state the trajectory IS NOT flat outside at most @ 8-10 yards.


*Larger a margin on zero range you allow, greater will this perceived flat trajectory become. And thats the point !!! larger a margin you allow, the corners of target ( generally top / bottom will start catching pellets as splits or misses !!! because hold correction was actually required & it was not getting done ... add in some ranging error we all do time to time ... Yup potential misses.
So while we can agree to disagree .. I'm calling B/S on that one.

 

[cavedweller]

Barrel length does not matter, only pellets weight and speed calibrated to a determined BC value.
I can absolutely state the trajectory IS NOT flat outside at most @ 8-10 yards.


*Larger a margin on zero range you allow, greater will this perceived flat trajectory become. And thats the point !!! larger a margin you allow, the corners of target ( generally top / bottom will start catching pellets as splits or misses !!! because hold correction was actually required & it was not getting done ... add in some ranging error we all do time to time ... Yup potential misses.
So while we can agree to disagree .. I'm calling B/S on that one.

@Motorhead - I don't mind the proverbial BS flag, in fact i see a waving flag as necessary to the process of civil discourse and learning.
BUT that said...
The dope "is" what the dope "is" (me included) shots taken foot by foot, yard by yard, and speed verified and results thus annotated.
Interesting to say the least - and to date, 20 plus guns later, not another gun has achieved that long of a "happy apex"... very scientific word thoughts.
Although this particular bulpup style and setup sucks to shoot offhand... several seasoned HFT shooters were also quite surprised when the trigger pull and score matched the dope two weeks back. I'm still way too new at this game or science to know why, but is it possible the longer barrel created more pellet stability? I know, i know... unlikely. But - my "larger a margin on zero range" is no different on any airgun i have set up. I do absolutely understand the "sweeping curve" both up and down that our pellets take... with a marginal or relative flat zone in the middle or so we assume. Thanks for the wisdom.

 

[RScott]

I think your long flat trajectory (27-48 yards) is due to the scope being mounted high above the bore. The "tell" for the high mount is the large holdover at short distances on your dope sheet. (The holdover for a 0-1 yard shot is basically the height of the scope over the bore.) When the scope is raised several inches above the bore, the trajectory at longer distances flattens. Some European FT shooters who have to "eyeball" range distances have mounted scopes over 6 inches above the bore. But this makes short shots highly sensitive to accurate holdover determination and ranging.