Scope vs Diopter/Irons

[MDriskill]

Thanks gents! Very helpful info, it sounds like I mis-judged the FWB Sport's setup. Could someone please post a photo of the Sport's scope rail area? I may have mis-read the shot I found; are those transverse grooves on top (as seen in my 300S pic above), or holes for a scope stop?

If an Anschutz sight will not adjust low enough, then I would guess the TS1 in a scope ring would have the same issue. It sounds more and more like a Williams is the way to go.

 

[Michigander]

Just to make sure I wasn't misleading people, I went back and redid measurements using proper tools for the job. On dovetails, the female rail fit is actually controlled by the theoretical distance between opposite vee apexes. That is what would be called out on a drawing. This distance can be measured using thread wires and some geometry. Being lazy, I used my Anschutz MPR as a reference and measuring with 0.039" wires came up with relative dimensions for my FWB 300s and Sport. The Sport came in at 0.010" wider which explains why the Anschutz sight only fits part way. The 300s measured 0.022" wider which explains why the FWB diopter was too loose on the Sport. Compounding the problem of fitting one of these sights to the Sport was the fact that the Anschutz sight was already a very tight fit on the MPR, whereas the FWB diopter was already a rather loose fit on the 300s. The FWB diopter could be tipped onto the Sport rail, it didn't need to be slid on.

As to height, I came up with a rear sight height above the rail grooves of 0.710" on the Sport when sighted in at 25 yards. When the Anschutz sight was adjusted to the bottom of its gib, the peep hole was 0.690" above the rail grooves. Whether or not this will work on your Sport probably depends on barrel angle. As I recall, on my Sport the Anschutz sight couldn't quite be adjusted low enough.

And yes, those are transverse grooves on the top of the Sport receiver. SportsMatch makes a ring with a crosspin that is supposed to fit the transverse grooves on the Sport, the TO3 Special.

 

[pdxFrank]

I did some research and found this diopter. Any opinions / thoughts on this model? Has any one used this?

nary a problem on my AF Edge, but not as if it's a scope, pretty basic design.


i've been just fine with the less expensive Daisy peeps...

 

[jkingrph]

Most people, myself included, find that our old eyes get on better with a rear peep than a stock v-notch. Depends on your particular vision of course, but if you have problems seeing both the rear sights AND your target clearly it’s probably the way to go. My wife’s issue is a little different and leaving the stock rear on her HW30S and switching front insert to a circle/ghost sight has worked great for her.

Agree, but I think most of us Irregardless of age can do better with a diopter fs a square, V, or U shaped notch. Fifty something years ago when I entered college and got on that ROTC rifle team I quickly learned the advantage of a diopter. At that point I was nearsighted but my eyes were still young enough and flexible enough to accommodate any kind of open sights but the diopters were much more accurate. To be sure, I am certain that the increased sight radius had something to do with the accuracy ot those guns such sighted. Never thought about a square or U notch and a front diopter or as you say circle/ghost ring, I may have to give it a try.

 

[MDriskill]

What the TS1 looks like mounted, on a classic Beeman R8 (original HW 50). It fits the 11 mm scope grooves on this rifle very securely. It's not what you'd call petite, but note at least that it does not interfere with reaching the safety button.

And here is the adjuster module, removed from the base and mounted in a scope ring as noted above (a low model Sportsmatch seen here).

 

[Michigander]

What the TS1 looks like mounted, on a classic Beeman R8 (original HW 50). It fits the 11 mm scope grooves on this rifle very securely. It's not what you'd call petite, but note it does not interfere with reaching the safety button.

View attachment 292685


And here is the adjuster module, removed from the base and mounted in a scope ring as noted above (a low model Sportsmatch seen here).

View attachment 292684

I really like that sight! What a great solution for fitting to break barrels with various front sight heights and barrel angles. And I really like the R8 it is mounted on. Sold mine like a dummy!

 

[MDriskill]

Reading the discussions above, I got interested in measuring the vertical adjustment ranges of some aperture sights. These are not microscopically precise - eyeballed with a straightedge and a small ruler - but close enough for comparison purposes. They are measured from the bottom surface of the scope's rails, to the actual aperture opening.

+ Anschutz 6705: the height can go from a low of 11 mm, to a high of 26 mm. Quite a large range of adjustment, and the lowest setting in this group.

+ Anschutz 6700: 16 mm to 25 mm.

+ Weihrauch 13 mm: 18 mm to 27 mm.

+ Diana Diopter 75 T01: 14 mm to 22 mm.

+ AirForce TS1: With the adjuster module mounted on the base - which can move the module separately - the total vertical range is huge; 18 mm to 48 mm. Mounted in the Sportsmatch ring, the range is 22 mm to 30 mm - likely not low enough for many guns?

 

[cjtamu]

Agree, but I think most of us Irregardless of age can do better with a diopter fs a square, V, or U shaped notch. Fifty something years ago when I entered college and got on that ROTC rifle team I quickly learned the advantage of a diopter. At that point I was nearsighted but my eyes were still young enough and flexible enough to accommodate any kind of open sights but the diopters were much more accurate. To be sure, I am certain that the increased sight radius had something to do with the accuracy ot those guns such sighted. Never thought about a square or U notch and a front diopter or as you say circle/ghost ring, I may have to give it a try.

Like you, I prefer the diopter. I think I was 20 the first time I shot one. Didn’t need corrective lenses then but was still hooked. I shot Kim’s HW30S today at 10M and it worked pretty well for me. She’s really good with it. I was watching with small binoculars and I couldn’t even see the paper move her 2nd and 3rd shots. I have a Williams sitting here if she ever decides she wants to try it.

 

[josh3rd]

Reading the discussions above, I got interested in measuring the vertical adjustment ranges of some aperture sights. These are not microscopically precise - eyeballed with a straightedge and a small ruler - but make an interesting comparison. They are measured from the bottom surface of the scope's rails, to the actual aperture opening.

View attachment 292688

+ Anschutz 6705: the height can go from a low of 11 mm, to a high of 26 mm. Quite a large range of adjustment, and the lowest setting in this group.

+ Anschutz 6700: 16 mm to 25 mm.

+ Weihrauch 13 mm: 18 mm to 27 mm.

+ Diana Diopter 75 T01: 14 mm to 22 mm.

+ AirForce TS1: With the adjuster module mounted on the base - which can move the module separately - the total vertical range is huge; 18 mm to 48 mm. Mounted in the Sportsmatch ring, the range is 22 mm to 30 mm - likely not low enough for many guns?

Which one is most affordable and can be placed on a HW90/RX2 brother?

 

[jkingrph]

Which one is most affordable and can be placed on a HW90/RX2 brother?

Probably one of the Williams sights.

 

[josh3rd]

Probably one of the Williams sights.

Yes I figured so but I was referring to the one's in Mdriskill's photo

 

[beerthief]

would love to purchase the correct rear sight for FWB 600 unless someone has a old dusty one taking up space they want to get rid of ?

 

[MDriskill]

I'm not familiar with the RX 2, but if the scope grooves are 11 mm ones configured like other HW's, all of them should work EXCEPT the Diana. And don't forget HW's own classic diopter.

As for cost, I don't know, you'll have to shop around for used stuff at auction sites, etc. The AirForce TS 1 sight is the only one you can still buy new.

One thing I'd throw out: back when they were new, the Anschutz steel sights were upgrade models, supplied with their top guns (like the Match 54 rimfire) and costing about twice as much as the alloy ones. But modern sellers don't seem to know the diff. So we are either over-paying for the alloy ones or stealing the steel ones - take your pick! Expect to pay north of $100 for any nice Anschutz or HW specimen.

 

[jkingrph]

Yes I figured so but I was referring to the one's in Mdriskill's photo

In that case, probably the AirForce TS1. Again shop ebay for Anschutz sights.

Here is a link for one of the Anschutz 6700. I bought a couple from this seller, just be advised with slowness of international mail it might take 4-6 weeks to get here.

Anschutz sight diopter rearsight Anschutz match 54 shooting sport 11mm dovetail | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Anschutz sight diopter rearsight Anschutz match 54 shooting sport 11mm dovetail at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Windeage on this one is a push pull system via the large "thumbscrews" on either side of the diopter housing. elevation is click adjustable. Quite good, I like them. but about $10 more than the AirForce sight.

Again look at ebay, this seller often has more and is very good about posting good pictures and descriptions. The ones I got, obviously were used but hardly show an signs of wear and none of abuse.

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

Eastern Europe seems to be a treasure trove of vintage match rifle parts.

I have dealt with 2 different sellers on eBay from Bulgaria, and both have been excellent to do business with.
As mentioned above, the mail coming from there will be about as fast as the line at the DMV, but the parts are worth the wait if you want OG equipment.

 

[cjtamu]

Bought a Crosman 2300 Custom Shop gun from Douger couple weeks ago. Was so impressed with it I bought a 2300S for my bday present so Kim and I can shoot them together. It came with a nice little Williams TK notch site which is pretty useless with my vision. All this talk of diopters got me thinking, which can be dangerous. It looked just like the NIB FP-GR-TK I have. Pulled it out and the dimensions are the same so I decided to try it out. Works pretty darn well. Shooting it with kind of a modified taco hold. Will put the carbine stock on it sometime in the next few days and see how that goes.

 

[jkingrph]

Eastern Europe seems to be a treasure trove of vintage match rifle parts.

I have dealt with 2 different sellers on eBay from Bulgaria, and both have been excellent to do business with.
As mentioned above, the mail coming from there will be about as fast as the line at the DMV, but the parts are worth the wait if you want OG equipment.

Same here,and especially when it goes through Chicago customs.

 

[MDriskill]

Windage on this one is a push pull system via the large "thumbscrews" on either side of the diopter housing. elevation is click adjustable. Quite good, I like them. but about $10 more than the AirForce sight.

The 6700 is very interesting. As jkingrph describes, the windage adjustment actually works much like an old Sheridan sight, LOL. For example, to move it left you first loosen the thumbscrew on the left side, then tighten the one on the right - a little weird, but capable of microscopically fine, and securely locked, adjustments. The elevation adjuster is a typical click knob however.

It also has a longer base than most later Anschutz models, giving a great range of mounting location.

 

[specie]

Another feature the Anschutz 6702/6700 is that you can mount it on a FWB 11.3mm dovetail. It's necessary to splay slightly the base rails of the diopter, and use the front compression screw of the diopter in the rear transverse slot on the FWB dovetail, and rotate the compression screw such that it engages in the slot.

 

[MDriskill]

I have heard of others doing that, but I confess I'm too much of a coward to try it!

And, as nice as the Anschutz sights are, they have no particular advantage over the correct original FWB diopters (one suspects that FWB chose this rail spacing specifically to prevent use of their rival's products). So I am loath to take any risk of dinging up the sight or the gun.