Scope vs Diopter/Irons

[Bear-of-Grayling]

There seems to be a renewed interest in the diopter/factory irons, these days. I have always enjoyed the diopter. For many decades however, I seemed to scope every new springer or powder burner I would get. Like many I have spent a lot of time behind a scope to only to learn it comes with its share of disappointments. I still primarily shoot most of my powder burners scoped but have a good share wearing some type of irons only. I think the reason I enjoy a springer so much is the all the challenges that come with one. The main thing I do not enjoy about a quality springer is the size and weight. The diopter helps create a good balance to these issues. It adds to the challenge while keeping the gun trim and thin. Same applies to the factory irons. If you have never tried a diopter/peep sight I would highly encourage you to try one. Factory open sights are to difficult for me because these tired eyes just do not make a clear image on the rear sight. Also a very important thing with a peep is to get the iris as close to the eye as ”safely“ possible because it allows the smallest hole possible and forces consistent head placement. This “consistent head placement” is to me the biggest challenge with a scope. Something very satisfying to print a clover with diopter.

 

[UncleB]

I agree, another benefit to a diopter it clarifies the ft sight and the target.

 

[MDriskill]

I collect mostly older springers, and love aperture sights. Besides making for much superior sighting, I would definitely reinforce the point you make re: handling. In the old days - before omnipresent big scopes, "magnum" power, and chronographs, lol - proper feel and balance was a design priority for manufacturers - and much debated by shooters!

Older rifles are designed for handle best with their iron sights. Changing from a breech-mounted open sight to a receiver-mounted aperture sight doesn't change balance noticeably. But a scope makes the gun significantly bulkier and heavier, and shoves the center of gravity rearward and upward.

Old Weihrauchs with "finger groove" stocks are excellent examples. The balance point is always near the midpoint of the groove, making it easy to carry without fatigue; raising the gun to the shoulder and sliding your front fingers to the rear of the groove gives the perfect, slightly muzzle-heavy, "hang" to the balance. The rifle becomes a natural extension of your arms and eyes...and not some weighty chunk you have to fight.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

I collect mostly older springers, and love aperture sights. Besides making for much superior sighting, I would definitely reinforce the point you make re: handling. In the old days - before cheap scopes, "magnum" power, and omnipresent chronographs, lol - proper feel and balance was a design priority for manufacturers.

Older rifles are designed for handle best with their iron sights. Changing from a breech-mounted open sight to a receiver-mounted aperture sight doesn't change balance noticeably. But a scope makes the gun significantly bulkier and heavier, and shoves the center of gravity rearward and upward.

Old Weihrauchs with "finger groove" stocks are excellent examples. The balance point is always near the midpoint of the groove, making it easy to carry without fatigue; raising the gun to the shoulder and sliding your front fingers to the rear of the groove gives the perfect, slightly muzzle-heavy, "hang" to the balance. The rifle becomes a natural extension of your arms and eyes...and not some weighty chunk you have to fight.

View attachment 291654

Good points. Also brings to my mind the discussion of locking barrels and underlevers. The claim is they are a step up in accuracy. If true and probably is then using the factory rear sight that is fixed to the barrel along with the front sight and always keeping on that true line would be at its most accurate position. If you are good with open sights (young eyes as I used to be) then enjoy it while you can.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

MDriskill posted a picture of a Williams/Beeman diopter that has a extension added to the iris to bring it closer to the eye hence the use of a smaller hole. A very effective and affordable solution for a diopter.

 

[MDriskill]

Here is the setup in question.

The adapter is a simple bushing with a male US eyepiece thread (7/32 x 40) on the front, and a female Euro eyepiece thread (9.5mm x 1.0mm) at the back. It allows you to use any accessory made for European sights in most US or UK sights (Williams, Redfield, Lyman, Parker-Hale). IMHO every iron-sight fan needs one of these!

The Microsight is a sort of fresnel lens that aids in simultaneous clear focus on the front sight and target, without magnification (made with the Euro thread, thus needing the adapter). No longer manufactured, unfortunately. Hector Medina has posted extensively about this interesting gadget on some other forums.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

Here is the setup in question.

The adapter is a simple bushing with a male US eyepiece thread (7/32 x 40) on the front, and a female Euro eyepiece thread (9.5mm x 1.0mm) at the back. It allows you to use any accessory made for European sights in most US or UK sights (Williams, Redfield, Lyman, Parker-Hale). IMHO every iron-sight fan needs one of these!

The Microsight is a sort of fresnel lens that aids in simultaneous clear focus on the front sight and target, without magnification (it's threaded for Euro sights, thus the need for the adapter). No longer manufactured, unfortunately. Hector Medina has posted extensively about this interesting gadget on some other forums.

View attachment 291666

Is there an extension made (maybe in different lengths) to fit the Williams sight and then to any brand of iris? Even Williams.

 

[MDriskill]

I don't know...but if not, it's something someone should do!

I know you can get simple extension tubes with the Euro thread on both ends (which you could use with the adapter bushing). But I've never seen an equivalent that would be a straight fit for the US eyepiece thread. I agree 200% - a set with a few diff lengths would be an awesome enhancement for the classic Williams sights, etc.

 

[pdxFrank]

peep-sights is about the only way i shoot now-a-days. my #backyardplinking fun is limited to 25Y so don't really need a scope for that.

 

[MDriskill]

Cool! I especially love the pistol / carbine set-up...!

 

[beerthief]

Diopter sight's has me thinking of HW30 W/ peeps as my next .

Have FWB600, HW97K, ,old beat HW35 irons
pcp's

 

[DonC]

Seems like Williams mfg is "missing the boat". Obviously thy could make alot of money by offering various length extension tubes.
I'm gonna web search for dies that might be for sale. McMaster Carr will be my first go to source. Maybe we will luck out and be able to make our own.
Also amybe one of our forum readers can suggest a tool and die person that could make a batch for us.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

Diopter sight's has me thinking of HW30 W/ peeps as my next .

Have FWB600, HW97K, ,old beat HW35 irons
pcp's

A HW30 is the perfect candidate. Here is my newest build (last week)HW30 from Krale with the Weihrauch diopter. An extension tube on the Williams diopter would do the same and keep the gun even lighter. Try it and you’ll be hooked.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

Seems like Williams mfg is "missing the boat". Obviously thy could make alot of money by offering various length extension tubes.
I'm gonna web search for dies that might be for sale. McMaster Carr will be my first go to source. Maybe we will luck out and be able to make our own.
Also amybe one of our forum readers can suggest a tool and die person that could make a batch for us.

That’s a great idea and put into action. Thank you. Keep us updated.

 

[cjtamu]

Just put a peep on my Diana 34 and it's a game changer for old eyes. I can now wear my glasses and see both the sight AND the target! Front sight comes into play on these too though. Talked with MDriskill elsewhere about that. The pointed front sight on that gun sometimes makes it difficult to see where the tip of it is. If you have replaceable inserts up front you're golden.

 

[beerthief]

A HW30 is the perfect candidate. Here is my newest build (last week)HW30 from Krale with the Weihrauch diopter. An extension tube on the Williams diopter would do the same and keep the gun even lighter. Try it and you’ll be hooked.
View attachment 291743

I haven't tried it and I'm already hooked ,

 

[MDriskill]

Going off on a tangent...but here's a vintage detail you might find interesting.

Like Weihrauch, early Walther (and FWB) diopters anchored to a few fixed points on the receiver. Later Anschutz and Diana came up with mount designs giving limitless fine adjustment of the sight's position, which must have been a solid selling point.

To compete with that, Walther came up with the idea of making the eye disk in two pieces, with the front shaft made in different lengths (pic is an LGV "Olympia" rifle from the late 60's; things are loosely attached in the photo to help make this visible). I've never seen any but the shortest shafts like this one, unfortunately. So, we aren't the first to think of variable eyepiece extension, ha.

If you could find some of these, they could of course be used in a Williams sight with the adapter bushing.

 

[jkingrph]

I just got to thinking, 5 have scopes 7 have diopters, one has factory rear leaf( FWB Sport)

Of the ones having scopes & diopters , I have counted my Diana air pro 54 in each group as I have a little Williams diopter tucked in under the scope so I can remove the scop and use it if desired.

When I want to shoot I am picking up a rifle with. Diopters more often than a scoped model.

I did find some extension tubes to use with the anschutz diopters on my HW rifles, Imcan move the sight base forward allowing easier access to the safety , keeping one of the diopter clamp screws out of the way

 

[specie]

MDriskill posted a picture of a Williams/Beeman diopter that has a extension added to the iris to bring it closer to the eye hence the use of a smaller hole. A very effective and affordable solution for a diopter.

Also, the earlier Anschutz 6700 sight has longer rails and so can be placed further back on the dovetail, and bring the iris closer to the eye.

 

[DonC]

I just got to thinking, 5 have scopes 7 have diopters, one has factory rear leaf( FWB Sport)

Of the ones having scopes & diopters , I have counted my Diana air pro 54 in each group as I have a little Williams diopter tucked in under the scope so I can remove the scop and use it if desired.

When I want to shoot I am picking up a rifle with. Diopters more often than a scoped model,

I agree that the rear leaf sight of the FWB Sport is soooo darn nice it commands o be used. It's the best of the best, IMO. I do prefer peep sights on my other rifles. When hunting I prefer no globe for front sight. It prevents quick target/prey acquisition sometimes because the globe gets in the way. For hunting I just use the factory front post on a Diana 52. This front post can be adjusted so easily because it's mounted on a angled ramp. The Model 52 can easily handle 10.5 grain in .177 for some decent ft/lbs on the prey. I have never tried the 13 grain pellets because I don'r want to overstress the action.