This is why you have a "flat" shooting gun. Mounting a scope equally high will make your other guns flat too.
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Steyr Steyr LG110 HFT
- Thread starter cavedweller
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This is one of the reasons i did not get into FT (besides my physical limits) I like the old ways of shooting = guestimate and aim / fire .
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I do not know the shooting history of all of the posters here but….
I do know that one of them was a “National Hunter Field Target Champion” back when all we used was were 12X scopes.
If memory serves he used a Marauder rifle (tuned by himself, of course
.
I and many others try and listen to what he has to say.
Just my opinon, of course!
I do know that one of them was a “National Hunter Field Target Champion” back when all we used was were 12X scopes.
If memory serves he used a Marauder rifle (tuned by himself, of course
.I and many others try and listen to what he has to say.
Just my opinon, of course!
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That is the exact way I shoot FT now. I use no drop data at all.
It is more fun and that is why at, soon to be 79, I do it.
I compete with no one but my self.
Just like when playing golf, which I have never done.
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My "flat" zone (zero holdover) runs from 27 to 34 yards. However, I'm at only .1 mrad at 25, 26, 35-39 yards. What's weird is I seem to miss more shots in the 25-31 range than any other distances. I contribute that to either a peek or lazy shot from over confidence or possibly the ratio of kill zone to distance. Something I have to work on.
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required..
I think your right. As my longest sweet spots are on my Alphawolf and BRK Ghost which are both bullpup platforms and in order to achieve a comfortable cheek weld and eyebox i have to raise the scope up more than my other guns or 3" instead of an average of 2.25"
BUT
If i understand you wise ol airgunners, this is a Alphawolf = thus i can change my 27" barrel back to the 13" carbine and rezero at the exact point as the 27" barrel and my dope (trajectory) should remain unchanged as all the other settings: pellet weight, pellet speed etc.. will remain the same.
What do you think will happen? @RScott @Motorhead @thomasair
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Is your 27” barrel rifled all the way or is it only rifled to 13”.
The extra length for aesthetics??
The barrel on the Marauder for example is quite short with some baffles in front.
The extra length for aesthetics??
The barrel on the Marauder for example is quite short with some baffles in front.
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Indeed the conversation of trajectory profile can go deep in cause & effect with a high / higher scope C/L position increases having a somewhat flatter trajectory profile at the further distances ..... Tho not realistically flat as thought, the COST of doing so is the correction in holdover required at the shorter distances is exponentially VERY large over a lower scope mounted C/L height.
For those who shoot WFTF under a European format there are very few if any close shots 10-15 yards/ meters where this really can bite you in the butt !!
Most shots are full KZ sizes tho at the further distances where a flatter trajectory profile has benefit & especially at >12 fpe power levels.
American AAFTA events where combined Hunter / Open / WFTF share a common course, we see these 10-15 yards shots as common and your forced to deal with the radical hold correction that comes with a high scope height if at the higher positions.
In the FT game ... sadly there is no crutch or advantages unless applied to the more specific application of Power and distances your needing to compensate for.
Thus the game .... IMO
For those who shoot WFTF under a European format there are very few if any close shots 10-15 yards/ meters where this really can bite you in the butt !!
Most shots are full KZ sizes tho at the further distances where a flatter trajectory profile has benefit & especially at >12 fpe power levels.
American AAFTA events where combined Hunter / Open / WFTF share a common course, we see these 10-15 yards shots as common and your forced to deal with the radical hold correction that comes with a high scope height if at the higher positions.
In the FT game ... sadly there is no crutch or advantages unless applied to the more specific application of Power and distances your needing to compensate for.
Thus the game .... IMO
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Makes absolute sense. I've often wondered why the big differences in the way the game is played... understand <12 < 20 ft lbs thing but no belly busting, stick touching, here in the US of A ?
I may open a thread in the Field Target section, as a better place for overall discussion of said nuances.
Resources - USA vs European Field Target
I've tried sorting for the various rules. But watching a couple of the British guys. It seems like they shoot "on the peg" with only a glove. The american matches it seems like they are wrapped up in odd looking slings sitting on buckets and such. And somebody lead me to a link or a thread so...
www.airgunnation.com As always your wisdom / experience is very helpful.
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In a conventional PCP, switching to a shorter barrel will result in a somewhat slower muzzle speed under most firing conditions. But an Alphawolf can be programmed to achieve the same speed as you had with the longer barrel.
I like the shorter barrel for weight balance and shorter time from trigger pull to the pellet exiting the barrel. This can reduce the chances of a miss due to gun wavering during the shot.
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Of note, as much as i Like the Alphawolf for Bench rest... for my particular body, it is a very difficult airgun to shoot offhand during HFT because when scoped with my Sightron 10-50x60 FT it pitches the weight just a wee bit too far forward and can even become tippy in the sticks.
That said... on the bench it is formidable.
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Cavedweller,
I like the Alpha Wolf picture! Does that scope rail have a built in MOA? There is a reason I ask.
Where do most folks measure scope height? I ask that question for a reason. In playing around with various ballistics programs and trying to understand how they calculate trajectory I realized what an important role scope height plays. For my FX Crown MkII with a 500 mm barrel shooting 13.4 gr pellets at 820 fps a 1/10 inch change in scope height gives a .25 MOA difference in POI at 30 yds. That is two clicks on my Falcon scope. Maybe not terrible in FT but I have been shooting a lot of AGN 30yd Challange cards and that 2mm difference could change an X into a 9.
All of the programs I looked at use "barrel angle" to set your zero. Barrel angle is the angle between the scope centerline (moved down to the center of the muzzle) and the angle of the barrel. Move the scope up and the barrel angle must increase (measure as positive if the muzzle moves towards the line of sight of the scope) in order for the projectile to hit your zero because the angle must make up for both projectile drop and scope height.
Now if you have a scope rail with one of the now common 20 MOA (or more) built-in "positive or up" barrel angle you can dial less clicks on your scope to make up for the projectile drop and scope height. But what many folks miss is that the 20 MOA barrel up angle actually decreases the scope height. That is because (IMHO) scope height needs to be measured at the muzzle! It is only after the projectile leaves the barrel that gravity begins to do its work. And if you have a 20 MOA scope rail and a 500 mm barrel I am willing to bet the "effective scope height" has decreased by about 0.1 inches. That results in the afore mentioned .25 MOA change in POI.
OK now, am I getting this wrong? Happy to discuss.
Cheers,
Greg
PS - I love your member photo. It always seemed funny to me how the girls loved our dress whites! The collar was a pain, but they did make us look good!!
I like the Alpha Wolf picture! Does that scope rail have a built in MOA? There is a reason I ask.
Where do most folks measure scope height? I ask that question for a reason. In playing around with various ballistics programs and trying to understand how they calculate trajectory I realized what an important role scope height plays. For my FX Crown MkII with a 500 mm barrel shooting 13.4 gr pellets at 820 fps a 1/10 inch change in scope height gives a .25 MOA difference in POI at 30 yds. That is two clicks on my Falcon scope. Maybe not terrible in FT but I have been shooting a lot of AGN 30yd Challange cards and that 2mm difference could change an X into a 9.
All of the programs I looked at use "barrel angle" to set your zero. Barrel angle is the angle between the scope centerline (moved down to the center of the muzzle) and the angle of the barrel. Move the scope up and the barrel angle must increase (measure as positive if the muzzle moves towards the line of sight of the scope) in order for the projectile to hit your zero because the angle must make up for both projectile drop and scope height.
Now if you have a scope rail with one of the now common 20 MOA (or more) built-in "positive or up" barrel angle you can dial less clicks on your scope to make up for the projectile drop and scope height. But what many folks miss is that the 20 MOA barrel up angle actually decreases the scope height. That is because (IMHO) scope height needs to be measured at the muzzle! It is only after the projectile leaves the barrel that gravity begins to do its work. And if you have a 20 MOA scope rail and a 500 mm barrel I am willing to bet the "effective scope height" has decreased by about 0.1 inches. That results in the afore mentioned .25 MOA change in POI.
OK now, am I getting this wrong? Happy to discuss.
Cheers,
Greg
PS - I love your member photo. It always seemed funny to me how the girls loved our dress whites! The collar was a pain, but they did make us look good!!
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@thomasair - I made the switcharoo from the 28" barrel to the 17". I was surprised my zero had to be adjusted on the scope as i did not touch the scope mounting? Once rezero'd my long sweet spot shrank several yards on the far end of things, even though pellet weight and speed were the same.... I also had to go in and re-tweak Strelock settings a bit as close in shots were also off.
I will say an Alphawolf is a fun way to play with pellet variables like speed, weight etc... back to the proverbial drawing board. Good news is i am getting lots of trigger time.
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@NAProf Yes, the daystate monorail has 20 moa built in... i use on a variety of platforms (esp bull pups) because it provides me with a better cheek weld / comfy neck position. And Provided my memory doesn't lag to far behind my mouth, somewhere in my sorted past i asked the exact question about MOA to Igor the inventor of Strelock Pro, and he told it was of no significance for the distances we shoot FT. Igor can be found on his Facebook strelock pro group.
wish i had the same body i had when i was tucked into the dress whites.
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When switching barrels, it's likely that your vertical zero changed. One barrel is likely to shoot higher or lower due to the inherent radial runout. This will affect your apparent trajectory. I say apparent because it's the combination of scope height in relation to the exit path of the muzzle that will alter the trajectory you are seeing.
The part I'm trying to convey is that the actual flight of the pellet is the same ...but the way its its perceived can be altered by scope height. You can change "scope height" by rotating your barrel.
The part I'm trying to convey is that the actual flight of the pellet is the same ...but the way its its perceived can be altered by scope height. You can change "scope height" by rotating your barrel.
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