N/A Springer Accuracy?

[bowzette]

Where did all this aggression and hate for tin cans come from? What did a tin can ever do to deserve such disrespect? How many of you have been attacked or bitten by a tin can? I think this country needs a Federal Office of the Prevention of Terroristic Acts Against Tin Cans (FOPTAATC). If we don't stand up now for Mr and Mrs Tin, who will be next? Before long it will progress to squirrels, bunnies, crows-err perhaps a bit late for these, but you get my point. No one will be safe.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have a TX200 that shoots very well, unfortunately I don't shoot it enough to keep me in tune. Also, I don't expect the same accuracy out of the TX that I do my 300's. Apples to oranges IMHO.

I am not convinced of that. However the 75s, 300s, 600s etc. are much easier to shoot well than the TXs and 97s.

 

[Sqwirl57]

I am not convinced of that. However the 75s, 300s, 600s etc. are much easier to shoot well than the TXs and 97s.

My TX200, 97K, and FWB Sport have all shot 237s and 238s on the 25m bench cards which is identical to my FWB 150 and 300. My Diana 75 has broken the 240 mark by a point otlr two a couple of times. They're all pretty close.

 

[Ramjet]

High end springers are accurate but take lots of consistent practice for hold sensitivity....

Agreed.

Most high end springers are going to be much more accurate then there users, all depends on the nut behind the trigger.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Agreed.

Most high end springers are going to be much more accurate then there users, all depends on the nut behind the trigger.

View attachment 451618

Nice shooting, looks like a lot of my groups. There is most always one that leaks just a tiny bit. If it was easy, everyone would want to play.

 

[Mycapt65]

One group doesn't make a normal. Especially at 10 meters. I can show you lots of singular short range groups that will make your head spin. The more you stretch it out, difficulty grows exponentially harder. I thought I was a real hero shooting ten yards in my basement until shooting at 25 and 50 yards outdoors humbled me.

Cherry picked groups are absolutely worthless. Show me a whole page of groups then we'll talk. I'm fed up with all the heros out there that skew new peoples expectations by posting a single anomaly. When I was new to airguns I almost gave up airguns because I was comparing my average groups to peoples cherry picked groups.

If you are under 2 MOA with a springer you're doing well. That's under quarter inch center to center at 10 meters, half inch at 25 yards and one inch at 50 yards.

Mathematically the groups should grow in linear relationships to the distance. Example a half inch 25 yard group should be one inch at 50 yards. In reality, air gun groups grow exponentially with distance. The same gun with half inch groups at 25 yards will likely be closer two inches at 50 yards.

 

[JEFFPPC]

One group doesn't make a normal. Especially at 10 meters. I can show you lots of singular short range groups that will make your head spin. The more you stretch it out, difficulty grows exponentially harder. I thought I was a real hero shooting ten yards in my basement until shooting at 25 and 50 yards outdoors humbled me.

Cherry picked groups are absolutely worthless. Show me a whole page of groups then we'll talk. I'm fed up with all the heros out there that skew new peoples expectations by posting a single anomaly. When I was new to airguns I almost gave up airguns because I was comparing my average groups to peoples cherry picked groups.

If you are under 2 MOA with a springer you're doing well. That's under quarter inch center to center at 10 meters, half inch at 25 yards and one inch at 50 yards.

Mathematically the groups should grow in linear relationships to the distance. Example a half inch 25 yard group should be one inch at 50 yards. In reality, air gun groups grow exponentially with distance. The same gun with half inch groups at 25 yards will likely be closer two inches at 50 yards.

Your right. That's why I like shooting my D54 in .22 at 100 yards.

 

[Sawney Bean]

One group doesn't make a normal. Especially at 10 meters. I can show you lots of singular short range groups that will make your head spin. The more you stretch it out, difficulty grows exponentially harder. I thought I was a real hero shooting ten yards in my basement until shooting at 25 and 50 yards outdoors humbled me.

Cherry picked groups are absolutely worthless. Show me a whole page of groups then we'll talk. I'm fed up with all the heros out there that skew new peoples expectations by posting a single anomaly. When I was new to airguns I almost gave up airguns because I was comparing my average groups to peoples cherry picked groups.

If you are under 2 MOA with a springer you're doing well. That's under quarter inch center to center at 10 meters, half inch at 25 yards and one inch at 50 yards.

Mathematically the groups should grow in linear relationships to the distance. Example a half inch 25 yard group should be one inch at 50 yards. In reality, air gun groups grow exponentially with distance. The same gun with half inch groups at 25 yards will likely be closer two inches at 50 yards.

I think accuracy in general is more like a cloud than a group.

Fire 50 shots or more and you’ll generally get a hole in the center where 60% of the shots are concentrated. Surrounding that hole you’ll have lots of shots that are very close but not quite there and those might be 30% of the shots. Then finally there will be those last 10% of random fliers.

The percentages and group size will differ depending on the gun and ammo, but IMO the idea of a shot cloud holds true regardless and the way people tend to classify rifles as 1 MOA or 1/2 MOA is bull$h!t.

 

[Hold_Over]

Target accuracy I imagine to be exactly that. Poking holes in paper with the objective being bullseyes, and group sizing as it relates to competition. Depending on discipline may allow for benches, Bags, scopes etc. Hunting accuracy should be one achieved with man and rifle as the major players in the equation. Accuracy acheived by on target enough for clean dispatch as determined by kill zone under varying circumstance. Estimated range, sitting, kneeling, or standing. Upward/downward angles as you are never fortunate enough to have a rabbit stroll conveniently into your measured zero and then sit there. Maybe if you are 1 of the many with pics I have seen on here with a scoped tripod mounted rifle pointed out the window....but not if you actually go hunting...outside.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

Cherry picked groups are absolutely worthless. Show me a whole page of groups then we'll talk.

True fact! League competition is the total accumulated value of a shoot.

 

[uglymike]

5 shot groups @ 30 yards bench rested indoors, forearm on a bag, butt on my shoulder, Walther LGV Challenger Ultra, AA 8.4gr 4.51mm. Smaller than the hair on FDRs head?

 

[JEFFPPC]

I think accuracy in general is more like a cloud than a group.

Fire 50 shots or more and you’ll generally get a hole in the center where 60% of the shots are concentrated. Surrounding that hole you’ll have lots of shots that are very close but not quite there and those might be 30% of the shots. Then finally there will be those last 10% of random fliers.

The percentages and group size will differ depending on the gun and ammo, but IMO the idea of a shot cloud holds true regardless and the way people tend to classify rifles as 1 MOA or 1/2 MOA is bull$h!t.

Shot cloud? 60 shot group? Been involved in various competition with rifles for over 60 years. Never heard of matches like that. I don't get your point. Do shot some type of competition involving those terms? Do you comptete in any formal competition? Just curious about where those terms come from.

 

[Sqwirl57]

I've never heard it referred to as a "shot cloud" but what he's saying I have seen plenty of times. Plenty of guys go to the club and just shoot one target. 5 and 10 shots groups are nice to look at but if you're dumping 25+ shots at the same bullseye you know exactly what your expectations can be for your setup. I shoot with a guy named Mike who carries a one inch target stamp with him. He stamps a plain piece of paper and thats his target while he's there and thats it. Look at the groups @thomasair posts. They're frequently 25+ shot groups

 

[Sawney Bean]

I've never heard it referred to as a "shot cloud" but what he's saying I have seen plenty of times. Plenty of guys go to the club and just shoot one target. 5 and 10 shots groups are nice to look at but if you're dumping 25+ shots at the same bullseye you know exactly what your expectations can be for your setup. I shoot with a guy named Mike who carries a one inch target stamp with him. He stamps a plain piece of paper and thats his target while he's there and thats it. Look at the groups @thomasair posts. They're frequently 25+ shot groups

That's it exactly. I started to notice this when shooting very large groups, (20+ shots), with BB guns, but I've since observed it with virtually every other gun that I shoot similarly large groups with.

Simply put, the vast majority of the shots will go into a small area. If you're close enough, that will be a single hole. But then there will be a large number of shots that are off slightly and a smaller percentage that are off significantly. I called it a shot cloud for lack of a better term, but it will look like a scatter diagram. There's a statistical term for this and an excellent video that I will try to link to later, but I don't remember either off the top of my head.

Bottom line is that if you've got say X% of your shots going into that single hole then statistically you're going to get Y% of your groups that are MOA, even though you might be occasionally throwing out a 3 MOA flier.

I shot a ragged one hole, 3 shot group at 50 yards last weekend with my Huben K1, maybe .2" CTC, but that was entirely luck. It's not a .4 MOA rifle.

 

[Sawney Bean]

This is the video on sthe statistical significance of 5 shot groups.

There's another good one out there where a guy offers $100 or something similar to anyone on the range who can shoot a 5 shot MOA group on demand and everyone accepts the challenge fails.

 

[bustachip]

HW 97k .22 this is what I expect

There's no image?

 

[Sqwirl57]

This is the video on sthe statistical significance of 5 shot groups.

There's another good one out there where a guy offers $100 or something similar to anyone on the range who can shoot a 5 shot MOA group on demand and everyone accepts the challenge fails.

I have an example that fits your thoughts because I agree with where you're coming from. I've brought up larger group testing and caught some grief for it in the past.

Anyway I shot 4x 5 shot groups with my Crow Mag last weekend. One group was sub MOA, 2 groups were MOA almost on the dot, and the 4th was about 1.4 MOA. A lot of people would say the 1.4 MOA group was a fluke and that I messed up, and honestly maybe it was. The thing is I can't cal a gun an "MOA gun" unless I really can do it every time. Here are the groups.

***Two X's on the page because I reused a used target (red X) and because I tried to turn a 5 shot group into a 10 WELL after the fact. This can be verified by looking at my target in a previous post.

From there I took it a step further because 3 out 4 groups being MOA with a 24ftlb .20 cal is pretty good in my books. I shot 1x 10 shot group and nope. Not MOA 9/10 were 1.25 MOA and 10/10 were closer to 1.6 MOA.

Long story short, I still don't know what this gun really is. Anyone who's shot a Crow Mag before will tell you they aren't exactly easy shooters. It could be I had a couple flyers or maybe I was just tired from cocking a magnum in quick succession. What I do know is that realistically any time I shoot that gun it will put that pellet where I am aiming way more times than not. That matters to me more than group size any day of the week.

 

[Sawney Bean]

It gets even tougher to classify something like a Crow Mag because it can be almost impossible to determine whether the problem is you or the gun. Even if it is shooting 1.4 MOA however that's still a tack driver compared to other guns in it's class.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I think accuracy in general is more like a cloud than a group.

I think your full of baloney.

 

[beerthief]

One group doesn't make a normal. Especially at 10 meters. I can show you lots of singular short range groups that will make your head spin. The more you stretch it out, difficulty grows exponentially harder. I thought I was a real hero shooting ten yards in my basement until shooting at 25 and 50 yards outdoors humbled me.

Cherry picked groups are absolutely worthless. Show me a whole page of groups then we'll talk. I'm fed up with all the heros out there that skew new peoples expectations by posting a single anomaly. When I was new to airguns I almost gave up airguns because I was comparing my average groups to peoples cherry picked groups.

If you are under 2 MOA with a springer you're doing well. That's under quarter inch center to center at 10 meters, half inch at 25 yards and one inch at 50 yards.

Mathematically the groups should grow in linear relationships to the distance. Example a half inch 25 yard group should be one inch at 50 yards. In reality, air gun groups grow exponentially with distance. The same gun with half inch groups at 25 yards will likely be closer two inches at 50 yards.

how about 1/2 page , was goofing around shooting 3 shot groups on the 30 yard challenge