Slugs vs Pellets and Airgun Power vs The Law

[Sqwirl57]

You know me as a Computer Scientist. I am also a Korean Linguist (Defense Language Institute 1974) an All Source Intelligence Analyst and a Cryptanalyst (code breaker, NSA 1976). I am also a Network Engineer specializing in wireless networks (helped to write the first WISPA CALEA standard). I've worked special operations on 4 continents.

My thought process is very well informed WRT, intelligence the collection thereof and supporting LEAs in that process.

I will do me. You feel free to imagine you can keep secrets from the government if that makes you happy. I am not subject to that delusion.

See here we go. I think I finally understand the point that I thought I was making that I thought you were missing. I'm not trying to hide it from the government. I'm trying to keep the info out of the neighborhood tweakers head. We're talking about two different things.

 

[OldSpook]

See here we go. I think I finally understand the point that I thought I was making that I thought you were missing. I'm not trying to hide it from the government. I'm trying to keep the info out of the neighborhood tweakers head. We're talking about two different things.

Oh, don't worry, the tweaker is the least of your worries... he isn't going to figure out AGs ever. No think along the lines of organized criminals something like ANTIFA and don't think for second they aren't already visitors here along with the LEAs because we (meaning a small group of other members) have already noticed them too.

Look this is the bottom line here. You can't hide this and you can't minimize it by telling otherwise good folks to stop talking. We are literally here to talk about these things.

The OP offered an idea. People shot it down because it involved talking about these things. If I was a malicious LEO or INTEL type I'd shoot him and his idea down too because I wouldn't want the AG community talking about organizing and taking steps to protect their rights.

I'd be doing exactly what you are advocating... I'd be you not me.

You are never going to understand my point because you've never studied these sorts of problems professionally. I have. You can't hide technical progress from bad people. Neither can you protect yourself from legislators and LEOs by keeping them ignorant. The LAST thing you want is an ignorant LEO going to an IGNORANT congressman to get a law written.

Think about that a bit and I really feel like it will make sense to you.

 

[Nomadic Pirate 66]

This is all really too much.
Don’t call slugs “slugs”, don’t ever for God’s sake mention a moderator, don’t discuss high powered air guns in polite company and if you are a member of the Secret Society of Air Gunners don’t you dare, ever never, ever enlighten a person ignorant of our hobby. What’s next? All of our “projectiles” need to be shipped in a plain brown wrapper like a sex toy?
I wholly agree with keeping people ignorant about what we do especially those who were are not allowed to name. Everybody knows that the best laws and regulations come from people who don’t know anything about what they are dealing with.
So we will cower before an enemy we are not allowed to name (absolutely absurd), crawl under a rock and enjoy our hobby in the shadows like all the rest of the deviants?
Do you think you are hiding anything? Every bit of information you want to cover up is on the internet. Did Y’all forget about your beloved YouTube? What about the online magazines? OH CRAP!!! All the folks that make all the stuff we buy and enjoy have websites!!!! And the ignorant naves brag about the power of their air guns, how quiet their little tube thingy makes your air gun and how accurate their projectiles are and this air gun is semi-automatic. Then the very worst offenders, FORUMS, just loaded with people who actually use these things, discuss them and share information about them, how to modify them and, and……….. IT IS ALL IN PUBLIC DOMAIN!
OMG!!!! You, you, you and yes you trying to hide in the corner are all guilty of hastening the demise of our beloved hobby. Ignorant scoundrels that you all are, participating on forums, thousands and thousands of us, post after post after post each one hurtling us toward the inevitable end of life as we know it!!!! Grab your tinfoil hats and head for the hills!!!! FOR ”THEY” are after us.

BINGO,.....just stop cowering and go for it.

 

[M0ist0ne]

*queue up grand entrance of FX pellugs!!*

 

[Sqwirl57]

Oh, don't worry, the tweaker is the least of your worries... he isn't going to figure out AGs ever. No think along the lines of organized criminals something like ANTIFA and don't think for second they aren't already visitors here along with the LEAs because we (meaning a small group of other members) have already noticed them too.

Look this is the bottom line here. You can't hide this and you can't minimize it by telling otherwise good folks to stop talking. We are literally here to talk about these things.

The OP offered an idea. People shot it down because it involved talking about these things. If I was a malicious LEO or INTEL type I'd shoot him and his idea down too because I wouldn't want the AG community talking about organizing and taking steps to protect their rights.

I'd be doing exactly what you are advocating... I'd be you not me.

You are never going to understand my point because you've never studied these sorts of problems professionally. I have. You can't hide technical progress from bad people. You can't protect yourself from legislators and LEOs by keeping them ignorant. The LAST thing you want is an ignorant LEO going to an IGNORANT congressman to get a law written.

Think about that a bit and I really feel like it will make sense to you.

I'm not talking about hiding anything. It can't be done. You can slow things though which is all I'm personally trying to do. Delay the inevitable. Unfortunately I dont shoot with any politicians so I am currently unable to educate them. Based on the vast amounts of knowledge that is readily available on the powder aspect of our hobby though and some of the backwards things these people say, I doubt half of them can be taught anyway. Or for reasons they'd rather not say, don't want to be educated on.

I just want to be left alone and buy my springers as cheap and easily as possible for as long as possible.

 

[OldSpook]

I'm not talking about hiding anything. It can't be done. You can slow things though which is all I'm personally trying to do. Delay the inevitable. Unfortunately I dont shoot with any politicians so I am currently unable to educate them. Based on the vast amounts of knowledge that is readily available on the powder aspect of our hobby though and some of the backwards things these people say, I doubt half of them can be taught anyway. Or for reasons they'd rather not say, don't want to be educated on.

I just want to be left alone and buy my springers as cheap and easily as possible for as long as possible.

Pretty solid agreement there. Sleep well friend and God Bless you and yours.

 

[Nomadic Pirate 66]

Oh, don't worry, the tweaker is the least of your worries... he isn't going to figure out AGs ever. No think along the lines of organized criminals something like ANTIFA and don't think for second they aren't already visitors here along with the LEAs because we (meaning a small group of other members) have already noticed them too.

Look this is the bottom line here. You can't hide this and you can't minimize it by telling otherwise good folks to stop talking. We are literally here to talk about these things.

The OP offered an idea. People shot it down because it involved talking about these things. If I was a malicious LEO or INTEL type I'd shoot him and his idea down too because I wouldn't want the AG community talking about organizing and taking steps to protect their rights.

I'd be doing exactly what you are advocating... I'd be you not me.

You are never going to understand my point because you've never studied these sorts of problems professionally. I have. You can't hide technical progress from bad people. Neither can you protect yourself from legislators and LEOs by keeping them ignorant. The LAST thing you want is an ignorant LEO going to an IGNORANT congressman to get a law written.

Think about that a bit and I really feel like it will make sense to you.

Oh, don't worry, the tweaker is the least of your worries... he isn't going to figure out AGs ever. No think along the lines of organized criminals something like ANTIFA and don't think for second they aren't already visitors here along with the LEAs because we (meaning a small group of other members) have already noticed them too.

Ho boy, here come the big cowboy tinfoil hats

 

[M0ist0ne]

Ho boy, here come the big cowboy tinfoil hats

*Looks in mirror at his tinfoil hat*

 

[Nomadic Pirate 66]

*Looks in mirror at his tinfoil hat*

life must be true hell when you just paranoid and afraid of everything.

 

[Trucker3573]

The only thing you can do is pay attention to your local and state level legislation for any new legislation introduced that may contain such restrictions. Then write and call your local representatives like crazy. That is where this will happen if it does. You will never see airguns attacked on a large national scale because it will never be worth the money and effort. Airguns will never generate votes or political gains. That is all the attacks on PBs are about. It isn’t about safety or caring about people. It’s about votes and selfish political gains. I know political posts are against the rules but that up there ^^^ is the utter truth.

 

[c801tfd]

I enjoy our hobby/sport for what it is, not what it has the potential to become. The vast majority of air rifles I shoot are vintage springers and pumpers and they are great for what they were designed to do, punch paper, small game hunting and pesting. The only impacts I have are limitations on where these can be shot within the City I reside within, they can’t because young vandals forced elected officials to prohibit thier use within the city limits. Now I shoot outside the city or at my parents land in another county. So yes when one person cannot resist doing something stupid it has a negative impact for everyone.

I also enjoy watching what is possible with PCP rifles and have a great respect for the users of this class of air rifle. They show what is possible and what technology has done to further the sport. The problem lies largely in the capabilities of this class of air rifles, unfortunately when not if someone decides to do something they know better than to do we will all suffer the same fate, just as has happened in my community and others where this has happened.

No one cared about us because BB and Pellet Airguns are defined as toys and our targets were small and so no attention was given until a few careless episodes caused by individuals who did not care or were not educated on appropriateness of use.

Sadly the target is getting bigger and bigger each time technology improves the efficiency of ammo, power level, distances and size of game intended to be taken (dear, elk, bear etc…) oh and if they can do that then we also know what the capabilities afford those that have other ideas for use, and this is where we will all suffer because the target is getting bigger for both sides with each advancement in our hobby/sport.

As for me I will be disappointed when, not if our hobby/sport suffers further state or local restrictions or becomes regulated at the national level. My only hope is that we will be able to salvage things if it does become regulated by turning back the clock to allow for low power pumpers, springers and PCP‘s although a low power PCP restriction may destroy that class of air rifles.

To sum it up if we cannot regulate ourselves then others will do it for us, let’s keep the target small.

 

[_CTAIRGUNNER_]

Well, that was certainly well done. Do you think it will work?
Just one other question, do the rest of us get to talk about night vision and slugs, etc on YouTube or is that space reserved for you because you know exactly what we should and should not be saying? You better have a word with this guy too:

Its one thing to discuss the performance of these tools , its ANOTHER thing to discuss them in relation to the govt and the abcdeq associations. Thats the point.

 

[OldSpook]

I enjoy our hobby/sport for what it is, not what it has the potential to become. The vast majority of air rifles I shoot are vintage springers and pumpers and they are great for what they were designed to do, punch paper, small game hunting and pesting. The only impacts I have are limitations on where these can be shot within the City I reside within, they can’t because young vandals forced elected officials to prohibit thier use within the city limits. Now I shoot outside the city or at my parents land in another county. So yes when one person cannot resist doing something stupid it has a negative impact for everyone.

I also enjoy watching what is possible with PCP rifles and have a great respect for the users of this class of air rifle. They show what is possible and what technology has done to further the sport. The problem lies largely in the capabilities of this class of air rifles, unfortunately when not if someone decides to do something they know better than to do we will all suffer the same fate, just as has happened in my community and others where this has happened.

No one cared about us because BB and Pellet Airguns are defined as toys and our targets were small and so no attention was given until a few careless episodes caused by individuals who did not care or were not educated on appropriateness of use.

Sadly the target is getting bigger and bigger each time technology improves the efficiency of ammo, power level, distances and size of game intended to be taken (dear, elk, bear etc…) oh and if they can do that then we also know what the capabilities afford those that have other ideas for use, and this is where we will all suffer because the target is getting bigger for both sides with each advancement in our hobby/sport.

As for me I will be disappointed when, not if our hobby/sport suffers further state or local restrictions or becomes regulated at the national level. My only hope is that we will be able to salvage things if it does become regulated by turning back the clock to allow for low power pumpers, springers and PCP‘s although a low power PCP restriction may destroy that class of air rifles.

To sum it up if we cannot regulate ourselves then others will do it for us, let’s keep the target small.

Now you know better than to confuse the ostrichs with common sense. Shame on you.

 

[Bigragu]

This fffnn dumb, repetitious topic is going onto 4 pages, and the OP, XINDARIS, hasn’t even piped back in. When are people going to learn to not get sucked into threads like this started by chumps giggling behind the keyboard as this goes into 4 pages??!!

 

[OldSpook]

This fffnn dumb, repetitious topic is going onto 4 pages, and the OP, XINDARIS, hasn’t even piped back in. When are people going to learn to not get sucked into threads like this started by chumps giggling behind the keyboard as this goes into 4 pages??!!

Hey, If you had asked a legit question and gotten the immediate feedback that the OP got, would YOU then continue the thread?

 

[450BM]

How about solids

That sounds dangerous…

 

[M0ist0ne]

This fffnn dumb, repetitious topic is going onto 4 pages, and the OP, XINDARIS, hasn’t even piped back in. When are people going to learn to not get sucked into threads like this started by chumps giggling behind the keyboard as this goes into 4 pages??!!

But then what am I supposed to do with my thumbs if they're not participating in this troll thread???? (Yup, leaving myself wide open with this comment)

 

[ChRiSiS]

Sigh…

I know I shouldn’t comment. But I can’t help myself.

I really don’t understand the “don’t talk about it so THEY won’t find out” mindset. This is 2022. THEY already know. THEY mostly don’t care because they have bigger fish to fry. Trust me, if WE know, THEY know!

That’s the issue for me, not the actual topic, but rather the whole concept of ”let’s keep quiet so it stays a secret”.
And this is written on an open forum…

 

[450BM]

Never underestimate the desires or abilities of the government to regulate something. Talking about these things should bring us together to slow them down or prevent more regulation. You know the old saying, united we stand, divided we fall.

 

[M0ist0ne]

Sigh…

I know I shouldn’t comment. But I can’t help myself.

I really don’t understand the “don’t talk about it so THEY won’t find out” mindset. This is 2022. THEY already know. THEY mostly don’t care because they have bigger fish to fry. Trust me, if WE know, THEY know!

That’s the issue for me, not the actual topic, but rather the whole concept of ”let’s keep quiet so it stays a secret”.
And this is written on an open forum…

Hahaha, yup.

The problem is THEY are running out of things to regulate in the PB world once a few more 'rules' get published...alphabet soup sitting idle in the can is not a good thing