Springer POI: offhand vs. from rest

This is my first experience with a springer: HW95 .177 tuned by Mycapt65 to a smooth ~14.5 FPE.

Since I can shoot 15 yards inside and I have sighted in dead on at this distance until the weather (in MI) improves allowing outside shooting. For sighting in I tried to use the artillery hold with hand between forearm and front rest. I was able to get consistent groups with this method.

I have been practicing offhand (silhouette hold) and noticed that shots are landing ~ 1' to 1.25" lower than when the gun is shot rested. I still have a way to ge to improve offhand capability, but the pattern of shots landing on average lower is clear.

The only explanations that come to mind are that when rested I am throwing groups consistently high or I am pulling shots consistently low offhand. It is surprising to me that both trends are so consistent. For sure it's not the gun!
 
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TG59, don't feel bad the same exact thing happens to me. Despite the fact that most of my shooting is done off hand I still have a tendency to flinch some times. When I fire I will pull the rifle down. After several warm up shots I usually get it under control.
When you shoot off hand stay focused on the sights and see if you are pulling downward when you fire.
 
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The change in impact might be affected by the firmness of the rest. I have noticed a 1/4" difference between groups when changing between a firm rest and one with more cushion.
If your support hand is closer to the trigger guard the balance point could allow the pistons momentum to result in the muzzle moving downward. Supporting the forearm further out might resolve this.
I had a similar issue with my 98 and Optisan CP 3-12x32 while shooting at 13-14 yards. If parallax is an issue an eye cup to reduce glare can help with the sight picture. I wear a hat sometimes to block out background light. I found keeping this scope at 8x works well for me.
 
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Totally normal. I don't use a traditional rest from a bench. I shoot with my elbows rested on the bench with my forearm steadied by a bag.
In this form my laminate HW30 will shoot single pellet sized round hole 5 shot groups at 10 yards.

Yesterday for poops and giggles I shot the same rifle off-hand standing. The groups were terrible but overall landed 3/8" lower.

Nothing changed but my shooting position. I've known several people use bags, rests, and bipods to zero riffles of all kinds only to have disappointing results afield.

All guns need to be zeroed in the manner they're too be used. Springers including my lowly HW30 take this to the enth degree.

In my case 3/8 low at ten yards works out to 3/4" low at 30 yards if there was no drop..
 
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A lot to think about here!
I did shoot the gun rested toward the front of the fore end, whilst when shooting offhand using silhouette hold (learned from high power rifle) my left hand is way to the rear with thumb on trigger guard and elbow on ribs. The difference between the two holds with some parallax error thrown in may be the issue.

As a next step I will try a different sight in hold as suggested.

I am a fair offhand shot but won't win any matches. I have my share of flyers but have managed enough consistency to notice a pattern between rested an offhand groups.

Learning this rifle's demands sure is fun!
 
This may have nothing to do with your question but using a scope produces a near zero & a far zero. Here is an example of a ChairGun chart that closely matches my HW95 .22 at 17 FPE for your reference.

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Sounds like parallax error, it happens on scoped rifles when you hold them differently. It's easy to overcome, make sure you have the scope centered in your line of sight. Sometimes off a bench you will have a little angle up or down and that's your difference. Lift your head up and down and you will see poi change a little.
Parallax error wouldn't be 1" - 1.5" at 15 yards.

It's the vast difference in holds and positions between bench-rest and offhand.
 
This is my first experience with a springer: HW95 .177 tuned by Mycapt65 to a smooth ~14.5 FPE.

Since I can shoot 15 yards inside and I have sighted in dead on at this distance until the weather (in MI) improves allowing outside shooting. For sighting in I tried to use the artillery hold with hand between forearm and front rest. I was able to get consistent groups with this method.

I have been practicing offhand (silhouette hold) and noticed that shots are landing ~ 1' to 1.25" lower than when the gun is shot rested. I still have a way to ge to improve offhand capability, but the pattern of shots landing on average lower is clear.

The only explanations that come to mind are that when rested I am throwing groups consistently high or I am pulling shots consistently low offhand. It is surprising to me that both trends are so consistent. For sure it's not the gun!
Completely normal and is an expected result. Springers are a lifetime learning experience. Springers will change POI as you change and there are no solutions and you simply have to learn to adapt to it.
Even using a rest for the forearm at the bench you can shoot using just the rest, then cover the rest with a slippery silk cloth and POI will change. Now move the rest closer or further to the trigger guard and POI will once again change.
As an hunter I learned long ago that typical hunting situations require many different holds and each hold will change POI with you. One shot may require simply sitting down and taking the shot, the next may require support by resting the rifle on your forearm while your hand rests on a tree or fence post. Each hold variation will change POI.
To combat this normal situation I learned to do two things. Actually three and will state the third one last. Or was that four........Grin!
Forget all the many recommended ways to hold the air rifle, simply use whatever hold you like and is comfortable for you. The important thing is to hold it the same way all the time. I use a small stick on piece of velcro on the stock as a marker and my thumb is place on that and this gives me a consistent placement for my hand. Even one half an inch change will change POI. The velcro is a means to learn the rifle. As you do learn you can abandon that and use some indicator on the rifle, fore end screw, edge of checkering, whatever just place your hand the same each time. Do the same for your cheek weld. Use whatever means you like, just make sure to never change your cheek weld.
Next sight the rifle in as you intend to shoot it. You will not be carrying that bench around while hunting or simply going for a walk and plinking at pine cones or acorns, tin cans or whatever. I personally due to becoming an old fart and being lazy use a Bipod stand up rest while hunting, the good ones are quick to deploy and provide a consistent portable rest and allow you to concentrate on the shot, not straining to hold the rifle up. This provides a consistent rest for each shot and I sight the rifle of choice in using this.
Also shooting offhand or using a field rest be it a fancy Bipod like I use or simply shooting sticks you must learn to pull the trigger quickly, not jerk it but a simple quick pull. That slow bench rest squeeze does not work well in the field. Learn to come to the target from the bottom and as the crosshair lines up pull the trigger. Timing is the key, a couple days practice and you will be amazed at the accuracy you can achieve.
And lastly each new tin of pellets, same brand, same weight, always shot a group or two and check them, it is not unusual for a new tin of pellets to change POI slightly.
Hope this helps, you will learn for life. I am still learning. Just some of the basics , breathing, both eyes open, etc, etc, you will learn all this as you go. I have some top end fancy PCP rifles, however I find shooting a springer to simply be much more fun. It also makes you a good shooter and keeps you tuned and sharp.
Cheers
Kit
 
I have 7 or 8 different Weihrauch rifles and have two different hold locations based on stock type. My left thumb is placed on the pivot bolts on the HW30s and 50s. The rest of them I place my left thumb on the leftside stock screw.

I very loosely wrap my left hand around the foream. This allows fore and aft slide while reducing lateral and vertical movement.

My right hand is positioned the same on all the rifles. On all but my R1 my right hand barely touches the gun. My bottom three fingers barely touch the gun at their tips. My right thumb goes straight up the stock spine. My pointer pulls the trigger straight back against the thumb. This light touch works well for all but my R1. That rifle wants a full contact with my right hand.

This is what I do to ensure hold consistency. I'm sure each rifle might do a little better held differently but IMO it's better to have predictable 90-95% Performance than bounce around 50 to100% trying to remember or relearn each gun evertime you change rifles.

Even using the same exact hold my POI changes with my position. It will even change with shoulder pressure and clothing thickness. Springers definitely take some practice. Having multiple springers complicates the learning curve. There's something to be said for owning one gun if you really want to get good with one. The only problem with that is it's no fun having only one.
 
As stated,no parallax error,do this,adjust ;Zero to offhand shooting only;15 yards is close shooting.
When you get offhand zero do Not change your zero for bench shooting,change your hold to adjust to the offhand zero.
There shotuld Not be much difference between bench and off hand zero....I think you eye placement my be changing?
Did you adjust the front adjustment to the clearest rectile setting?
Forget all the other stuff it is a technique fault in my humble pie opinion.:sneaky: