Short stroking
- Thread starter josh3rd
- Start date
It reduces the swept volume of the compression chamber, and shortens the lock time. Sometimes it is helpful and other times not.
It usually reduces power by about 1.5 FPE. If you are trying to get a gun down a bit, it might get you there. I have had mixed results but it is certainly worth a try.
In my HW guns it hasn't made much difference at the target. It improved one of my TX's greatly.
As always, your mileage may vary.
It usually reduces power by about 1.5 FPE. If you are trying to get a gun down a bit, it might get you there. I have had mixed results but it is certainly worth a try.
In my HW guns it hasn't made much difference at the target. It improved one of my TX's greatly.
As always, your mileage may vary.
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It’s generally accepted that the shorter the stroke, the less hold sensitive the gun. Not necessarily more accurate. Just easier to shoot accurately, from different firing positions, which is important in real world shooting and competition like HFT.
All the things that increase power- longer stroke, stronger spring, heavier piston, larger tube diameter- they all increase hold sensitivity because they increase movement and vibration during the shot cycle. The longer stroke probably increases lock time too so the follow through needs to be that much better.
Follow through is especially tricky with a gun that moves and vibrates while the pellet is still in the bore. That is why long stroke magnum springers can be so hold sensitive.
Also, when you are trying to reduce the power of an air rifle to UK specs for example, if you just clip a few coils off the spring you are now suffering from increased lock time that requires better follow through. But not only that, your power level and shot cycle could fluctuate dramatically from one pellet to the next and make it kind of tricky. But if you reduce the amount of air available to compress (short stroke it, and/or sleeve the piston) now you can use less spring and even still improve lock time AND decrease vibration while reaching your goal of 11-ish foot pounds. And more consistently with a wide variety of ammo.
As you probably know by now the most powerful springer, regardless of quality of materials and craftsmanship, is never the best one to hunt with. You want the most accurate springer that you can shoot with high accuracy. And of you only have around 13 FPE to work with in a perfectly smooth tuned springer, it’s more than the UK boys have to work with lol. 11 or so FPE is plenty up to jack rabbit sized game, inside 20 yards or so even with heart lung shots.
There used to be a tuner on GTA (shadow) that killed piles of raccoons with about a 13 fpe Gamo. Not sure what happened to him he just kind of faded away. Had some health problems a while back, doesn’t seem that long ago though. I hope he’s ok.
Anyway I am so long winded. I am sorry for posting a novel here hope you have the patience to read it all lol. I might not.
All the things that increase power- longer stroke, stronger spring, heavier piston, larger tube diameter- they all increase hold sensitivity because they increase movement and vibration during the shot cycle. The longer stroke probably increases lock time too so the follow through needs to be that much better.
Follow through is especially tricky with a gun that moves and vibrates while the pellet is still in the bore. That is why long stroke magnum springers can be so hold sensitive.
Also, when you are trying to reduce the power of an air rifle to UK specs for example, if you just clip a few coils off the spring you are now suffering from increased lock time that requires better follow through. But not only that, your power level and shot cycle could fluctuate dramatically from one pellet to the next and make it kind of tricky. But if you reduce the amount of air available to compress (short stroke it, and/or sleeve the piston) now you can use less spring and even still improve lock time AND decrease vibration while reaching your goal of 11-ish foot pounds. And more consistently with a wide variety of ammo.
As you probably know by now the most powerful springer, regardless of quality of materials and craftsmanship, is never the best one to hunt with. You want the most accurate springer that you can shoot with high accuracy. And of you only have around 13 FPE to work with in a perfectly smooth tuned springer, it’s more than the UK boys have to work with lol. 11 or so FPE is plenty up to jack rabbit sized game, inside 20 yards or so even with heart lung shots.
There used to be a tuner on GTA (shadow) that killed piles of raccoons with about a 13 fpe Gamo. Not sure what happened to him he just kind of faded away. Had some health problems a while back, doesn’t seem that long ago though. I hope he’s ok.
Anyway I am so long winded. I am sorry for posting a novel here hope you have the patience to read it all lol. I might not.
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The hope is that reducing stroke will shorten shot time, and maybe reduce the effect of less than perfect follow through. I tried it in a TX200HC and can't say any magic resulted. The short stroke piston has been replaced with the original at this point. The mods that did improve accuracy for me were reworking the trigger, reducing power to around 11.5 ft-lb, minimal lube with Vortek seal, AA Field pellets, and a dependable scope. Gun shoots great now.
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My honest opinion is it will prove passe…a current trend that will have its day.
Sure, you get a few milli seconds shorter cycle, but ive known many a long stroke gun outshoot shorter stroke guns. The long stroke FWB sport and HW80 spring to mind, trouncing many shorter stroke guns because of other factors in their build quality, quality of rifling etc.
One thing being overlooked by the short stroke brigade is the effect on velocity, which it reduces. Faster pellets get out the barrel quicker, for less time for recoil to effect the gun, in some cases no time, as the pellet is fast enough to have left the gun before any recoil takes place.
Ive always tuned for consistent power, not employing designs which reduce stroke and then enjoying flatter trajectory and less wind effect….
If everyone learnt to shoot and not get so hung up on short stroking, other benefits can be enjoyed.
Sure, you get a few milli seconds shorter cycle, but ive known many a long stroke gun outshoot shorter stroke guns. The long stroke FWB sport and HW80 spring to mind, trouncing many shorter stroke guns because of other factors in their build quality, quality of rifling etc.
One thing being overlooked by the short stroke brigade is the effect on velocity, which it reduces. Faster pellets get out the barrel quicker, for less time for recoil to effect the gun, in some cases no time, as the pellet is fast enough to have left the gun before any recoil takes place.
Ive always tuned for consistent power, not employing designs which reduce stroke and then enjoying flatter trajectory and less wind effect….
If everyone learnt to shoot and not get so hung up on short stroking, other benefits can be enjoyed.
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Coincidentally enough, both the FWB Sport and HW80 have pretty well deserved reputations for being hold sensitive as hell. In all reality, neither of those guns have a "long" stroke at all. The HW80 and FWB124 stroke is actually SHORTER than the HW95, and the HW80 is SHORTER than even the HW97. I don't see your point here.
"Ive always tuned for consistent power, not employing designs which reduce stroke" ......but you go on to tell us that short stroking is dumb, when you have no experience with it.
"One thing being overlooked by the short stroke brigade is the effect on velocity, which it reduces. Faster pellets get out the barrel quicker, for less time for recoil to effect the gun, in some cases no time, as the pellet is fast enough to have left the gun before any recoil takes place." .......you do realize that the piston has to move forward and reach the end of it's stroke to build pressure to move the pellet, right? If that piston goes forward, the rifle moves. And that happens BEFORE the pellet is out of the barrel. And in a higher powered gun, which almost always has more swept volume, this takes even more motion/force.
I really don't think anyone here with any experience whatsoever with spring guns would disagree, that a high powered spring gun is generally harder to shoot than a low powered one. Stroke length not even being considered here.
Short stroking is not a cure for an ill shooting gun, and it's not some magic recipe to make a gun shoot well. It is however a useful method in reducing power while keeping efficiency and bounce timing in check. And can make for an extremely quick and forgiving rifle to shoot when done correctly, and in some cases not give up much or any power at all. You can't just slap a longer piston head or longer latch rod on any rifle and expect miracles, that's not how it works.
Reducing hold sensitivity and decreasing "lock time" is actually all about tuning the bounce point. You get the bounce point as short as possible and at the right time, and hold sensitivity is greatly reduced and the gun seems instantaneous. Taking a gun and slapping in a weaker spring to reduce power is a good recipe for screwing this up as it induces bounce. However, reducing the stroke while keeping more spring can drop the power and keep the bounce point short.
Perfect example: The TX200 Mk1 was a very sweet shooting gun with an 84mm stroke. The MK3 saw the introduction of a 98mm stroke. The gun didn't make much more power, but the recoil went up significantly. Short stroking these guns back down to around 84mm is a popular conversion and makes them shoot MUCH nicer.
Also, shoot a HW50S and a HW95 side by side. The only difference between powerplants is the stroke length being 13mm or so shorter on the 50S. That will be a perfect example of what a short stroked gun will shoot like.
Again, it's not a magic recipe to make any gun shoot better. It's a method to drop power or tune bounce, and when done right it's very effective. Lot's of ways to screw it up, like anything it has to be done right, to be right.
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There are other factors at play with the FWB 124 and HW80 that increase hold sensitivity. Either would benefit from a shorter stroke, with regards to hold sensitivity, at the sacrifice of power.
In general, every factor that increases potential power of a spring rifle also makes it more hold sensitive.
All “long stroke” springers are inherently hold sensitive, and although they can be tamed they are still long stroke springers. They will never be as easy to shoot as a gun with less stroke.
Examples of long stroke guns- RWS 350, Webley Patriot, All the Hatsan 125/130/135 guns, the Hatsan 155, Diana 460.
The Hatsan guns have myriad other issues that contribute to hold sensitivity, but even after being transformed and rebarreled they are still long stroke guns and still hold sensitive.
The HW80 achieves high power with a larger diameter tube vs a longer stroke for very good reason. It would be harder to manage with a longer stroke.
If the length of the stroke made no difference to hold sensitivity then the piston class of HFT would be ruled by guys shooting Magnum springers tuned to 19 fpe. But nearly every D48 or D52 in the winners circle has been short stroked.
Short stroked D48/52 rifles have been employed in HFT for a long time now. The short stroke isn’t a new fad, there is nothing new about it.
In general, every factor that increases potential power of a spring rifle also makes it more hold sensitive.
All “long stroke” springers are inherently hold sensitive, and although they can be tamed they are still long stroke springers. They will never be as easy to shoot as a gun with less stroke.
Examples of long stroke guns- RWS 350, Webley Patriot, All the Hatsan 125/130/135 guns, the Hatsan 155, Diana 460.
The Hatsan guns have myriad other issues that contribute to hold sensitivity, but even after being transformed and rebarreled they are still long stroke guns and still hold sensitive.
The HW80 achieves high power with a larger diameter tube vs a longer stroke for very good reason. It would be harder to manage with a longer stroke.
If the length of the stroke made no difference to hold sensitivity then the piston class of HFT would be ruled by guys shooting Magnum springers tuned to 19 fpe. But nearly every D48 or D52 in the winners circle has been short stroked.
Short stroked D48/52 rifles have been employed in HFT for a long time now. The short stroke isn’t a new fad, there is nothing new about it.
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One thing you failed to mention, is that the rifles you listed all also have large diameter pistons.
Larger diameter pistons in spring guns are inherently less efficient, because they have more frontal surface area and are therefore harder to push. They take more spring to move in other words. They are only able to overcome the resulting bounce that would occur by relying on their mass weight. More mass and the extra spring required lead to increased recoil. Basic pneumatic or hydraulic principles will prove this.
Long stroke springers can be very docile and tame, but they have to be coupled with smaller diameter pistons and short transfer ports. Actually, the most efficient airgun powerplants would have very small pistons and longer strokes. Increased efficiency is always a benefit, because it requires less spring, less cocking effort, and can produce less recoil. But it can also be screwed up just as any other setup.
The HW80 and the FWB124 are some of the most inefficient and backwards designed spring guns ever produced. Look how close a .177 HW95 is in power to a .177 HW80, and then look at how much nicer the HW95 shoots. Increased efficiency is the difference. Same goes for the FWB, it produces the same or usually less power than an HW95 but more recoil. Efficiency.
But overall I agree with your post.
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The HW80 can make a LOT more power than the HW95. But I’m not gonna waste the rest of my Sunday arguing with you.
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Thump….With that epistle you just answered the question of not seeing my point.
You state the FWB is as hold sensitive as hell but actually has a short ish stroke….
As i stated there are many variables but this business (or people in business) of constantly reducing strokes and reducing volumes is not automatically the way to go. Incidentally i could shoot an early MK1 FWB sport at 12 ftlbs beyond all words better than i could ever shoot a HW95 short stroked, or otherwise, but i know of many that the opposite would be true. I had set it up Turner style, and researched my pellets, but i always appreciated the weight, balance and angle of the grip of that gun….maybe it just suited me.
I have always shot less able with lower power provided shot cycle was not too crazily heavy, even if the gun did feel less nice .. preferring of reduced pellet time in the air and flatter trajectory…my skill to dial out hold sensitivity with technique meaning slam and recoil less of an issue to me….just me after good familiarity with my gun..
As regarding lacking knowledge….I have worked with Tony Leach on projects and prescribed the use of Delrin to John Bowkett way back in the 80s…I have fitted out many short stroked guns, but i go in the other direction, leaving them OEM …as reg stroke length.
You state the FWB is as hold sensitive as hell but actually has a short ish stroke….
As i stated there are many variables but this business (or people in business) of constantly reducing strokes and reducing volumes is not automatically the way to go. Incidentally i could shoot an early MK1 FWB sport at 12 ftlbs beyond all words better than i could ever shoot a HW95 short stroked, or otherwise, but i know of many that the opposite would be true. I had set it up Turner style, and researched my pellets, but i always appreciated the weight, balance and angle of the grip of that gun….maybe it just suited me.
I have always shot less able with lower power provided shot cycle was not too crazily heavy, even if the gun did feel less nice .. preferring of reduced pellet time in the air and flatter trajectory…my skill to dial out hold sensitivity with technique meaning slam and recoil less of an issue to me….just me after good familiarity with my gun..
As regarding lacking knowledge….I have worked with Tony Leach on projects and prescribed the use of Delrin to John Bowkett way back in the 80s…I have fitted out many short stroked guns, but i go in the other direction, leaving them OEM …as reg stroke length.
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Sure it can, fitted with aftermarket parts and in .22 if you don't get a poop barrel. And so can an HW95. But I'm talking out of the box, in .177, as I stated in my post above. Most people don't "short stroke" for power, so that's why I specifically mentioned .177.
Weihrauch themselves rate the HW80 at only 17ish FPS faster than the HW95 in .177
Most independent tests rate the HW80 at 1-2fpe higher than the HW95 in .177
And out of the box the HW95 is much nicer to shoot. It has a longer stroke, and is much more efficient, Buy it and try it, you'll see.
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We tuned both at Vmach from early 80s (in the case of the 80) until present day.
Its true that the 95 is a more efficient tool but this is at 12ftlb velocities. The whacking great 30mm of Cylinder of the 80 is wasted diameter in efficiency terms at UK velocities, it would be better sleeved down to a 95. With no point (unless you already owned an 80) you would simply do better buying the 95 but this is not the end of the story. The 80 will push on into 20ftlbs territory …21ftlbs to be exact (Venom Mach1) and this thing on FAC in custom wood work, could take rabbit at 65yds and was known for benched group at 65yds of 3/4” Its out the 95s league at this power because the 95 cannot get there with its smaller swept volume….end of story….it does not have the capacity. This is because higher volume of air out scores greater stroke length in this case.
The 95 gets a mixed reaction. Some shooters do well, others not so well. Its lighter weight benefits slighter built shooters, but heavier built guys prefer the deadening weight of the 97, 80 52/54 etc..but this does not fully explain the mixed results with the 95 often sold on in favour of the better 97.
Looking into the issues, i discovered (as did Hector Medina) that the breech leade is very tight on this gun, preferring of Crosman Premier. Shooters using modern FTT pellets with tighter skirts found inconsistent breech fitting introduced downrange inconsistency….chasing their tail forever to try and find out why, and selling the gun on when they could not. The 98 also has the same issue. A large number of shooters have reported issues, but incorrectly blaming muzzle flip etc..Its not…its pellet fit. Set up correctly, with the right pellet, the 95 is first class rifle,
The 95 can also lock up inconsistently if you over tighten the breech…its a mechanical foible of this gun that is not present with the 80.
Some guns can still be great, despite poor efficiency. The new seal versions of the HW35 I have found to be superb, despite inefficient balance of the internals. Its best ever design lock up perfect leade levelling up its lesser efficiency, many shooters managing to out shoot both the above guns with this gun, but not the 97.
Theres more to this game than meets the eye…Fit, feel, balance, lock up, leade, rifling etc…efficiency also…somewhere in this mix.
Its true that the 95 is a more efficient tool but this is at 12ftlb velocities. The whacking great 30mm of Cylinder of the 80 is wasted diameter in efficiency terms at UK velocities, it would be better sleeved down to a 95. With no point (unless you already owned an 80) you would simply do better buying the 95 but this is not the end of the story. The 80 will push on into 20ftlbs territory …21ftlbs to be exact (Venom Mach1) and this thing on FAC in custom wood work, could take rabbit at 65yds and was known for benched group at 65yds of 3/4” Its out the 95s league at this power because the 95 cannot get there with its smaller swept volume….end of story….it does not have the capacity. This is because higher volume of air out scores greater stroke length in this case.
The 95 gets a mixed reaction. Some shooters do well, others not so well. Its lighter weight benefits slighter built shooters, but heavier built guys prefer the deadening weight of the 97, 80 52/54 etc..but this does not fully explain the mixed results with the 95 often sold on in favour of the better 97.
Looking into the issues, i discovered (as did Hector Medina) that the breech leade is very tight on this gun, preferring of Crosman Premier. Shooters using modern FTT pellets with tighter skirts found inconsistent breech fitting introduced downrange inconsistency….chasing their tail forever to try and find out why, and selling the gun on when they could not. The 98 also has the same issue. A large number of shooters have reported issues, but incorrectly blaming muzzle flip etc..Its not…its pellet fit. Set up correctly, with the right pellet, the 95 is first class rifle,
The 95 can also lock up inconsistently if you over tighten the breech…its a mechanical foible of this gun that is not present with the 80.
Some guns can still be great, despite poor efficiency. The new seal versions of the HW35 I have found to be superb, despite inefficient balance of the internals. Its best ever design lock up perfect leade levelling up its lesser efficiency, many shooters managing to out shoot both the above guns with this gun, but not the 97.
Theres more to this game than meets the eye…Fit, feel, balance, lock up, leade, rifling etc…efficiency also…somewhere in this mix.
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No, it makes way more power than an R9 even in factory configuration. But tuned for power?
I’d like to see your shot groups with a R9 (13 fpe factory gun) maxed out at 15 to maybe (big maybe) 17 fpe compared to an R1 (16-18 fpe factory gun) maxed out at easily 20 fpe.
The R1 was made to be a magnum. Even in factory configuration, an R1 -especially in .22 caliber- can do what a HW95 will never ever be able to do.
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Some interesting comments here. Yes, my R9 has two very tight points in the bore at both ends of the breech block which I assume are what makes it pellet fussy. I did work on those areas with JB bore paste, and it seemed to help some, but the gun is still picky about which pellet you feed it. In contrast my FWB Sport has a perfectly uniform pellet fit from breech all the way to the choke, and is not pellet fussy at all.
On efficiency, all the test reports I have seen indicate it takes swept volume of around 60cc or more to obtain significantly more power from .22 than .177. So rifles like the R1/HW80 or Diana 48 are usually more efficient in .22 caliber. The FWB Sport does have that 60cc swept volume, which is why I wish they had offered it in .22, although I am very satisfied with my .177 even though the firing cycle is a little abrupt.
On efficiency, all the test reports I have seen indicate it takes swept volume of around 60cc or more to obtain significantly more power from .22 than .177. So rifles like the R1/HW80 or Diana 48 are usually more efficient in .22 caliber. The FWB Sport does have that 60cc swept volume, which is why I wish they had offered it in .22, although I am very satisfied with my .177 even though the firing cycle is a little abrupt.
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I did not know that about the FWB Sport. I really wish we could get a max power kit for that one. I just want to see what happens.
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Simple, honest questions:
Have you owned an HW80 and an HW95 in .177?
Do you own a chronograph?
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So you're telling me that the HW80, which is built exactly the same way, somehow doesn't suffer from the "tight breech leade" issue? I have found it to be present on basically every HW I've been into, including the underlevers and several HW80s. Just curious if you have found otherwise.
And overtightening the pivot bolt to the point of affecting lockup would be an incredibly noticeable mistake. I don't see how that's a fault of the gun, and it's certainly possible to do on the 80 as well. Not sure what that has to do with any of this.
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It really blows my mind reading all the complaints on here about the leade in the R9 and pellet inconsistency. The absolute worst 5 shot group group from my R9 at 25 yards was maybe 3/4”. It shoots everything from RWS Supermag to JSB hades, some better than others of course. Loves Crosman Hollow Points, first 5 shots out of this gun out of the box were 5 CPHP about half the diameter of a dime edge to edge. Less than .3” ctc.
I do “smudge” them in real good with my fingertip. Just a habit formed by shooting a lot of breakbarrels.
I do “smudge” them in real good with my fingertip. Just a habit formed by shooting a lot of breakbarrels.
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