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Split: BC discussion Pellets

Mod Edit. Topic was split off from Help ... Pellet Drop topic in General forum


Between those two pellets the difference in the amount of drop is DSUIA/Discrepancies Swallowed Up In Actuality. By that I mean your gun won't group 1/2" at 100Y, the different wind vectors will affect the vertical a 1/4", pellets blow like crazy in the wind at 100Y by 3/4" per mile an hour in a full value wind, and ballistic calculators are not perfect they can often be slightly off for various reasons.

Having shot 50 grainers and 34's there is a fair amount of difference in thwack though. Disregarding cost of ammo, and keeping mind 30 cal uses more air at the same velocity/890 fps, I'd go 30 cal for hunting.
 
Actually, the .25 Exact Heavy has a markedly better BC than either .30 pellet. That data is directly from JSB. Also backed up by my testing. The .25 Exact Heavy comes out on top around 0.060, the .30 JSB 44.75 about 0.042 and the .30 JSB 50.1 about 0.046. 
So if you shoot all 3 pellets at the same speed with a 50 yard zero, the .25 will drop less. Punch the numbers in Strelok or do a theory to practice, I’ve done both with all three pellets. 
Both @steve123 and @arzrover make valid points to take into consideration.

91A23B1E-E62E-4639-BF05-CBF32C65A24A.1617549090.jpeg

 
Actually, the .25 Exact Heavy has a markedly better BC than either .30 pellet. That data is directly from JSB. Also backed up by my testing. The .25 Exact Heavy comes out on top around 0.060, the .30 JSB 44.75 about 0.042 and the .30 JSB 50.1 about 0.046. 
So if you shoot all 3 pellets at the same speed with a 50 yard zero, the .25 will drop less. Punch the numbers in Strelok or do a theory to practice, I’ve done both with all three pellets. 
Both @steve123 and @arzrover make valid points to take into consideration.


With the caveat that BC isn't set in stone and varies from gun to gun and when conditions change.......

Arzrover and I discussed this a while back when JSB released that chart, but crazy thing to point out is that NONE of the .30 pellets have a better BC than the Heavy .20. Think about that one for a minute. The other little eye opener here is that the .22 MRD is in the top couple of all BCs. 

I've been wanting to do a long range, head to head comparison of the Heavy .20 to the .22 MRD for a while now, just haven't had time yet. 

For my purposes (long range accuracy) and ideas of air efficiency and price/pellet mentality, this data even further concreted that I don't have much interest in anything .30, and probably won't in the future (barring any change in pellet design or future improvements). 
 
With the caveat that BC isn't set in stone and varies from gun to gun and when conditions change.......

Arzrover and I discussed this a while back when JSB released that chart, but crazy thing to point out is that NONE of the .30 pellets have a better BC than the Heavy .20. Think about that one for a minute. The other little eye opener here is that the .22 MRD is in the top couple of all BCs.

True, but although the BC changes with the weather (temp, pressure), type of barrel, and velocity, it doesn't vary by orders of magnitude. An RDM might be 0.050 one time and 0.053 the next, and then with a different barrel it might be 0.048. But generally within 10% or so at normal airgun velocities. One thing powder burner guys have a very hard time understanding is that with most diabolo shaped pellets the BC will go DOWN when over a certain speed (generally when over 950 FPS, but some like the RDM can take higher speeds without detriment). This means that if you shoot the same pellet at 100 yards in a 10 MPH crosswind, one at 1050 FPS and the other at 900 FPS, the faster one will drift MORE than the slower one... WHOA, mind is just blown! Don't believe me? Put the numbers in your Strelok and see...

Now to the question of the day. Its been shown that the .22 RDMs and the .25 Exact Heavy have about the best BC of current mass production pellets, by as much as 25 to 50% compared to the .30 JSB Exact. So why do most 100 yard Benchrest shooters shoot the .30 JSB Exact 44.75 pellets in competition?
 
@brink - And most of them don't win! How long has it been since a 30 cal has won at 100 yard benchrest? 

Two of the last three big 100 yard events were won with a .30 Impact... RMAC 2019 and PAC 2019. EBR 2019 was won with .22 RD Monsters. At EBR 2019 winner was .22 RDM, but 2 through 5 were .30 Exact 44.75. I shot .30 Exact 44.75 at EBR 2019, but will shoot RDM this year. Might even shoot .25 Exact Heavy if I can bond with my Delta Wolf and it outperforms my .22 Red Wolf HP.
 
@centercut, the ultimate decision to break this into a new thread is outside my purview.......but I'm thinking we might need a new topic.

Ready for some theoretical and philosophical ramblings?

I've often thought (and stated online a few times) that the way we airgunners view and use BC is erroneously black and white. And I'm perhaps as much or more guilty than the rest of us. The general mindset seems to indicate that we view BC as much more than it really is. I've used and seen it used as a metric to convey % of retained energy, resistance to horizontal deflection (crosswind), as well as trajectory (how far the pellet does or doesn't "drop" at a given distance). And yeah, the BC is really about the best parameter that we have for summarizing all the influences a projectile is under as it gets from the end of our barrel to where it is going (external ballistics).

BUT, I've personally seen examples where the BC very obviously doesn't fully or even accurately describe what is going on with a pellet. Situations where measured BCs don't perform as well in the wind as a lower measured BC, and vice versa. Like the one you're implying: how/why does the .30 have a seemingly better track record at the more recent large airgun benchrest competitions, despite (or maybe in spite of) the low BCs people and companies seem to measure with it? And I say "more recent" but I believe Tim McMurray of MAC1 Airguns won one of the early EBRs (2013 maybe) with a .30 and a veritable monster of a USFT with an air bottle that looked like a toilet tank float.

So, I'm at work today and have been doing some online digging, with the intent of finding something that helps answer the question: "why does the BC not always seem to be as useful/accurate as we airgunners hope (and sometimes treat as such) it is?"

The easy stuff is that BC is dependent on weight, diameter, and form factor. The form factor is where all the GA vs G1 stuff comes into play. And those are really just drag profiles that are somewhat of a best guess. In other words, the BC is the sectional density divided by its form factor. And SD is just weight and caliber. So, our beloved ballistic coefficient is nothing more than how a particular caliber/weight projectile compares to the how the reference "best guess" form factor projectile would. If those form factors are a little off..........It's actually surprising to see how little is changed in ballistics apps by using GA or G1 for pellet or slug.

A conversation over on Gateway to Airguns and a typically useful Bob Stern comment about the coefficient of drag (Cd) lead me to fluid dynamics, and yes that applies to liquids AND gases. This little blurb from wikipedias section on external ballistics made me realize there are still a lot of unknowns in the field and how it applies to projectiles. 

"Drag resistance:

Mathematical models, such as computational fluid dynamics, are used for calculating the effects of drag or air resistance; they are quite complex and not yet completely reliable, but research is ongoing.[7] The most reliable method, therefore, of establishing the necessary projectile aerodynamic properties to properly describe flight trajectories is by empirical measurement."

(In other words, best actually measured and if you're not measuring, realize that it's all theoretical)

So a long dive into the rabbit hole of fluid dynamics and I came across a new-to-me term that I think has some relevance: Reynolds number. 

At its most simple the Reynolds number is the ratio of the inertial force to the viscous force and how that affects a projectile. The viscous force in our airgun shooting being the medium through which the pellet passe (the air) and the inertial force being how much inertia that traveling projectile is carrying. But it also takes into account the point at which laminar flow around the projectile becomes turbulent flow. At any given competition, hunting site, etc, the atmospheric conditions (air) that we're shooting through is pretty much what it is, no changing it. But the "Inertial force" can be tweaked through equipment choice. My simple mind thinks of heavy stuff going fast carrying more inertia. But that speed can only go so high before we start getting into the whole laminar versus turbulent air thing. There's also a thought that something with a bigger cross section creates more potentially destabilizing turbulence. 

Lots of other internet sleuthing but here are a couple links that were informative in regards to the Reynolds number. 

http://waterocket.explorer.free.fr/aerodynamics.htm

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/socdrag.html

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/BGH/reynolds.html

This Reynolds number discussion even considers roughness of the projectile (how sharp are the rifling marks?). It takes into account the well-known phenomenon amongst us of accuracy falling to pieces above a certain fps. The Reynolds number doesn't (and won't) replace the BC but it was very interesting to me and I just wanted to share what I came across. 


 
OK, lets move this to a new topic under pellets and projectiles... Starting about 4 or 5 posts above. PS., although I am very familiar with the BC and what it means I always back up what I'm saying with actual experience.... I've done that with the .30, (both), the .25 Exact Heavy, the .22 RD Monster and the .22 JSB Exact Heavy 18.1. I've also seen where the BC contradicts what is calculated. Case in point, I was shooting the .177 JSB Exact Heavy 10.3 when I decided to shoot FT. JSB shows 0.029 for 10.34 Heavy and 0.030 for RD Monster. Yet shooting side by side in the same conditions at 50 yards the RDM drifted about HALF of the 10.34 Exact Heavy...

Mike
 
...PS., although I am very familiar with the BC and what it means I always back up what I'm saying with actual experience.... I've done that with the .30, (both), the .25 Exact Heavy, the .22 RD Monster and the .22 JSB Exact Heavy 18.1. I've also seen where the BC contradicts what is calculated. Case in point, I was shooting the .177 JSB Exact Heavy 10.3 when I decided to shoot FT. JSB shows 0.029 for 10.34 Heavy and 0.030 for RD Monster. Yet shooting side by side in the same conditions at 50 yards the RDM drifted about HALF of the 10.34 Exact Heavy...

Mike

I know you know what you're talking about Mike, I wasn't trying to say anything contrary to that. My intent here is to get a discussion going as to WHY these BC vs reality contradictions exist. 

Why has the .30 won more benchrest comps than the BC implies that it should have?

Why does the RD monster in .177 shoot with HALF as much wind deflection as the 10.34gr, with nearly identical BCs (from your sub 20fpe FT rig)?

Why does the polygonal .177 barrel in my sub 20fpe rig also only need HALF as much wind hold off as ANY other sub 20fpe gun that I've shot or any gun that my competitors are shooting at FT matches (based on asking them how much they're holding off)?

And the most recent what the hell that I've come across, why do the .22 cal 20.2 gr NSAs, with a stated BC of 0.07, need twice as much hold off @ 100 yards as the 25.4gr Monster RDs from my Extreme FT rig? 

Makes no sense. 
 
The 20.2 gr slugs have such a short wheelbase, or bearing surface, that it’s highly unlikely that they will exit any barrel without significant yaw. Since they are apparently dynamically stable....they will eventually fly right, but the wind damage has been done by then. Getting them into the bore as straight as possible gives them the best start...but that may be impossible for some bolts.

The same thing can go wrong with pellets in guns with a poorly made leade for the pellet used. The straightest start possible is the most important thing for a pellet or slug. Even a little compromise will destroy the chances of getting the most accuracy and the least wind drift.

Mike 
 
Further details on the 20.2 NSA vs 25.4gr MRDs....

Screenshot_20210405-203758.1617680512.png


103 yards. NSAs @ around 915fps and MRDs at around 850. 

Red dot was average hold off for the NSAs and green dot was average hold off for MRDs. 

Repeatable too, going back and forth shooting full cards of centercuts EBR practice target. All the cards were about the same score too (215ish so nothing incredible) , so neither projectile was shooting more accurately than the other, the slug just needed more hold off. 

Single fed and care taken to close the bolt with gun level in attempts to get them chambered nice and square. 

Just another example of how BCs don't seem to tell the whole story. 0.07 versus around 0.05, and the better BC was getting pushed more, backwards from the logically expected effect. 

Interesting concept you posed though: that things like unsquare entry of the pellet into bore for whatever reason, even the profile of the leade, can induce yaw and allow the wind to grab it more, even if it eventually flies somewhat straight. 
 
I can see how f the pellet leaves the barrel cocked, that a yaw or wobble would/could be introduced. I’m curious (inquiring minds want to know) how if it’s slightly cocked going into the leade, how it can stay cocked as it travels gown the barrel and choke, then out the crown? I’m not denying that it can/could happen, it just doesn’t pass the common sense test with me. Common sense would tell you that it will auto straighten as it goes down the rifling and choke. But common sense would also tell you that faster pellets are affected less by the wind and that’s not true for subsonic pellets, so I’m curious...
 
I remember losing a shootoff for 1st place at a FT match one year about 15 years ago. IIRC we were shooting at a 1/2" KZ at 30Y and it was fairly windy, around 6-8 mph, but we both did our best to wait for a lull. We each hit it a few times and tied so we went at it again a little farther back a few yards and Deb won. The target was freshly painted so we could see our misses. I asked her where she aimed and she said the edge of the KZ and I said hmmm that's odd, I was aiming a half inch out and I still split the pellet on the oft edge. We both used 10.3's at approx the same velocity. That was my first clue that some barrels apparently don't give as much wind drift as others. 

I had a 12 fpe rifle that put out pellets that blew like crazy in the wind, there was no way I would ever be able to win an FT match with that one. Yet I see how well other shooters do with 12 fpe rifles???!!! There must be something to it other than skills and practice??

Anecdotal examples yes, but I think there's something to it.

EDIT, in the firearms world if someone won a long range match with a 223 Remington against others with 6.5's with much higher BC's and velocities it'd be almost miraculous. So that's why it's such an intriguing mystery to me with 12 fpe rifles going up against 20 fpe rifles and winning.


 
Over the years I have machined around 500 barrels I suspect. Most of my barrels are custom dimensioned. I used to sell some of the custom blanks to shooters without machining. The majority of these barrels were duds according to the guys that bought them. Some of them came up with the idea that I would get in a large batch of barrels and had some magic way of determining which ones were good and bad. I would then keep the good ones for myself and sell off the duds. Nobody ever came up with an explanation of how a guy could tell if an un machined barrel was good or bad....but nonetheless, the idea is still commonly heard today. Every once in a while one of these guys would send the dud barrel back to me and I would chop of their leade and crown and redo the machining to use the barrel on my personal guns. Never found one to be a dud, yet. Strange, no?

Mike
 
No question that the leade and crown are of utmost importance. 

There are so many variables at play concerning this game of accuracy. 

Why is the .30 - 44.75gr better than a .30 - 50.15gr although the 50.15 has a better BC? Why is the .22 - 25.39gr redesign better than the ,25 - 33.95gr.............

BC is not king. The final results are. Why does it happen? We absolutely know of some variables that we can control which will effect this end result. Others we do not. 

I'm gonna keep it simple for me for now. I'm shooting the .22 - 25.39gr when grabbing pellets for precision. Until something else knocks it from being my #1. 

Please, carry on this interesting topic with further info and ideas as I find it very intriguing. 
 
Good point Derrick. And I think the STX liners have about the same effect as the poly barrels when it comes to BC. 
Good point with the .22 RDMs compared to the .25 Heavy. BCs are close enough that the one with the best precision is the choice. I’m trying to decide now, .22 RDMs with Bleu or .25 Heavy with Delta Wolf. More testing needed.