Springer vs. PCP

[3Crows]

So no challenges for you? LOL

"Hunters" are the only unethical thing in the equation, an airgun is just an airgun, it can't do anything on its own... Don't push BS that a springer is "unethical", the meat popsicle selecting the rifle, prey and pulling the trigger is the only issue when it comes to hunting ethics.

When the top springer shooters shoot pcp in competition, the pcp shooters better be on their A game or they will get crushed. Train accordingly or get destroyed.

Springers are not ethical for the animals I hunt and pest. I clearly said "sizable" animals. A springer cannot have the power or range of a strong pcp in .25 or larger caliber. Springers are too large, too heavy, too long, lacking in power and the few .25 caliber springers I have seen including owning one was like getting slapped in the face with a hammer everytime I pulled the trigger. When, wich will never be, there is a sub 40 inches, sub 8 pounds fully equipped springer that can reliably and accurately drive a .25 caliber pellet at 900 fps without the obnoxious scope destroying reverse recoil I will give them another look see. Something like the TX200 under lever with a titanium tube and barrel (lined) to keep bare weight below 7 pounds, 39 inches long and running a .25 pellet at least 800 fps. And no reverse recoil. I will have a look see.

 

[Jonnes]

without the obnoxious scope destroying reverse recoil

You do know that most known brands in the airgun world like Element Optics, Hawke, UTG, Vortex, etc. offer "safe for springer" rated scopes, right?!

Springers are not ethical for the animals I hunt and pest.

Which are? If you're talking deer, hog or any other medium to large size game, no one in his right mind will tell you to use a (small caliber) PCP, let alone a springer. That's the kind of job for a large caliber, fast shooting, center fire rifle. This forum is called "Airgun" Nation, not "Big game fire boomsticks nation". Heck, I just might start that forum. You joining me?

But seriously. Anything with feathers from the size of a phat goose downwards, to something with fur like trash panda and smaller, at close range, can safely and humanly be shot with a (hight power, .22 and bigger) springer. As long as you place an accurate shot in the nugget, preferably cleanly behind the ear according to the "aim small, miss small" principle. You must know the retaining energy, ballistics, to be able to do that. Would I advice it? Nope, but that's a different story. With PCP's, you can hunt medium to large sized game at close range (100 yards) as long as the caliber and speed offer enough energy to cleanly kill the animal at it's distance. I have hunted hogs in Texas (at the range of my friends father) once with a .45 caliber slug slinging PCP at ranges varying from 40 to 120 yards, dropping them instantly with a nice clean and ethical headshot. I'm even convinced it will kill basically anything with a heartbeat at those distances.

But regardless, TS is asking about what is wise to buy for a lot of father/(young!!!) son time learning the little one how to handle a gun and shoot safely, asking if he should get a springer or (for lazy shooters) PCP for that. So let's not introduce hunting (not small critter pest-control) into the equation. Not relevant IMHO.

Might be better to keep Apple's to Apple's and so on so forth.

Now that's probably the most sensible thing I've read so far in this topic.

 

[coastal drifter]

I like them both, that being said if you're looking for accuracy at distances beyond 50 yards it would be hard to beat a PCP, especially if you're looking for power in larger calibers.22+. Springers are a much simpler gun with less support items needed like a high-pressure air compressor or even a scope. As I said in the beginnig of my post I like them both for deferent reasons. My HW95 (springer) will hit a 2inch spinner 10 out of 10 times if I do my part with plenty of power to humanely kill most small game.

 

[.20calguy]

I just looked it up. Somehow it had escaped my notice. Beautiful rifle!

They are that and more.

 

[.20calguy]

Anybody that thinks springers are just as accurate as pcps needs to print out some 30 yard challenge targets and prove it. The only springer scores I've seen are much lower. But my poor view of springers is no doubt in large part because I've never shot a nice one.

Like you said, It depends on which guns you're comparing.

 

[JimD]

Jonnes may yet prove his position that springers are just as accurate as PCPs but he posted two 200s with PCPs and a 185 he shot with a nice springer. I do not truly know one way or the other but the fact that the scores for springers are not on the 30 yard challenge thread or, to my knowledge, elsewhere suggests PCPs have an advantage when shot from a bench rest. That would not mean springers are not great airguns. I would be happy to be proved wrong but at this point I don't think springers are as accurate from a bench.

 

[jkingrph]

Not having, nor having ever shot a PCP I cannot actually compare. Now I have 18 extremely nice springers and one SSP. I would think the PCP would inherently be more accurate as you do not have a spring and piston suddenly accelerating and then suddenly stopping while the pellet is transiting the barrel. Of the springers 3 are pure target models, two older FWB 150 and one FWB 300 and for my shooting find them about the same in accuracy as the SSP FWB 602, and much easier to shoot. I can stretch shooting to about 45 yards at my house, but since getting some severe rather painful arthritis in one knee, I generally limit my shooting to 10 or 20 yards, and use aperture sights on most of my favorite guns.

 

[beerthief]

Should? No, why? Could? When you have the balls, yes! Is it fun to outshoot those "lazy" PCP shooters, see those jaws drop when you outshoot them, and feel like an actual boss when you do? HELL YEAH!



According to the postal service, my new shooting bags will arrive today. In the coming days I'll mount the SideWinder to my HW97K and do the last target to see what it does with a better reticle and larger magnification. To be continued...



That's my experience also.



And that my friend, is what shooting springers makes such a s..t load of fun! But springers outshooting PCP's can be done, if and when the shooter plays it's part well. I.e., when the shooter knows how to shoot. That's why I always say; learn (kids) to shoot with a springer, if they can handle that, they can handle practically any type of weapon. From a "lazy" zero-recoil PCP, to a large caliber center fire rifle. Especially now (here in Europe), that might come in handy when those damned Ruskies try to cross our border.



That man is a legend! I've haven't had the privilege yet. Most of us can learn a lot from that man.

Should springer shooters be shooting the same scores as the pcp shooters in field target?
I get that same look when i beat .22 powder burners at Bench rest with my "BB' gun ( Mac 1 USFT .177 #233 ) am trying to do the same with HW97 but it is a lot harder Why did my type switch ?

 

[beerthief]

Jonnes may yet prove his position that springers are just as accurate as PCPs but he posted two 200s with PCPs and a 185 he shot with a nice springer. I do not truly know one way or the other but the fact that the scores for springers are not on the 30 yard challenge thread or, to my knowledge, elsewhere suggests PCPs have an advantage when shot from a bench rest. That would not mean springers are not great airguns. I would be happy to be proved wrong but at this point I don't think springers are as accurate from a bench.

this is 30 yards yesterday , bench TX200 .177 12.25 FPE just playing with a new target i pasted up

 

[RCope]

I'm a little late to this thread (on vacation for a couple weeks). But in my limited experience (12 amazing springers and 4 high end PCP's), the best springer (for me FWB 150) cannot approach the accuracy and repeatability that the PCP's can. But I'm an inexperienced amateur that shoots in my back yard. So take my experience and opinion with a grain of salt. I routinely post in both the "what springer have you shot today" thread and the 30 yd challenge thread. My 192 with the FWB 150 was great, but I freely admit that the same rifle, in a better marksman's hands, could do a lot better. But even I shot a 200 with a Red Wolf.

I shoot off of a cheap front rest and a rear bag for both springers and PCP's, as do most of the competitors in the 30 yd thread. It is a friendly competition. I do have a new Seb AR 250 front rest that I'm anxious to dial in. Not that there is anything wrong with a "vice" for benchrest. And the scoring is normalized by using a .22 scoring plug. Without that, accurate scoring is really challenging. For example, @Jonnes scoring for 1B in his springer example is suspect as an "X" ;-).

Cheers! Rick

 

[beerthief]

I'm a little late to this thread (on vacation for a couple weeks). But in my limited experience (12 amazing springers and 4 high end PCP's), the best springer (for me FWB 150) cannot approach the accuracy and repeatability that the PCP's can. But I'm an inexperienced amateur that shoots in my back yard. So take my experience and opinion with a grain of salt. I routinely post in both the "what springer have you shot today" thread and the 30 yd challenge thread. My 192 with the FWB 150 was great, but I freely admit that the same rifle, in a better marksman's hands, could do a lot better. But even I shot a 200 with a Red Wolf.

I shoot off of a cheap front rest and a rear bag for both springers and PCP's, as do most of the competitors in the 30 yd thread. It is a friendly competition. I do have a new Seb AR 250 front rest that I'm anxious to dial in. Not that there is anything wrong with a "vice" for benchrest. And the scoring is normalized by using a .22 scoring plug. Without that, accurate scoring is really challenging. For example, @Jonnes scoring for 1B in his springer example is suspect as an "X" ;-).

Cheers! Rick

i use a .177 plug as i shoot .177 wadcutter pellets (nice clean hole in the targets ) easy to see if i cut a line or miss completely .

 

[Jonnes]

this is 30 yards yesterday , bench TX200 .177 12.25 FPE just playing with a new target i pasted up View attachment 581287

Dang, you just proved that springers aren't accurate.

Excellent shooting mate.

Should springer shooters be shooting the same scores as the pcp shooters in field target?
I get that same look when i beat .22 powder burners at Bench rest with my "BB' gun ( Mac 1 USFT .177 #233 ) am trying to do the same with HW97 but it is a lot harder Why did my type switch ?

Spot on! Field Target competitions is where I outshoot PCP's regularly. Should one? Again, no because it's a different class... so why. Can they? Yep, they can. But since the proverbial devil is in the details, (H)FT isn't about hitting a 3mm 10-ring at 30 yards. The "hit" at (H)FT is generally substantially bigger than that at variable distances. That's where the challenge lies. Not in static shooting, hitting the same thing each and every time from a bench vise, which is for lazy people IMHO. TS was talking about hunting and learning the game, training his youngster for that, and you can have that kid better learn how to shoot a springer (learning to cope with recoil is important in the hunting game with fire arms) than with a recoilless PCP. Shooting HFT with a springer is the perfect way to learn how to shoot while hunting. For that, a springer is the better tool. That is basically the question of TS. Anything else is just a useless meta discussion.

Not directly aimed at you @beerthief, but just in general. This whole discussion about accuracy in PCP's vs springers is getting up to a level that goes way beyond semantics or any other form of logic, or better yet, it's now at the pathetic level of: mine is bigger than yours. Seriously guys, are we going down that route?! Here's a lesson from gramps: as long as you know how to use "your tool" correctly, how to reach your goal, and how to hit that right spot and trigger the happy-reaction consistently, you're the man. But let me make myself clear: you can accomplish it with both "tools"! I leave it up to y'all to decide which one. ;-)

Also, what bugs me is that those PCP fanboys are constantly changing the rules, like "distance" for instance. And that's becoming quite anoying. Rewind; at some point in the beginning of this discussion, the question was "are springers accurate compared to PCP's". Then someone introduced the "how accurate at 30 yards and a 3mm 10-ring" variable. Then some of you changed the game by saying" try this at 50 yards, sure it won't be as accurate". The next question was; "is it accurate at 75 meters or yards". Wow, HALT! Generally speaking you don't use springers for distances over 45 yards (in HFT and pest control, that's about the (ethical) limit), so why go there?! You don't use a small hatchback like a VW Golf with 1.0 TSI engine go up against an Audi A8 with a 6-liter W12 engine. They can both cruise comfortably on the road at 60 miles an hour, but you don't go racing against the more powerful type of car because it just doesn't make sense. So don't go that route with airguns, for Pete's sake!

For all you infidels or semantic effers: try shooting accurately at 300 yards with a PCP or springer. Because I can do that all day long with my $5,300 costing Bleiker Sport II 6mm centerfire competition rifle, or my SIG 550 (i.e. Stgw90 service rifle)! Oh, that's not a fair comparison you say?! Excactly!!! It has been said before, you can't integrally compare PCP's with springers, just like you can't compare PCP's with fire arms. But are they all accurate in their own respect, for their specific purpose, if the shooter does his or her thing right? Yes, if you play your part, the rifle will follow and you will hit the "kill-"zone when needed each and every time.

So coming back to (H)FT, that target is bigger than with the 3mm 30-yard bench challenge 10-ring. (H)FT targets are big enough for me to complete a whole track with a PCP or with (my tuned) springer without a single miss in both cases. Is that accurate? Frack yes, because it makes me win the competition with the not-preferred tool that is more difficult to use, but therefor way more satisfying! If you don't think that's accurate, you you should have head examined (pardon my French).

Better yet, if you are so full of it, just try to shoot this challenge with a PCP with scope, compared to shooting a PCP match rifle like my Feinwerkbau 800W at just 10 yards with open (diopter) sights on a ISSF 10-meter air rifle taget. I dare you, I double dare you mother lover! (hear the voice of Sam Jackson in Pulp Fiction)

I would like to present you; a 10-shot group from the prone position (no benchrest, bipod, sand bag or fixation of any kind, just the rifle in my hand) with my FWB 800W.

Here another (this time) 60-shot group, shot standing off-hand (no bench rest, what ever type of fixation, just the rifle laying in my hand) shot with the same FWB800W.

Again, just to get it clear; both of these targets are shot off-hand, one prone and one from the standing position. NOT from a bench, sandbags, clamped into something, no vices or bipods or anything else that fixates or rests the rifle. No, nothing but your hand to support the rifle. If you can do this with any of your PCP's that are not an ISSF 10-meter air rifles (even with a scope), we can talk further. Because this is my true definition of "shooting accurately", which is at an Olympic level. Ergo; hitting a 10 which is 0.5mm (or 0,019 inch for you Imperial dudes) 60 times in a row.

Is this a fair game according to you? Probably not, because the definition of accuracy, the level of training you got, if you shoot on a (semi-)professional level or not, your equipment, target, the tuning (including ammo-testing and selection), the purpose of the rifle and the game you play, is what it all comes down to. Everything else is semantics. <start-arrogance-and-irritation-mode> Oh, and did I mention that these targets above are mine? I shot them recently during a training session with the pressure of a coach that was pushing all my buttons at once. Both off-hand, the first prone, the second standing, did I mention that?! </end-arrogance-and-irritation-mode>

Grüezi mitenand, as we say here.

Sorry for all the edits, but English is not my native language (German is) and my writings sometimes contain some typos and weird sentences.

 

[coastal drifter]

Dang, you just proved that springers aren't accurate.

Excellent shooting mate.



Spot on! Field Target competitions is where I outshoot PCP's regularly. Should? Again, no because it's a different class... so why. Can they? Yep, they can. But since the proverbial devil is in the details, (H)FT isn't about hitting a 3mm 10-ring at 30 yards. The "hit" at (H)FT is generally substantially bigger than that at variable distances. That's where the challenge lies, not in static shooting (benchrest) hitting the same thing each and every time, which is for lazy people IMHO.

Not directly aimed at you @beerthief, but just in general. This whole discussion about accuracy in PCP's vs springers is getting up to a level that goes way beyond semantics or any other form of logic, or better yet, it's now at the pathetic level of: mine is bigger than yours. As long as you know how to use it correctly, the goal is to hit the right spot and trigger the happy-reaction, you can accomplish the same goals with both tools.

Also, those PCP fanboys are constantly changing the variables, like "distance" for instance. Rewind; at some point the question was "are springers accurate". Then someone introduced the "how accurate at 30 yards on a 3mm 10-ring" question. Then some of you changed the game by saying" try this at 50 yards, sure it won't be as accurate". The first variable was "is it accurate. Generally speaking you don't use springers for distances over 45 yards (in HFT and pest control, that's about the (ethical) max).

Try shooting accuratly at 300 yards with a PCP or springer. Because I can do that all day long with my Bleiker Sport II 6mm centerfire competition rifle, or my SIG 550 (my Stgw90 service rifle)! No comparison? Excactly, it has been said before, you can't integrally compare PCP's with springers, just like you can't compare PCP's with fire arms. But are they all accurate in their own respect? Yes, if you do your job, the rifle will follow. At (H)FT the target is bigger. Big enough for me to complete a whole track with a PCP or my tuned springer, without a miss. Is that accurate? I would say so. If you don't think that's accurate, you have some strange views on what is.

Or try to shoot this challenge with a PCP with scope, compared to shooting a PCP match rifle like my Feinwerkbau 800W at just 10 yards with open (diopter) sights. I dare you, I double dare you!

One 10-shot group from the prone position (no benchrest, bipod, sand bag or fixation of any kind, just the rifle in my hand).

View attachment 581866

One 60-shot group, shot standing off-hand (no bench rest, what ever type of fixation, just the rifle laying in my hand.

View attachment 581867

Both shot off-hand, one prone and one from the standing position. Again: NOT from a bench, sandbags, clamped in to something, no vices or bipods or anything else that fixates or rests the rifle. No, this is just old school off-hand shooting. If you can do this with any PCP that is not an ISSF 10-meter air rifle, we can talk further. Because this is "shooting accurately" at an Olympic level, hitting a 10 which is 0.5mm (or 0,019 inch for you Imperial dudes) each and every time.

Is that a fair game for you? I dare to say: probably not, because the definition of accuracy, the level of training you got, if you shoot on a (semi-)professional level, the equipment, the tuning (and ammo-testing and selection), the purpose of the rifle and the game you play, is what it all comes down to. Everything else is semantics. Oh, and yes, these targets above are mine, I shot them recently during a training session. The first prone, the second standing. Both off ye good old hand. </end-arrogance-and-irritation-mode>

Grüezi mitenand, as we say here.

nice shooting ...like a virgin gudintight

 

[beerthief]

Dang, you just proved that springers aren't accurate.

Excellent shooting mate.



Spot on! Field Target competitions is where I outshoot PCP's regularly. Should? Again, no because it's a different class... so why. Can they? Yep, they can. But since the proverbial devil is in the details, (H)FT isn't about hitting a 3mm 10-ring at 30 yards. The "hit" at (H)FT is generally substantially bigger than that at variable distances. That's where the challenge lies, not in static shooting (benchrest) hitting the same thing each and every time, which is for lazy people IMHO.

Not directly aimed at you @beerthief, but just in general. This whole discussion about accuracy in PCP's vs springers is getting up to a level that goes way beyond semantics or any other form of logic, or better yet, it's now at the pathetic level of: mine is bigger than yours. As long as you know how to use it correctly, the goal is to hit the right spot and trigger the happy-reaction, you can accomplish the same goals with both tools.

Also, those PCP fanboys are constantly changing the variables, like "distance" for instance. Rewind; at some point the question was "are springers accurate". Then someone introduced the "how accurate at 30 yards on a 3mm 10-ring" question. Then some of you changed the game by saying" try this at 50 yards, sure it won't be as accurate". The first variable was "is it accurate. Generally speaking you don't use springers for distances over 45 yards (in HFT and pest control, that's about the (ethical) max).

Try shooting accuratly at 300 yards with a PCP or springer. Because I can do that all day long with my Bleiker Sport II 6mm centerfire competition rifle, or my SIG 550 (my Stgw90 service rifle)! No comparison? Excactly, it has been said before, you can't integrally compare PCP's with springers, just like you can't compare PCP's with fire arms. But are they all accurate in their own respect? Yes, if you do your job, the rifle will follow. At (H)FT the target is bigger. Big enough for me to complete a whole track with a PCP or my tuned springer, without a miss. Is that accurate? I would say so. If you don't think that's accurate, you have some strange views on what is.

Or try to shoot this challenge with a PCP with scope, compared to shooting a PCP match rifle like my Feinwerkbau 800W at just 10 yards with open (diopter) sights. I dare you, I double dare you!

One 10-shot group from the prone position (no benchrest, bipod, sand bag or fixation of any kind, just the rifle in my hand).

View attachment 581866

One 60-shot group, shot standing off-hand (no bench rest, what ever type of fixation, just the rifle laying in my hand.

View attachment 581867

Both shot off-hand, one prone and one from the standing position. Again: NOT from a bench, sandbags, clamped in to something, no vices or bipods or anything else that fixates or rests the rifle. No, this is just old school off-hand shooting. If you can do this with any PCP that is not an ISSF 10-meter air rifle, we can talk further. Because this is "shooting accurately" at an Olympic level, hitting a 10 which is 0.5mm (or 0,019 inch for you Imperial dudes) each and every time.

Is that a fair game for you? I dare to say: probably not, because the definition of accuracy, the level of training you got, if you shoot on a (semi-)professional level, the equipment, the tuning (and ammo-testing and selection), the purpose of the rifle and the game you play, is what it all comes down to. Everything else is semantics. Oh, and yes, these targets above are mine, I shot them recently during a training session. The first prone, the second standing. Both off ye good old hand. </end-arrogance-and-irritation-mode>

Grüezi mitenand, as we say here.

Wonderful read over first coffee in the AM . Thankyou

 

[JW.]

Springers are not ethical for the animals I hunt and pest. I clearly said "sizable" animals. A springer cannot have the power or range of a strong pcp in .25 or larger caliber. Springers are too large, too heavy, too long, lacking in power and the few .25 caliber springers I have seen including owning one was like getting slapped in the face with a hammer everytime I pulled the trigger. When, wich will never be, there is a sub 40 inches, sub 8 pounds fully equipped springer that can reliably and accurately drive a .25 caliber pellet at 900 fps without the obnoxious scope destroying reverse recoil I will give them another look see. Something like the TX200 under lever with a titanium tube and barrel (lined) to keep bare weight below 7 pounds, 39 inches long and running a .25 pellet at least 800 fps. And no reverse recoil. I will have a look see.

Well a 25cal is unethical for water buffalo...

 

[coastal drifter]

Well a 25cal is unethical for water buffalo...

shot placement shot placement!

 

[3Crows]

Well a 25cal is unethical for water buffalo...

You are just being silly . Every hunter decides for themselves what is sporting and what is not and what is ethical and what is not. Your springs guns, none of them, meet my criteria no matter how much you whine about my choices. They are my choices. You do you. I will do me. Springer vs PCP, no contest. Make mine PCP, I have no use for springer guns.

 

[JW.]

You are just being silly . Every hunter decides for themselves what is sporting and what is not and what is ethical and what is not. Your springs guns, none of them, meet my criteria no matter how much you whine about my choices. They are my choices. You do you. I will do me. Springer vs PCP, no contest. Make mine PCP, I have no use for springer guns.

This and everything you have said has nothing to do with what this post is about...