Slugs V pellets.

A question floating around in my otherwise empty head.

At what point (of speed) does a regular diabolo pellet buck the wind better than a Slug?.

I shall try and explain my question

we know because the BC of a slug is better the slug is better in the wind , but if your gun shoots your favorite pellet at say 950fps but slugs of the same weight shoot out of it at , say 850fps , would the pellet at 950fps buck the wind better.






 
I would guess that the answer would vary from combination of barrel and slug across the board. I don't shoot slugs because it seems there is no advantage at the relatively short distances (inside 50 yards almost entirely) that I shoot airguns. At longer ranges and some given velocity (spin and stability related?) it seems the slugs begin to show an advantage. Not much of a specifc point of view but I don't know that a specific is possible.
 
Faster speed doesn’t directly equate to wind bucking ability. BC does. A common misconception even among experienced shooters is that the faster the projectile goes, the less affected by wind it will be.

There are many misconceptions about wind drift, the biggest being that “time to target” is the key. That is NOT the case. The wind drift is proportional to the DIFFERENCE in the actual time of flight, compared to what it would be in a vacuum. This is called the “lag time”.

This is a difficult thing to wrap your brain around, and even harder to explain without involved mathematics, so I will leave to you Google it if you don’t believe me. However, it is a fact that we have to deal with when considering the external ballistics of diabolo pellets.

Since the lag time is the key, then how fast the pellet slows down (mostly governed by the BC) is the key.

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-external-ballistics-of-diabolo-pellets/

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-external-ballistics-of-slugs-in-airguns/

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/wind-drift-for-airguns-its-important-where-the-wind-is/


https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/vertical-deflection-for-pellets-in-crosswind/
 
A question floating around in may otherwise empty head.

At what point (of speed) does a regular diabolo pellet buck the wind better than a Slug?.

I shall try and explain my question

we know because the BC of a slug is better the slug is better in the wind , but if your gun shoots your favorite pellet at say 950fps but slugs of the same weight shoot out of it at , say 850fps , would the pellet at 950fps buck the wind better.


Looks like CenterCut got in there with a pretty good answer before I got this written. I'll just leave this anyway. He provided good links, too.

Well you know that the BC of a given projectile changes with velocity, temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure. Even so you can ignore that for the purposes of this discussion and just assume all things are held constant and only two projectiles are being considered.

First we can not assume that the BC of a slug is better than that of a pellet "in the wind". What you are talking about there is wind drift rather than BC. Wind drift is principally a function of time of flight and the density of the projectile. A heavy (dense) projectile (lead) which has the same time of flight as a light (less dense) projectile (a feather) having the same cross section presented to the wind will be moved less by the wind. Wind drift then is mostly about how long it takes the projectile to get to the target because most projectiles are fairly heavy and dense.

That brings us to the suggestion that a slug will necessarily be launched at a lower velocity than a pellet. This is true only if the slug has a larger surface area in contact with the barrel and/or weighs more than the pellet. It is likely that a slug with more surface area in contact with the bore and which is heavier than the pellet will be launched with a higher muzzle energy than the pellet given the same "push" to a point. Eventually the system will be overwhelmed by the weight and/or barrel friction of the slug and you will get lower muzzle energies. This can happen quicker than you expect because energy is a function of the square of the muzzle velocity.

ASIDE: Does the above suggest that slugs with "grease groves" may be more efficient in air rifle barrels? There is a good question.

Now to answer your question. A pellet never has a better BC than a spitzer shaped slug. Almost always the projectile which has the longest time of flight to the target will be the one most displaced by wind drift. You may actually even see some comparisons where a slug has more wind drift than a pellet at close ranges and less wind drift than the pellet at longer ranges simply because the muzzle velocity of the slug is slow enough (relative to the pellet) for the pellet to have a lower time of flight at the close ranges.

So the take away from this is pellets are usually a better choice for shorter ranges and slugs are usually a better choice for extended ranges. There will be some middle ranges where either will be a good choice.

I think of it like this. Pellets are usually preferable where you want to limit your range for safety reasons. For example, shooting slugs in town is probably a bad idea most of the time, as would be really heavy pellets with high BCs. Slugs are usually preferable where you want to extend your range to longer targets or to deliver more energy on larger game.

Hope that helps.
 
Thank you for your replies folks, much appreciated.

Bandg " I don't know that a specific is possible." agreed .

Centercut, I had read (if not fully understood) some of the Hard Air articles on the subject, by posting on the forum I was hoping to tease out AGN members thinking on it, (and learn from them).

Oldspook, " Almost always the projectile which has the longest time of flight to the target will be the one most displaced by wind drift." so a pellet traveling at X speed will/would be less "displaced" than a Slug traveling at Y, X and Y being relative.

again thank you all
 
Oldspook, " Almost always the projectile which has the longest time of flight to the target will be the one most displaced by wind drift." so a pellet traveling at X speed will/would be less "displaced" than a Slug traveling at Y, X and Y being relative.

And herein lies the error. The above statement is NOT true. It depends on BC and not on speed. Try this. Using ChairGun, Strelok Pro or Shooter, plug in two scenarios. Let’s say a pellet (or slugs, doesn’t matter) with the same BC. One going 850 FPS, the other going 1050 FPS. Then input a 10mph cross wind and 100 yard target distance. Now look at the wind drift amount. You would think that the one that is much faster would drift LESS. But the reality is that is actually drifts MORE than the slower speed. Huh? Blew my mind before I understood the physics behind it. I know many very experienced shooters that still don’t believe the science... FYI., I love to see competitors shooting .30 cal 44.75 grain pellets over 1000 FPS. Makes me smile knowing that my gun shooting at 850 to 875 FPS has a wind drift advantage... and the windier it gets the bigger the advantage. Why else do you think Ted shoots his .30 cal Impact at 850 FPS?
 
That's what I took from the "hard air" reading, But I struggle to understand it, and driving on my lack of understanding is that I still read/watch many air gun folk state that one reason slugs shoot better in the wind is due to the (higher) speed they can be shot at.

methinks this needs more discussion, and due to the low number* of response's I got , It may be better if a more popular AGN member brought it up, 😉.



* if High quality .
 
I will have to revisit my choice to use my 22-250 over my .223 on breezy days. Both shoot the same 50gr Nosler. One at 3,300 and the other at 3,700fps. I swore over the last 40 years of groundhog hunting that my 22-250’s drifted a little less. I must have been suffering from a 40 year hallucination. It will give me something to do on the next windy day at the range.
 
Harry, this link below is the previous time this was discussed. It’s concerning pellets and slugs subsonic performance in the wind. It seems to come up about once a year on AGN and there are always the science deniers spouting off how it just can’t be true, how the earth is really flat, and how the sun revolves around the earth.
I confess to knowing nothing about .22-250 or .222, or even my .260 Win Mag as far as comparing drift to other bullets traveling at 3500+ FPS. 
I do know what the proven science says about subsonic pellet flight, and the conclusions above are supported by personal observation and by the ballistics programs available.

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/is-faster-always-better-in-the-wind/
 
Exactly. The magic words. Profile density. Or as most shooters know it as ballistic coefficient which is directly proportional to profile density. 
Let’s look at a specific case directly related to airgunners and to me to be exact. I shoot a .22 EDGun R3 Long as my slug gun. I shoot the .217 NSA 20.2 grain slugs, BC of 0.074. So I normally shoot them around 985 FPS. And imagine a 150 yard shot at a ground squirrel in a 15 MPH cross wind. My horizontal drift by Strelok Pro and Shooter is 12.7 MOA or 20 inches. Hmmmm. Let’s crank those slugs up 100 FPS to 1085 FPS. Still about 50 FPS under the speed of sound. Now I take the same shot under the same conditions with the same slugs, but my drift is 14.0 MOA or 22 inches...

WTF? I increased my reg pressure from 130 to 140 bar and tuned the gun for maximum power, and I’m rewarded with a shot that drifts more than it did plus efficiency went down the crapper...

I gotta say, its REALLY hard to accept what doesn’t seem to make sense. But physics is physics, no two ways about it... And this above is an example with slugs. It’s much more pronounced with pellets.
 
Funny how this comes up almost every year yet like Mike mentioned there's still doubters. Test it yourselves. Try it on the various ballistic calculators. And it's only for sub-sonic projectiles. Particularly ones shot in the transonic region that happens to actually slow your pellet down faster thus messing with the BC. And remember wind closest to yourself will cause the biggest push compared to closest to the target. That's why it's affected downrange more due to it's poor BC from the start even though the BC picks up around the 850fps range it's too late as the damage was done from the start.
 
I will have to revisit my choice to use my 22-250 over my .223 on breezy days. Both shoot the same 50gr Nosler. One at 3,300 and the other at 3,700fps. I swore over the last 40 years of groundhog hunting that my 22-250’s drifted a little less. I must have been suffering from a 40 year hallucination. It will give me something to do on the next windy day at the range.

Your suspicion was correct. 

I put some data in my SHOOTER app for you using a Berger 50gr bullet with a 10mph full value wind from 3 o'clock.

These are drift numbers in moa.

223R - 200Y= 2.2, 300Y= 3.6, 400Y= 5.2

22-250R - 200Y=1.9, 300Y=3.1, 400y=4.4

The farther this bullet gets away from the barrel the worse it's going to be for the 223.

My advice is to use a Hornady 40gr vmax/.21BC in the 223 and keep it inside 300Y, but use the 53gr Hornady vmax/.290BC in the 22-250 because it has the highest BC of the lighter 22 caliber bullets, only exceeded when at 68gr. 

The 40gr vmax will be going approx 3700 fps because it's lighter weight and has the same BC as the 50gr Berger so now you have 22-250-ish drift with it. 

So now your drift at 400Y with the 22-250 and 53gr vmax would be 2.7 moa vs 4.4 moa of the .196 BC of the 50gr Berger bullet.


 
Ahhh, gotcha. Please explain how that affects drift, I’m not aware of much more than sectional density and it’s relation to BC. When you say profile density do you mean form factor? I’ve not seen profile density mentioned in the ballistics manuals. I’m no expert, just relating what I’ve learned and how BC relates to wind drift, and the confirmed science behind it. Ask me how Nuclear Power Plants function and I can go really deep on those topics...
 
Ahhh, gotcha. Please explain how that affects drift, I’m not aware of much more than sectional density and it’s relation to BC. When you say profile density do you mean form factor? I’ve not seen profile density mentioned in the ballistics manuals. I’m no expert, just relating what I’ve learned and how BC relates to wind drift, and the confirmed science behind it. Ask me how Nuclear Power Plants function and I can go really deep on those topics...


Yes, side profile, not frontal.

I said is "seems" it could, but I'm not convinced either way. A good chance that you are correct and only BC matters, regardless of spin stabilization or drag stabilization.
 
Thanks Centercut, I see in bold “subsonic”. That could definitely be the difference maker. Has anyone tested this drift thing real world or are you just relying on what an App tells you. I’m just asking because it’s interesting and I never used any ballistic Apps. I am still old school and fortunate to be able to shoot out my dining room window 200yrds with airguns or go down the street and shoot 1,000yrds with my boom booms. So all my data is actual. All the talk and reference to these apps has been temping me but it will make me a clicker again. I broke myself of scope clicking a couple years ago except when shooting over 500yrds. Trying to keep my scopes happy.
 
Excerpt from my topic linked above from a year ago.

——————————————————-
First, I was shooting Sunday, and had my .25 Vulcan Tactic shooting the Kings at 888 FPS. And next to it, I had my .25 Cricket, which normally shoots the Heavies at 905 FPS. I was shooting targets at 85 yards, in a fairly strong left to right breeze, probably 6 to 8 mph, and steady. I had shot a couple of magazines with the Vulcan, and the pellet was moving between 1.5 and 1.75 mils. I thought, lets try the Cricket, with the Kings, at about 1000 FPS. The pellets are flying much faster, so it should be less affected by the wind. Right? Well, not… With the much faster pellet speed, I was getting pretty much the same drift, maybe even slightly more (1/8 mil more on average). To say I was surprised would be an understatement…

————————————————————

This was my really world experience that got me to questioning all the “faster is better” movement which turns out to be an old wives tale...

There are other factors affecting accuracy at 100 yards. Faster can be slightly beneficial in that your ES, as a percentage of overall speed can be less and therefore not affect drop as much as the same ES at a slower speed.

I also think faster can be detrimental when it comes to vertical jump with pellets. Faster equals higher spin equals more vertical movement with quartering winds.

So of course there are trade offs whatever you decide. My brain hurts....
 
Seeing how wind is our or at least my worst enemy with an airgun, I find that very interesting. I would have been surprised also if I was sitting at the bench with you. Maybe with airguns, because we consider jumping 880 to 1,000fps a big jump, it’s not enough to overcome the wind. Wonder what the difference would be if you were shooting that pellet 500fps then jumped up to 1,000.