Scope levels. Is it necessary?

[Kevin23]

If your gun shoulders the exact same every single time and you only shoot short range (under 50yds) then not really necessary IMO. If your gun is tippy then you absolutely need one, I'll always have one on my field guns. 

Once you start getting in medium range (50-150yds) and long range (150+) then you need one because even 5 degrees canted is inches down range... and if you use holdovers, forget about it without a level. 



They are $10.. put one on each gun

 

[r1lover]

2fast2furious,

Lots of good information and a lot of (varying) experience here.

My 2 cents is YES, a scope level is important. I have them on almost all my air rifles and see them on many guns at field target matches as well.

You did not mention if you are shooting a high or low velocity gun which is important because the lower the velocity (or the longer the distance to target) the more arc there will be in your trajectory and the more important it becomes for that arc to be as near vertical only as possible. The more arc the further right or left your pellet will land if your gun is canted.

Nervoustrig explains how to install your scope so the vertical reticle wire bisects the center of your bore, and the merits of using a level that attaches to the scope tube vs. attaching to the dove tails or atop the scope rings. I use levels that attach to the dove tails because they are cheap ($15 to $20) and so far I've either been really lucky things squared up or my mediocre eyesight can't tell the difference.

bandg points out that if you "click", i.e., turn your turrets to adjust for wind and yardage, your POI is subject to potential tracking errors in the scope. I avoid this issue by using the holdover method and aim with the mil dots or hashes on the reticle instead.

Levels are definitely right for me. I never realized how crooked I held my rifles until I started using levels. I'd check the bubble for level, look through the scope and swear the reticle was off in the counter clockwise direction (I am right handed). When I let my brain correct my hold so the reticle appeared perfectly vertical/horizontal, the level was way off. When I switched to a left hand hold and repeated the reticle now looked off in the opposite, clockwise direction! I believe it has to do with my head position on the stock........whatever the reason the lesson was that if I let my brain determine level by looking through the scope then my gun is going to be canted and my shot will be off.

These levels can be had to fit picatiny rails or plain dovetail grooves, from Midwayusa or OpticsPlanet/Hawke. Just be sure if you order one that it fits your application.

 

[d1lazarus]

These are the levels I use to mount my scopes. Haven't failed me yet. The one has a magnet to hold it but if you have aluminum rails a couple of rubber bands work great.



https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/wheeler-engineering-level-level-level-scope-leveler?ds_e=GOOGLE&ds_c=Nb%7CGeneric%7CCatchAll%7CDSA&gclid=CjwKCAjwg4-EBhBwEiwAzYAlsuEEFXVvfNblSA3TdY99pX3nxvATTJ60CAZhFkrDBVqB9xNtXjhT0xoCGXUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[ToddGeddes63]

I feel the term "scope leveling" is misleading ,in that it is more scope alignment to the bore, and setting the cross hairs( reticle ) plumb vertically. scope levels come in to play to help with this. EXAMPLE I put my gun on a stand , level the stand / gun , mount the scope to the desired eye relief . now time for the "scope levels" put one level on the gun breach for "cant "adjustment and the other level on the scope to align the two .I then use a string like a plumb bob to confirm that it is good. bright fishing line with a weight also works good. The only real leveling is to the stand/gun the rest is cant alignment and crosshair plumb. THIS IS MY METHOD not gospel or maybe even correct ! I am not a scope guru or professional shooter, nor am I saying others are wrong. but I have been using this method for quite some time and I find it to be easy and effective for ME. Scopes are a personal preference deal for each person, size, magnification, eye relief and reticle choice . A friend of mine prefers a slight cant to his scope as to how he holds the gun, so if I were to look threw the scope with my hold of the gun, it looks out of plumb.. Again personal preference , but I would not use his setup or he mine.

 

[bandg]

I feel the term "scope leveling" is misleading ,in that it is more scope alignment to the bore, and setting the cross hairs( reticle ) plumb vertically. scope levels come in to play to help with this. EXAMPLE I put my gun on a stand , level the stand / gun , mount the scope to the desired eye relief . now time for the "scope levels" put one level on the gun breach for "cant "adjustment and the other level on the scope to align the two .I then use a string like a plumb bob to confirm that it is good. bright fishing line with a weight also works good. The only real leveling is to the stand/gun the rest is cant alignment and crosshair plumb. THIS IS MY METHOD not gospel or maybe even correct ! I am not a scope guru or professional shooter, nor am I saying others are wrong. but I have been using this method for quite some time and I find it to be easy and effective for ME. Scopes are a personal preference deal for each person, size, magnification, eye relief and reticle choice . A friend of mine prefers a slight cant to his scope as to how he holds the gun, so if I were to look threw the scope with my hold of the gun, it looks out of plumb.. Again personal preference , but I would not use his setup or he mine.

The most common view in opposition to this that one often reads is that finding any given point on the GUN that can be used accurately as LEVEL is unusual. I share that view, you do not seem to. You might be correct in all cases, some cases, or not at all. I never use the method because I don't believe I can accurately rely on any spot on the "gun" to be level. If one aligns the reticle with bore and then, while reticle is level, places a level on the "system" (the gun with scope mounted, and regardless of WHERE the level is placed) then their is no CANT unless it is introduced by the shooter. If such cant is introduced, the "system" is canted-both scope and gun. I try to avoid a view of "scope cant" separate from "gun cant" because ONCE a scope is accurately mounted and the level is accurately placed, the two (scope and gun) move in unison and can't be separated. As you note, such is my method of viewing things and might not work for you.

 

[AirNGasman]

I've never found scope levels necessary (or desirable) to compete successfully at the highest levels of airgun field competitions, however some airgunners might find them helpful. 

True confessions, I've also never found "state-of-the-art" rifles, pistols, monster-scopes, accessories, shooting aids and superfluous gadgetry necessary for success at the highest levels of airgun competitions.

That stated, a fellow competitor once gave me the highest honor yet, "That cave-man could win with a sling-shot and bucket of rocks!" That might be an exaggeration.

 

[Kevin23]

I feel the term "scope leveling" is misleading ,in that it is more scope alignment to the bore, and setting the cross hairs( reticle ) plumb vertically. scope levels come in to play to help with this. EXAMPLE I put my gun on a stand , level the stand / gun , mount the scope to the desired eye relief . now time for the "scope levels" put one level on the gun breach for "cant "adjustment and the other level on the scope to align the two .I then use a string like a plumb bob to confirm that it is good. bright fishing line with a weight also works good. The only real leveling is to the stand/gun the rest is cant alignment and crosshair plumb. THIS IS MY METHOD not gospel or maybe even correct ! I am not a scope guru or professional shooter, nor am I saying others are wrong. but I have been using this method for quite some time and I find it to be easy and effective for ME. Scopes are a personal preference deal for each person, size, magnification, eye relief and reticle choice . A friend of mine prefers a slight cant to his scope as to how he holds the gun, so if I were to look threw the scope with my hold of the gun, it looks out of plumb.. Again personal preference , but I would not use his setup or he mine.

This post isn't about scope leveling though, its about scope levels. As in the tool to avoid cant when shooting. Perfectly aligned scope should be the case regardless, but then if the shooter holds the gun at a slight cant (sometimes not even noticeable through the scope) you could be missing by 2 to as much as 12"+ at 100-200yds just because the gun is slightly tilted. Especially if you are not shooting on a leveled bench. 

Like I already said at 50yds and under it doesnt make a difference, but next time you are shooting to 100 on a nice solid rest.. just do a little experiment. Shoot 5 shots then slightly tilt the scope enough that you know you tilted it but that you really cant see much difference (if any) in crosshairs... I bet the next 5 are in a totally different place. 

You will rarely see them on competition shooting because they are either shooting bigger targets under 50yds where it doesn't matter, or they are shooting from a bench and have already used a pocket level to level the gun on bipods and locked everything down. 

 

[hdstroker]

You cant beat the pic rail /dove tail level offered by hawk 15 to18 bucks

 

[nervoustrig]

A level that attaches to the rail is useful only if it has an adjustment feature, or if you are incredibly lucky and the level happens to correspond with the reticle.

A level that attaches to the scope tube can be easily rotated to indicate level to the reticle. 

 

[bandg]

"useful only if it has an adjustment feature"

What is rotating the the level on the scope, chess?

Adjustment is adjustment.

 

[nervoustrig]

Most rail-mounted levels I have seen have no such adjustment. If you have one that does, great.

I do not understand your chess comment.

 

[bandg]

My error. I see that you are saying a RIGID rail mounted level (not adjustable) wouldn't function as needed. I forgot for a second when I made that post that someone might think that such a RIGID level is OK. It isn't, as you are indicating. Adjustability is necessary, whether tube mounted or rail mounted. My mistake, and my comment about chess was trying to say if the level is adjustable on the rail then that is just as good as adjustable on the tube. It wouldn't matter WHERE it was mounted, but it must be adjustable.

 

[ToddGeddes63]

I feel the term "scope leveling" is misleading ,in that it is more scope alignment to the bore, and setting the cross hairs( reticle ) plumb vertically. scope levels come in to play to help with this. EXAMPLE I put my gun on a stand , level the stand / gun , mount the scope to the desired eye relief . now time for the "scope levels" put one level on the gun breach for "cant "adjustment and the other level on the scope to align the two .I then use a string like a plumb bob to confirm that it is good. bright fishing line with a weight also works good. The only real leveling is to the stand/gun the rest is cant alignment and crosshair plumb. THIS IS MY METHOD not gospel or maybe even correct ! I am not a scope guru or professional shooter, nor am I saying others are wrong. but I have been using this method for quite some time and I find it to be easy and effective for ME. Scopes are a personal preference deal for each person, size, magnification, eye relief and reticle choice . A friend of mine prefers a slight cant to his scope as to how he holds the gun, so if I were to look threw the scope with my hold of the gun, it looks out of plumb.. Again personal preference , but I would not use his setup or he mine.

This post isn't about scope leveling though, its about scope levels. As in the tool to avoid cant when shooting. Perfectly aligned scope should be the case regardless, but then if the shooter holds the gun at a slight cant (sometimes not even noticeable through the scope) you could be missing by 2 to as much as 12"+ at 100-200yds just because the gun is slightly tilted. Especially if you are not shooting on a leveled bench. 

Like I already said at 50yds and under it doesnt make a difference, but next time you are shooting to 100 on a nice solid rest.. just do a little experiment. Shoot 5 shots then slightly tilt the scope enough that you know you tilted it but that you really cant see much difference (if any) in crosshairs... I bet the next 5 are in a totally different place. 

You will rarely see them on competition shooting because they are either shooting bigger targets under 50yds where it doesn't matter, or they are shooting from a bench and have already used a pocket level to level the gun on bipods and locked everything down. 

my mistake the topic as you said is about spirit levels not scope leveling . I should have read it more carefully 

 

[ToddGeddes63]

I feel the term "scope leveling" is misleading ,in that it is more scope alignment to the bore, and setting the cross hairs( reticle ) plumb vertically. scope levels come in to play to help with this. EXAMPLE I put my gun on a stand , level the stand / gun , mount the scope to the desired eye relief . now time for the "scope levels" put one level on the gun breach for "cant "adjustment and the other level on the scope to align the two .I then use a string like a plumb bob to confirm that it is good. bright fishing line with a weight also works good. The only real leveling is to the stand/gun the rest is cant alignment and crosshair plumb. THIS IS MY METHOD not gospel or maybe even correct ! I am not a scope guru or professional shooter, nor am I saying others are wrong. but I have been using this method for quite some time and I find it to be easy and effective for ME. Scopes are a personal preference deal for each person, size, magnification, eye relief and reticle choice . A friend of mine prefers a slight cant to his scope as to how he holds the gun, so if I were to look threw the scope with my hold of the gun, it looks out of plumb.. Again personal preference , but I would not use his setup or he mine.

This post isn't about scope leveling though, its about scope levels. As in the tool to avoid cant when shooting. Perfectly aligned scope should be the case regardless, but then if the shooter holds the gun at a slight cant (sometimes not even noticeable through the scope) you could be missing by 2 to as much as 12"+ at 100-200yds just because the gun is slightly tilted. Especially if you are not shooting on a leveled bench. 

Like I already said at 50yds and under it doesnt make a difference, but next time you are shooting to 100 on a nice solid rest.. just do a little experiment. Shoot 5 shots then slightly tilt the scope enough that you know you tilted it but that you really cant see much difference (if any) in crosshairs... I bet the next 5 are in a totally different place. 

You will rarely see them on competition shooting because they are either shooting bigger targets under 50yds where it doesn't matter, or they are shooting from a bench and have already used a pocket level to level the gun on bipods and locked everything down. 

After rereading the post started by 2fast2furious maybe HE can clear up the topic scope levels is it necessary? and what he was asking about... I took the topic as scope leveling / and mounting a scope with the aid of levels , and if it is necessary ? I think that my post is on topic and what he was asking ,NOT TRYING TO START AN ARGUEMENT HERE !! 

 

[bandg]

I feel the term "scope leveling" is misleading ,in that it is more scope alignment to the bore, and setting the cross hairs( reticle ) plumb vertically. scope levels come in to play to help with this. EXAMPLE I put my gun on a stand , level the stand / gun , mount the scope to the desired eye relief . now time for the "scope levels" put one level on the gun breach for "cant "adjustment and the other level on the scope to align the two .I then use a string like a plumb bob to confirm that it is good. bright fishing line with a weight also works good. The only real leveling is to the stand/gun the rest is cant alignment and crosshair plumb. THIS IS MY METHOD not gospel or maybe even correct ! I am not a scope guru or professional shooter, nor am I saying others are wrong. but I have been using this method for quite some time and I find it to be easy and effective for ME. Scopes are a personal preference deal for each person, size, magnification, eye relief and reticle choice . A friend of mine prefers a slight cant to his scope as to how he holds the gun, so if I were to look threw the scope with my hold of the gun, it looks out of plumb.. Again personal preference , but I would not use his setup or he mine.

This post isn't about scope leveling though, its about scope levels. As in the tool to avoid cant when shooting. Perfectly aligned scope should be the case regardless, but then if the shooter holds the gun at a slight cant (sometimes not even noticeable through the scope) you could be missing by 2 to as much as 12"+ at 100-200yds just because the gun is slightly tilted. Especially if you are not shooting on a leveled bench. 

Like I already said at 50yds and under it doesnt make a difference, but next time you are shooting to 100 on a nice solid rest.. just do a little experiment. Shoot 5 shots then slightly tilt the scope enough that you know you tilted it but that you really cant see much difference (if any) in crosshairs... I bet the next 5 are in a totally different place. 

You will rarely see them on competition shooting because they are either shooting bigger targets under 50yds where it doesn't matter, or they are shooting from a bench and have already used a pocket level to level the gun on bipods and locked everything down. 

After rereading the post started by 2fast2furious maybe HE can clear up the topic scope levels is it necessary? and what he was asking about... I took the topic as scope leveling / and mounting a scope with the aid of levels , and if it is necessary ? I think that my post is on topic and what he was asking ,NOT TRYING TO START AN ARGUEMENT HERE !!

You aren't starting an argument, just taking part in a dicussion. No problem. Seems we have 2 distinct "things" at work here. SETTING UP the scope correctly on the gun is one thing. Shooting with the correctly set up SYSTEM (gun and mounted scope) HELD "LEVEL" while shooting is the second thing. Some seem to be referring to using levels for the first purpose while others are referring to using the levels for the second purpose.

My opinion is-levels AREN'T necessary (or even helpful) for the first but ARE necessary for the second.

 

[ToddGeddes63]

I feel the term "scope leveling" is misleading ,in that it is more scope alignment to the bore, and setting the cross hairs( reticle ) plumb vertically. scope levels come in to play to help with this. EXAMPLE I put my gun on a stand , level the stand / gun , mount the scope to the desired eye relief . now time for the "scope levels" put one level on the gun breach for "cant "adjustment and the other level on the scope to align the two .I then use a string like a plumb bob to confirm that it is good. bright fishing line with a weight also works good. The only real leveling is to the stand/gun the rest is cant alignment and crosshair plumb. THIS IS MY METHOD not gospel or maybe even correct ! I am not a scope guru or professional shooter, nor am I saying others are wrong. but I have been using this method for quite some time and I find it to be easy and effective for ME. Scopes are a personal preference deal for each person, size, magnification, eye relief and reticle choice . A friend of mine prefers a slight cant to his scope as to how he holds the gun, so if I were to look threw the scope with my hold of the gun, it looks out of plumb.. Again personal preference , but I would not use his setup or he mine.

This post isn't about scope leveling though, its about scope levels. As in the tool to avoid cant when shooting. Perfectly aligned scope should be the case regardless, but then if the shooter holds the gun at a slight cant (sometimes not even noticeable through the scope) you could be missing by 2 to as much as 12"+ at 100-200yds just because the gun is slightly tilted. Especially if you are not shooting on a leveled bench. 

Like I already said at 50yds and under it doesnt make a difference, but next time you are shooting to 100 on a nice solid rest.. just do a little experiment. Shoot 5 shots then slightly tilt the scope enough that you know you tilted it but that you really cant see much difference (if any) in crosshairs... I bet the next 5 are in a totally different place. 

You will rarely see them on competition shooting because they are either shooting bigger targets under 50yds where it doesn't matter, or they are shooting from a bench and have already used a pocket level to level the gun on bipods and locked everything down. 

I took the topic as scope leveling / and mounting a scope with the aid of levels , and if it is necessary ? if I misunderstood the topic I would like for him to make clear that I did , it is his topic and question after all .so 2fast2furious did I miss what you were asking about? 

 

[fuznut]

Agree with air and gas. But if you think it might help go for it. Most who shoot a lot tend to trust their judgment more than some add on. I have removed the bubble from cheap levels and glued to the inside top of scope so i could see when looking through the scope. Worked better for me than mounted to scope tube on outside. Dont think i have ever seen a level cause anyone to shoot worse. But i dont feel the need to use one.

 

[bandg]

Agree with air and gas. But if you think it might help go for it. Most who shoot a lot tend to trust their judgment more than some add on. I have removed the bubble from cheap levels and glued to the inside top of scope so i could see when looking through the scope. Worked better for me than mounted to scope tube on outside. Dont think i have ever seen a level cause anyone to shoot worse. But i dont feel the need to use one.

There you go. As Patrick Swayze once famously said, "opinions vary". I don't agree with "most who shoot" but would agree with "many who shoot". But you have an opinion, as do I. I don't use levels while shooting nearly as much as I once did. In the past when shooting long range firearms regularly, I can say unequivocally that they helped MY accuracy at long ranges. And the longer the range, the more they helped. I don't tend to do "the same thing" with my air guns, because I'm relatively shooting much closer so it's a bit less of a factor. But the main reason I don't mount the levels on my air guns regularly isn't because I don't think it would help (I believe it would) but because with my vision today I can't really see the level clearly. Too close. Can't see it clearly, can't use it effectively. And yes, I've tried shooting with the reading glasses on and shifting up and down to see the level then move the lens to see the scope, but it doesn't work for me. Like many things, all relative.

 

[TeOh1776]

I can say that I have never used a level on a long gun consistently or attached one to my gun. I have double-checked to make sure it was straight when I first attached the scope to the gun just to not accidentally have it canted in the scope rings, but after that, I never thought to use a level again. I am a little curious to read about the different experiences people have had with one constantly attached. 

 

[bandg]

I can say that I have never used a level on a long gun consistently or attached one to my gun. I have double-checked to make sure it was straight when I first attached the scope to the gun just to not accidentally have it canted in the scope rings, but after that, I never thought to use a level again. I am a little curious to read about the different experiences people have had with one constantly attached.

A level isn't required. A level is a tool. Used for a purpose. At any relatively longer range, the trajectory of the pellet or bullet will cross LOS, rise above LOS by some given amount, and arc back down to meet LOS again at that longer range. IF you are correctly set up as you note (scope "level" to gun) and IF you hold level when you shoot (no CANT), then the pellet or bullet will rise and fall directly on the vertical, assuming no wind drift. But if you CANT THE SYSTEM (system=you, the gun, and the scope after mounting is completed) when you shoot by any amount, that arc above LOS deviates to the side of vertical. Beyond the first crossing of LOS it is always CW=Right deviation, CCW=Left deviation. That deviation from the vertical is the horizontal part of CANT ERROR. Dependent on target size, relative trajectory (determined by projectile and velocity), and amount of CANT that you do in error, a miss can result. At longer ranges, a miss becomes increasingly likely because of CANT. Said another way, at increasing distances, small amounts of CANT can cause a miss. A level can help to minimize the CANT. It won't affect trajectory, or trigger control, or wind drift. But it can reduce (eliminate?) the inadvertent CANT that the shooter does. A level is just a tool to eliminate or reduce one possible shooting error.