Tuning Springer Tuning: More spring or more spacers for power?

[Sqwirl57]

Im pretty new to springer tuning and had a question for the more experienced tuners out there. Given a set power that you are aiming to tune for (let's say 12ftlbs) do you prefer a longer spring or a shorter spring with some spacers to add preload? Does it matter? Does it affect shot cycle at all? Aside from coil count/OAL, let's assume both springs are otherwise identical.

To clarify what I'm talking about here. Assume you're starting out with a 14fpe spring. Would you prefer to cut away at it until you're sitting at 11.7ftlbs or would you rather cut it all the way down to 10fpe and then add some shims to the spring to bring it back up to 11.7fpe?

 

[dizzums]

i generally was never looking for power in a spring .. i wanted things smooth and reasonably easy to cycle so polished the bore and used a spring that fit well and gooped it up with some real tacky crap and be sure the seal is in top shape .. power for the most part is gonna be a function of the bore diameter and volume .. as long as you can achieve some consistency is the main thing ... not an expert but did quite a bit of 'springerin' back in the day .. some of the guys over at gta are the real gurus with them and can point you to proper materials and methods ..

 

[Sqwirl57]

i generally was never looking for power in a spring .. i wanted things smooth and reasonably easy to cycle so polished the bore and used a spring that fit well and gooped it up with some real tacky crap and be sure the seal is in top shape .. power for the most part is gonna be a function of the bore diameter and volume .. as long as you can achieve some consistency is the main thing ... not an expert but did quite a bit of 'springerin' back in the day .. some of the guys over at gta are the real gurus with them and can point you to proper materials and methods ..

I'm not necessarily going for power here. I edited my post to clarify what I meant just before you replied so you probably didn't catch it. I'm looking to see which method, if any, would ultimately be smoother.

 

[OldSpook]

i generally was never looking for power in a spring .. i wanted things smooth and reasonably easy to cycle so polished the bore and used a spring that fit well and gooped it up with some real tacky crap and be sure the seal is in top shape .. power for the most part is gonna be a function of the bore diameter and volume .. as long as you can achieve some consistency is the main thing ... not an expert but did quite a bit of 'springerin' back in the day .. some of the guys over at gta are the real gurus with them and can point you to proper materials and methods ..

I'm not necessarily going for power here. I edited my post to clarify what I meant just before you replied so you probably didn't catch it. I'm looking to see which method, if any, would ultimately be smoother.

You need to call John in PA and ask him that question or one of the other fellows, maybe Motorhead.

It seems to me like a short fast stroke is going to be better than a long slow stroke as long as they produce the same energy because travel time for a longer stroke from the same spring would also be longer. That means lock time would be longer. That is if you define it as the time between sear release and pellet exit. Longer lock time implies more sensitivity to follow through, and larger impulse values imparted to the rifle during firing.

But hey, I just make it up as I go along. Trust someone who really has a clue.

 

[AirShot]

All depends on the rifle, if your trying to get a long stroke 15 fpe rifle down to 12 ft lb then a weaker spring, but....it will have a longer lock time so hold becomes more critical. No simple answer to your question!! Spent 30 yrs tunning springers and each one has differences. Typically I tried springs to achieve the power level wanted with spacers and shims to fine tune. Shot cycle is another criteria, is the piston slamming or bouncing back at the end of the stroke?? General rule of thumb was if piston is bouncing then more weight inside piston ( top hat weight), if slamming at stroke endvthen take away wright in piston or add spacers at bottom of spring. Tuning takes time and many adjustments to get it really right. Back in the day it was not unusual to take a rifle apart anywhere from 5 to 10 times to get it just right! Much of this trial and error has been documented over the years which has allowed kits to be created and sold for do it yourself guys. For the most part they work well, but for that infinite perfect shot cycle some minor adjustment with shims and weights might be needed. No simple one thing that works for all rifles!!!! Good luck

 

[Jlowe]

Im pretty new to springer tuning and had a question for the more experienced tuners out there. Given a set power that you are aiming to tune for (let's say 12ftlbs) do you prefer a longer spring or a shorter spring with some spacers to add preload? Does it matter? Does it affect shot cycle at all? Aside from coil count/OAL, let's assume both springs are otherwise identical.

To clarify what I'm talking about here. Assume you're starting out with a 14fpe spring. Would you prefer to cut away at it until you're sitting at 11.7ftlbs or would you rather cut it all the way down to 10fpe and then add some shims to the spring to bring it back up to 11.7fpe?

Which springer are you referring to? 

 

[Sqwirl57]

Im pretty new to springer tuning and had a question for the more experienced tuners out there. Given a set power that you are aiming to tune for (let's say 12ftlbs) do you prefer a longer spring or a shorter spring with some spacers to add preload? Does it matter? Does it affect shot cycle at all? Aside from coil count/OAL, let's assume both springs are otherwise identical.

To clarify what I'm talking about here. Assume you're starting out with a 14fpe spring. Would you prefer to cut away at it until you're sitting at 11.7ftlbs or would you rather cut it all the way down to 10fpe and then add some shims to the spring to bring it back up to 11.7fpe?

Which springer are you referring to?

Either a 97K or a TX200

 

[Sqwirl57]

All depends on the rifle, if your trying to get a long stroke 15 fpe rifle down to 12 ft lb then a weaker spring, but....it will have a longer lock time so hold becomes more critical. No simple answer to your question!! Spent 30 yrs tunning springers and each one has differences. Typically I tried springs to achieve the power level wanted with spacers and shims to fine tune. Shot cycle is another criteria, is the piston slamming or bouncing back at the end of the stroke?? General rule of thumb was if piston is bouncing then more weight inside piston ( top hat weight), if slamming at stroke endvthen take away wright in piston or add spacers at bottom of spring. Tuning takes time and many adjustments to get it really right. Back in the day it was not unusual to take a rifle apart anywhere from 5 to 10 times to get it just right! Much of this trial and error has been documented over the years which has allowed kits to be created and sold for do it yourself guys. For the most part they work well, but for that infinite perfect shot cycle some minor adjustment with shims and weights might be needed. No simple one thing that works for all rifles!!!! Good luck

All good info! Thank you sir

 

[Jlowe]

Just buy the 12 foot pound spring from Vortek tuning. He will cut one to whatever power you want. 

 

[Sqwirl57]

Just buy the 12 foot pound spring from Vortek tuning. He will cut one to whatever power you want.

Lol I know. Vortek kits are great but they aren't always exactly what you're looking for hence the question. I'm working with one of his kits now but with a custom cut spring. I'm sitting at 12.3fpe but want to get down to 11.7fpe. I have a few options here and I'm trying to see what the best way of going about it is. Cut the spring down little my little until I'm at 11.7 or cut it down more and work my way back up with shims. Both methods will effect the feel of the shot cycle differently so I'm simply asking what peoples thoughts are on the matter.

Realistically I'll probably cut the spring down little by little first. If I don't like the way it feels, I'll cut more off and work my way back up. If I still don't like it, I'll buy another spring and try something else. I'm just experimenting here.

 

[thumper]

If you are talking about getting a TX down to 12fpe, the best thing you can do to it is get a longer latch rod and short stroke it. Otherwise, they get sluggish and lumpy feeling. The stroke on the 97 is already shorter, so it doesn't need it..... coincidence? Not exactly. 

The TX was copied from a modified HW77K in the early days. So the first TX had almost identical powerplant dimensions to the 77, about 25mm boreX81mm stroke. Later on, the TX stroke was lengthened considerably to make more power for the world market. And that's when it kinda went to poop for 12fpe tunes IMO.

But all that aside, a longer softer spring with more preload will generally resist bounce better and cock a little easier than a shorter stiffer spring. 

Law of diminishing returns kicks in quick here though, and every setup will make this effect more or less pronounced. 

In other words, "it depends" on a lot of other variables. 

Personally I always like the longer spring side of things vs a short stiff spring. 

 

[Sqwirl57]

If you are talking about getting a TX down to 12fpe, the best thing you can do to it is get a longer latch rod and short stroke it. Otherwise, they get sluggish and lumpy feeling. The stroke on the 97 is already shorter, so it doesn't need it..... coincidence? Not exactly. 

The TX was copied from a modified HW77K in the early days. So the first TX had almost identical powerplant dimensions to the 77, about 25mm boreX81mm stroke. Later on, the TX stroke was lengthened considerably to make more power for the world market. And that's when it kinda went to poop for 12fpe tunes IMO.

But all that aside, a longer softer spring with more preload will generally resist bounce better and cock a little easier than a shorter stiffer spring. 

Law of diminishing returns kicks in quick here though, and every setup will make this effect more or less pronounced. 

In other words, "it depends" on a lot of other variables. 

Personally I always like the longer spring side of things vs a short stiff spring. 

I'm working on one of my 97Ks with one of the Vortek PG4 kits now but with a custom cut spring (730113-30 with 2 added coils). I'm sitting at 12.3fpe (all spring, no spacers) but want to get down to 11.7fpe. I have a few options here and I'm trying to see what the best way of going about it is. Cut the spring down little my little until I'm at 11.7 or cut it down more and work my way back up with shims. Both methods will effect the feel of the shot cycle differently so I'm basically just asking what peoples thoughts are on the matter and trying to learn something new.

Realistically I'll probably cut the spring down little by little first. If I don't like the way it feels, I'll cut more off and work my way back up. If I still don't like it, I'll buy another spring and try something else. I'm just experimenting here.

 

[Jlowe]

Just buy the 12 foot pound spring from Vortek tuning. He will cut one to whatever power you want.

Lol I know. Vortek kits are great but they aren't always exactly what you're looking for hence the question. I'm working with one of his kits now but with a custom cut spring. I'm sitting at 12.3fpe but want to get down to 11.7fpe. I have a few options here and I'm trying to see what the best way of going about it is. Cut the spring down little my little until I'm at 11.7 or cut it down more and work my way back up with shims. Both methods will effect the feel of the shot cycle differently so I'm simply asking what peoples thoughts are on the matter.

Realistically I'll probably cut the spring down little by little first. If I don't like the way it feels, I'll cut more off and work my way back up. If I still don't like it, I'll buy another spring and try something else. I'm just experimenting here.

Didn't say a kit. I said a spring. You can get him to cut you one just below what you want and build it back up with spacers. I've have used him for years to get what I want out of a gun. He is very knowledgeable. I have tuned 20+ springers. 

 

[Sqwirl57]

Just buy the 12 foot pound spring from Vortek tuning. He will cut one to whatever power you want.

Lol I know. Vortek kits are great but they aren't always exactly what you're looking for hence the question. I'm working with one of his kits now but with a custom cut spring. I'm sitting at 12.3fpe but want to get down to 11.7fpe. I have a few options here and I'm trying to see what the best way of going about it is. Cut the spring down little my little until I'm at 11.7 or cut it down more and work my way back up with shims. Both methods will effect the feel of the shot cycle differently so I'm simply asking what peoples thoughts are on the matter.

Realistically I'll probably cut the spring down little by little first. If I don't like the way it feels, I'll cut more off and work my way back up. If I still don't like it, I'll buy another spring and try something else. I'm just experimenting here.

Didn't say a kit. I said a spring. You can get him to cut you one just below what you want and build it back up with spacers. I've have used him for years to get what I want out of a gun. He is very knowledgeable. I have tuned 20+ springers.

I understand that my man. My question here is pretty simple. What affect would a shorter cut spring with spacers have vs just a longer spring. I'm trying to learn here not just slap something together that someone else cherry picked parts for me. I want to know WHY it works not just that it works.

 

[AirShot]

Arevyou using a top hat? If so plastic or steel? If not are you using any spacers? If not and just using a spring only then yes the spring needs to be cut. However also keep in mind the spring will take a set after a couple hundred rounds, so your 12.3 may become 11.7 after a few hundred rounds. Lock time will be long, I would recomend a longer shaft piston designed for 12 ft lb. Shortens the stroke and makes lock time shorter.

The original TX200 was designed by Ken Turner but some of his prototypes and idea was taken from him for unexplained reasons. I know where the original TX200 prototype is and who has it. It wasnt called a TX200 until it was marketed by AA. It was originally a "Ken Turner Special".. I have had the priviledge of shooting this hand made jewel, an absolutely marvelous piecevof work. His design was to make it easy to work on and service ..

 

[thumper]

If it were me, I'd pull the tophat off and put it in the lathe and take most of the face off and see where that got me. Or remove washers if you have them. 

Myself I like to have as much spring as possible rather than more spacing. I think more working coils help prevent bounce, as I mentioned in my first post. 

Now if you are talking just a coil or so, it's not going to make much difference which way you do it. From what I gather you are close already, so it's probably not going to make much difference, especially with the higher stressed springs Vortek uses. 

I'm also a fan of a bigger transfer port in a 97 when going for sub12 power. That would be my first mod is to open it up around 3.4mm. 

The bad thing about the Vortek kits is their springs have to be smaller diameter due to the external guide stuff. This makes the spring harder and more stressed, than a setup with a traditional spring guide and a larger diameter spring. 

 

[Sqwirl57]

Arevyou using a top hat? If so plastic or steel? If not are you using any spacers? If not and just using a spring only then yes the spring needs to be cut. However also keep in mind the spring will take a set after a couple hundred rounds, so your 12.3 may become 11.7 after a few hundred rounds. Lock time will be long, I would recomend a longer shaft piston designed for 12 ft lb. Shortens the stroke and makes lock time shorter.

The original TX200 was designed by Ken Turner but some of his prototypes and idea was taken from him for unexplained reasons. I know where the original TX200 prototype is and who has it. It wasnt called a TX200 until it was marketed by AA. It was originally a "Ken Turner Special".. I have had the priviledge of shooting this hand made jewel, an absolutely marvelous piecevof work. His design was to make it easy to work on and service ..

This is actually with my .177 97K. No spacers at all and I'm using the plastic top hat and steel guide from a Vortek PG4 kit. The spring itself is the standard 12fpe spring Vortek supplies their PG4 kit BUT cut two coils longer per my request. I gave the spring ample time to set. I'm pretty close to 700 pellets through it now and I've settled at 810fps give or take. Chrono string below:

 

[Sqwirl57]

If it were me, I'd pull the tophat off and put it in the lathe and take most of the face off and see where that got me. Or remove washers if you have them. 

Myself I like to have as much spring as possible rather than more spacing. I think more working coils help prevent bounce, as I mentioned in my first post. 

Now if you are talking just a coil or so, it's not going to make much difference which way you do it. From what I gather you are close already, so it's probably not going to make much difference, especially with the higher stressed springs Vortek uses. 

I'm also a fan of a bigger transfer port in a 97 when going for sub12 power. That would be my first mod is to open it up around 3.4mm. 

The bad thing about the Vortek kits is their springs have to be smaller diameter due to the external guide stuff. This makes the spring harder and more stressed, than a setup with a traditional spring guide and a larger diameter spring. 

Thank you for the info man! I'm very close in power already so I'm just going to snip out a 1/4 of a coil and see where that puts me. Appreciate all the words of wisdom and I will look into opening up the transfer port some as well.

 

[MMCM13]

The pyramid blog has a series on the marksman 70, where he goes through the preload, cut the spring and spacers effect, to evaluate the shot cycle, difference in cocking and pellet velocity.

 

[Sqwirl57]

The pyramid blog has a series on the marksman 70, where he goes through the preload, cut the spring and spacers effect, to evaluate the shot cycle, difference in cocking and pellet velocity.

Info like that is exactly what I'm looking for. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction!