springer/scope wandering POI...Solution=laser sight?

[JP806TX]

Was chasing a wandering POI on my TX200 and I narrowed it down to the usual suspects:
1. me
2. rifle
3. scope
4. environment

#4 was easy to eliminate. Shot in a controlled environment indoors (stable temp, no wind and adequate lighting etc). The wandering POI was still there.

While doing the usual Google research on the topic...one suggestion was to use an iron sight to differentiate between a rifle or scope issue.

Unfortunately, the TX200 was not designed with iron sight. I would have to red neck/duct tape a post to the front and hunt for a rear dovetail iron sight. Plus with my aging eye, shooting iron sights was never a favorite activity of mine.

Luckily, Amazon provided a budget alternative. A Laser sight. After forking over $12 and change, I was sent one of these little gem.

Taking off the scope completely and mounting the laser would mean that I would have to track and hold the little red dot on target at 10-15 yards. Not ideal with my aging eyes. So I decided to leave the scope on and mount the laser sight below the scope.

So here's the theory. If the scope is shifting and producing the wandering POI, the laser sight should be able to detect the shift.
Assuming the POI shift only originates from one source. Assuming all screws are snug (checked and triple checked). Benching the gun to eliminate some shooter error.

Testing at a magnification of 50X (10-15 yards) ...the budget "laser" dot is too spread out on paper for accurate tracking ...(might need to spend more money for a "real" green laser?). Magnification of 25X shows some promise.

Adjustment screws on the budget "laser" sight is iffy...A drop of thread locker might be in the future. OR more cash to Amazon for a better product.

Don't know if anyone has used a laser sight coupled with a scope to troubleshoot a wander POI before..limited Google search was a negative.
So stay tuned. This saga is not over. Money and time are the only limiting factors.

 

[spinj]

Using a laser is the only way I confirm all my scopes' tracking abilities and have been doing it for years and think it's the best way to do so. I shared this advice on this forum a long while back and way back at a now-dormant forum called Talonairgun.com. I use a green laser and mount it to the scope tube, then making sure that the projection point is concentric with the barrel; I do this by aiming directly at a mirror and making adjustments until the vertical strand of the scope's reticle lines up with the center of the barrel.

One other big advantage of having the laser is that it makes it so easy to check for parallax without having to put the rifle down and detaching myself from it. Because the laser dot is independent from the reticle it provides the ability to correct parallax errors quickly regardless of movement of the rifle. The laser also confirmed my initial speculation that a moving ocular lens would affect POI, even though it might seem deceptively so when wiggling the adjuster side to side and up and down. Instead, it proved that an ocular lens system only reflects the image framed and projected by the other lens systems forward of it and has nothing to do with planing. Also, I've discovered that even the much cheaper scopes these days can hold their own against their pricier counterparts. Essentially, laser confirmation allowed me to discover some of the scope marketing BS out there and unfounded claims of scope error instead of shooter error.

 

[JP806TX]

Thank you Spinj.
I had a sneaky suspicion that I wasn't the first one to use a laser sight to check a scope for wandering POI on a springer.

Re-sharing your original idea again so that others with springer woes have another tool ...other than iron sight to troubleshoot a wandering POI.

Saw your post on laser back on May 22, 2017? ...Wished I had paid attention back then. It would have saved me some time and money.

 

[2L8]

Looking forward to hearing @jimpoh conclusion and solution. My TX will be thrilled as well.

Patrick

 

[delooper]

I also use the laser, more in the sighting-in process than in "error detection".

Another nice thing you can do with a laser, is sight-in multiple scopes quickly to the same range. The idea is you sight-in your first scope, then point the laser to where you are sighted in. Then quickly mount all your other scopes, and point them to where the laser is pointing.

 

[JP806TX]

I know I started this journey at the bottom tier of the laser sight products.

I've been doing google searches for a better product (tighter beam and stability with elevation and windage adjustments on a double recoiling springer).

I think the next price point is $25-$75, I could be way off.

If anyone has any recommendations on a better green laser sight and it fits my shrinking airgun budget, ... please post and I'll evaluate and submit a request to my finance department.

 

[delooper]

I really like this one.

Adjustable Green Dot Laser Sight Flashlight Designator CR123 20mm Rail Mount | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Adjustable Green Dot Laser Sight Flashlight Designator CR123 20mm Rail Mount at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.ca

You can adjust the (cross-sectional) diameter of the beam. Makes sighting-in a little easier, I find.

If you find any affordable IR laser pointers, I'd love to know. I have a couple pricey ones but would be happy to downgrade.

 

[MRaccurate]

Was chasing a wandering POI on my TX200 and I narrowed it down to the usual suspects:
1. me
2. rifle
3. scope
4. environment

#4 was easy to eliminate. Shot in a controlled environment indoors (stable temp, no wind and adequate lighting etc). The wandering POI was still there.

While doing the usual Google research on the topic...one suggestion was to use an iron sight to differentiate between a rifle or scope issue.

Unfortunately, the TX200 was not designed with iron sight. I would have to red neck/duct tape a post to the front and hunt for a rear dovetail iron sight. Plus with my aging eye, shooting iron sights was never a favorite activity of mine.

Luckily, Amazon provided a budget alternative. A Laser sight. After forking over $12 and change, I was sent one of these little gem.

View attachment 308402

Taking off the scope completely and mounting the laser would mean that I would have to track and hold the little red dot on target at 10-15 yards. Not ideal with my aging eyes. So I decided to leave the scope on and mount the laser sight below the scope.
View attachment 308403

So here's the theory. If the scope is shifting and producing the wandering POI, the laser sight should be able to detect the shift.
Assuming the POI shift only originates from one source. Assuming all screws are snug (checked and triple checked). Benching the gun to eliminate some shooter error.

Testing at a magnification of 50X (10-15 yards) ...the budget "laser" dot is too spread out on paper for accurate tracking ...(might need to spend more money for a "real" green laser?). Magnification of 25X shows some promise.

Adjustment screws on the budget "laser" sight is iffy...A drop of thread locker might be in the future. OR more cash to Amazon for a better product.

Don't know if anyone has used a laser sight coupled with a scope to troubleshoot a wander POI before..limited Google search was a negative.
So stay tuned. This saga is not over. Money and time are the only limiting factors.

I have gone through this process for different reasons. I discovered that the laser sights can be bad because most of them use a spring to hold the laser module inside the sight. I was getting module movement from sudden shocks such as open slide lockup after magazine is empty and big caliber pistols. The adjustment screws are set screws. They are not meant to be used for fine adjustments. I use a second laser to verify that the first laser has not moved. I have bought over 1000 lasers while testing my sight. I have found no good laser assemblies that are worth buying. I'm going to try some Vibra-Tite thread locker to verify that it can be adjusted several times. I have learned that I can use a scope that has been sighted in to sight in a laser and then use the laser to sight in the scope at a different yardage if the laser has been mounted on the horizontal plane af the bore.

 

[JP806TX]

WOW 1000 laser sights!!!
Thank you for giving first hand experience with these laser sights.

I understand that adjustable sights are subject to unintended misalignment (depending on design, material used etc...some are more robust than others).

My limited laser sight research online seems to mirror your experience. Adjustments are made with set screws against a spring tensioner and these laser sights are NOT designed for fine adjustments (and are probably not going to hold zero under springer recoil).

Isn't it strange that with decades? of rifle sight developments and innovations, we are still internally using springs and screws to align our sights? (see my rant on getting rid of the erector tube within a scope and switching to electronically adjusting the cross hair).

So may be going cheap and permanently affixing these laser sights (once sighted in) with epoxy or thread locker may be my only option.

MRaccurate any recommendations on which laser sight for my use? basically, all I need is a fairly stable sight with a nice bright smallish laser dot on the target that I can see with my scope at 10-15 yards (10-55 would be nice)

Been away on vacation. Now I'm back and will re-start my testings soon.

 

[MRaccurate]

WOW 1000 laser sights!!!
Thank you for giving first hand experience with these laser sights.

I understand that adjustable sights are subject to unintended misalignment (depending on design, material used etc...some are more robust than others).

My limited laser sight research online seems to mirror your experience. Adjustments are made with set screws against a spring tensioner and these laser sights are NOT designed for fine adjustments (and are probably not going to hold zero under springer recoil).

Isn't it strange that with decades? of rifle sight developments and innovations, we are still internally using springs and screws to align our sights? (see my rant on getting rid of the erector tube within a scope and switching to electronically adjusting the cross hair).

So may be going cheap and permanently affixing these laser sights (once sighted in) with epoxy or thread locker may be my only option.

MRaccurate any recommendations on which laser sight for my use? basically, all I need is a fairly stable sight with a nice bright smallish laser dot on the target that I can see with my scope at 10-15 yards (10-55 would be nice)

Been away on vacation. Now I'm back and will re-start my testings soon.

My laser buys consist of about 400 full mounts and the rest are modules that need to be installed into my designs with my adjusters. I was buying 100 pcs like the one you pictured, direct from China delivered price of $450-$500. I have had several orders like that. I have ordered smaller quantities, but the shipping and customs cost drive up the price. Many of the low-cost modules were under a buck. I always go for the lowest cost units because of the target market focus I have. (young & new shooters) I have several designs that I will try to get to market. The low-cost red laser unit will be precision accurate from <1 yd to 15 yds with +/- 1/8", but it may not hold its position all of the time. That is capable of hitting flies anywhere along that distance. That is using the laser that you have pictured. The bigger green lasers in my designs can reach beyond 100 yards but the laser dots are about 4" diameter at that distance. I have designed and printed mounts that use laser pointers with good success, but the costs don't work going that direction. I have tried a number of fixes on sights, but not much luck. I have designed mounts without any springs, and they work well, but the 3d print plastic is not what I would use for a production material. I have got drawings at a job shop for aluminum prototypes. I have been working on this project for over 5 years. I am not planning to market myself but am looking for licensing options. I am new to this site, but I like that the shooters are open to new ideas. I have read several of your posts, they look good.

 

[JP806TX]

I really like this one.

Adjustable Green Dot Laser Sight Flashlight Designator CR123 20mm Rail Mount | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Adjustable Green Dot Laser Sight Flashlight Designator CR123 20mm Rail Mount at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.ca

You can adjust the (cross-sectional) diameter of the beam. Makes sighting-in a little easier, I find.

If you find any affordable IR laser pointers, I'd love to know. I have a couple pricey ones but would be happy to downgrade.

Delooper
I got a green laser from Amazon that's very similar to the one you recommended. Nice tight dot at 13 yards (20X magnification...at 40X magnification, it's starting to spread out). Mounted the laser on top of the scope (it was the only area that fit). Then recorded where the laser dot was on paper at various distances (later, I'll plot these on a graph to extrapolate the other distances).

Tested out the theory yesterday. It seemed sound.

Next is to simulate a scope failure by moving either elevation or windage (or both) on the scope and we should see the laser dot (appearing to) move to a different position.

With more testing, I should be able to determine how sensitive this set up is in detecting scope shift.

--
More testing later.

At 14 yards at 20x magnification, you can definitely see the laser dot (appearing to) shift with 2 clicks of the elevation turret. One click...not with my eyesight.
40x magnification laser dot is too spread out. 35X might be an option (haven't tested that yet).
With this method, I should be able to better diagnose a scope problem and request warranty work.

 

[JP806TX]

Delooper
I got a green laser from Amazon that's very similar to the one you recommended. Nice tight dot at 13 yards (20X magnification...at 40X magnification, it's starting to spread out). Mounted the laser on top of the scope (it was the only area that fit). Then recorded where the laser dot was on paper at various distances (later, I'll plot these on a graph to extrapolate the other distances).

Tested out the theory yesterday. It seemed sound.

Next is to simulate a scope failure by moving either elevation or windage (or both) on the scope and we should see the laser dot (appearing to) move to a different position.

With more testing, I should be able to determine how sensitive this set up is in detecting scope shift.

--
More testing later.

At 14 yards at 20x magnification, you can definitely see the laser dot (appearing to) shift with 2 clicks of the elevation turret. One click...not with my eyesight.
40x magnification laser dot is too spread out. 35X might be an option (haven't tested that yet).
With this method, I should be able to better diagnose a scope problem and request warranty work.

Just finished shooting a Field Target match at Diablo.

Shot a 45/62=72.6%.

Average score was around 49.6/62 = 80%

Turns out working on these issues:
1. Target panic,
2. flinching,
3. trigger control
4. Balancing the rifle on the knee so that it is in a neutral position prior to shooting.

Were more beneficial than chasing a wandering POI (for the last three months).

So the green laser and other accessories will be shelved.

I'll be out in my practice range working on these 4 items, plus an additional two; reading the wind and off hand (that Diablo match director sure sets a mean off hand lane...I shot a 1 out of 6 for off hand...bastard)

 

[c_m_shooter]

Just finished shooting a Field Target match at Diablo.

Shot a 45/62=72.6%.

Average score was around 49.6/62 = 80%

Turns out working on these issues:
1. Target panic,
2. flinching,
3. trigger control
4. Balancing the rifle on the knee so that it is in a neutral position prior to shooting.

Were more beneficial than chasing a wandering POI (for the last three months).

So the green laser and other accessories will be shelved.

I'll be out in my practice range working on these 4 items, plus an additional two; reading the wind and off hand (that Diablo match director sure sets a mean off hand lane...I shot a 1 out of 6 for off hand...bastard)

We all try the gimmicks. In the end it all comes down to marksmanship fundamentals.