Scope for HW77 Hawke or Leupold
- Thread starter smgfish
- Start date
Frankly
There IS a brand that fills in the gap in between the cheaply produced over priced Chinese made scopes and the high end expensive Japanese and European scopes.
Meopta.
They are on sale 16% off usually have free shipping.
Regular $459 and $386 with discount.
It is atleast comparable if not better than the Leupold VX3 for only a fraction of the cost.
It also has a 10 yard focus with useable hold over reticles or with the regular cross hair among other reticle options.
It is so popular this specific model is just about all that's left in stock right now.
https://www.sportoptics.com/meopta-optika-5-4-20-50-1032581.html
A friend compared it to his $1500 Japan made Element Nexus he bought on sale for $1100 and $850 Chinese made Athlon Ares BTR Gen 2 bought on sale for $450 and preferred the Meopta's image quality over the others. The Ares had a 25 yard minimum focus.
I think he paid around $300 for his Meopta from another dealer when it was on sale at a cheaper price.
I want to buy the Athlon Ares ETR if I can find one below $800. He advised me to buy the Meopta Optika 6 version for less than $800 and believes the Ares ETR is way overpriced for a scope made in China.
They are made in the same Chinese scope factory as the Bushnell Forge that they sold for half off retail price.
Looks like there's a 50% price wiggle room.
Still waiting for both of my back ordered Chinese Vector Continental 30 mm and 34 mm I bought for around half price.
They are supposed to have German glass.
There IS a brand that fills in the gap in between the cheaply produced over priced Chinese made scopes and the high end expensive Japanese and European scopes.
Meopta.
They are on sale 16% off usually have free shipping.
Regular $459 and $386 with discount.
It is atleast comparable if not better than the Leupold VX3 for only a fraction of the cost.
It also has a 10 yard focus with useable hold over reticles or with the regular cross hair among other reticle options.
It is so popular this specific model is just about all that's left in stock right now.
https://www.sportoptics.com/meopta-optika-5-4-20-50-1032581.html
A friend compared it to his $1500 Japan made Element Nexus he bought on sale for $1100 and $850 Chinese made Athlon Ares BTR Gen 2 bought on sale for $450 and preferred the Meopta's image quality over the others. The Ares had a 25 yard minimum focus.
I think he paid around $300 for his Meopta from another dealer when it was on sale at a cheaper price.
I want to buy the Athlon Ares ETR if I can find one below $800. He advised me to buy the Meopta Optika 6 version for less than $800 and believes the Ares ETR is way overpriced for a scope made in China.
They are made in the same Chinese scope factory as the Bushnell Forge that they sold for half off retail price.
Looks like there's a 50% price wiggle room.
Still waiting for both of my back ordered Chinese Vector Continental 30 mm and 34 mm I bought for around half price.
They are supposed to have German glass.
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The Ares BTR Gen 2 was never on sale for $450. That was the Gen 1 at Midway a couple of years ago. The Ben 2 has updated glass and a much better erector system. The Ares ETR is absolutely not over priced. The glass is fantastic but more importantly the stainless erector system in that optic tracks almost 100% true through its entire range. There is no other scope in that price range that even remotely compares to it. I actually ended up selling my Razor because of how well the ETR worked in comparison. The Razor cost about $1700 vs the ETR at $1200 (I think I paid closer to $1k at the time). Anyone who thinks the ETR is overpriced needs to be drug tested.
Edit:
I'm not saying the Meopta line is bad by any means for the record. From everything I've heard about them they are decent optics. I just wanted to get the record straight on the other part of your comment.
Edit:
I'm not saying the Meopta line is bad by any means for the record. From everything I've heard about them they are decent optics. I just wanted to get the record straight on the other part of your comment.
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The Ares BTRs I refer to 212006 and 212007 were on sale on Amazon not Midway.
Late 2019 or early 2020 time frame. They were priced half off retail. Could have sworn they were the new Gen 2 models check the model numbers that's what were in my notes.
Apologies if the model numbers aren't the Gen 2s. Thought they were.
I try to document the lowest price trends and whether due to discontinued clearance or not on alot of things to see what kind of profit margins and wiggle room the brands have. Sort of OCD hobby of mine.
My buddy told me to buy in at half off and the 25 yard minimum focus simply prevented me from hitting the buy button.
I just assumed it was a trend coming from the Bushnell Forge factory in China some how resulting in lowering the price.
Then noticed the price went back up and stayed there as opposed to the Bushnell Forge which many models stayed at half off.
Late 2019 or early 2020 time frame. They were priced half off retail. Could have sworn they were the new Gen 2 models check the model numbers that's what were in my notes.
Apologies if the model numbers aren't the Gen 2s. Thought they were.
I try to document the lowest price trends and whether due to discontinued clearance or not on alot of things to see what kind of profit margins and wiggle room the brands have. Sort of OCD hobby of mine.
My buddy told me to buy in at half off and the 25 yard minimum focus simply prevented me from hitting the buy button.
I just assumed it was a trend coming from the Bushnell Forge factory in China some how resulting in lowering the price.
Then noticed the price went back up and stayed there as opposed to the Bushnell Forge which many models stayed at half off.
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The Forges and the Ares went on sale at about the same time. I bought one of each just because they were so cheap. The Forge was a bit of a disappointment to be honest with you, but the Ares at $425 was a damn steal. I should have bought more and even two years later I am still kicking myself over that.
Unless you are shooting Field Target matches, don't worry about the 25yd minimum paralax. On the lower magnification settings (which are likely to be used at close range) the image is plenty sharp. Paralax error in POI will likely be at a minimum anyway if you're an experienced shooter. That being said, obviously 10yd focus is better, but I wouldn't concider it a requirement.
Unless you are shooting Field Target matches, don't worry about the 25yd minimum paralax. On the lower magnification settings (which are likely to be used at close range) the image is plenty sharp. Paralax error in POI will likely be at a minimum anyway if you're an experienced shooter. That being said, obviously 10yd focus is better, but I wouldn't concider it a requirement.
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Personally I prefer mildot style reticles on scopes period. But they're not necessarily needed at shorter ranges. Here's a chart of the approximate trajectory of a 22 Hw77 with a H&N FTT zeroed at 30 yards.
If you can estimate a little holdover you can get by with regular Duplex/ 30/30 reticle if you stay inside of the 40 yards in your OP. Once you go past that it drops off very steeply and a mildot reticle and a rangefinder become more important. Even with a mildot scope that small holdover at 40 yards would be less than a mildot anyway and still requires the same estimation skills.
I have a Hw97 in 177 and I use a 4-12x40 Airmax on it. It's not a leupold but it's plenty sufficient for the range of 14-16 fpe springer. I do shoot my springers out to a hundred yards sometimes. I never hunt those those distances it's pretty much spinners and beer cans at 100yds.
To throw another monkey wrench at you guys. You don't necessarily need side focus or A/0 either. My primary hunting springer is a 177 Hw50 with a straight 4x32 Hawke Vantage mildot scope with a 100yd fixed parallax. I can shoot single round hole 5 shot groups at ten yards in my basement and beer cans at 100yds. It's a little blurry in the dim basement but outside it is very clear at ten / eleven yards. The advantages of this scope is everything in my hunting range 10 to maybe 45 yards is always in focus. I'm not missing a shot on a critter that pops up near or far because my scope is too zoomed in and the AO is set wrong.
The rest of my airguns are primarily target and plinking so they still wear Airmax scopes. The finer reticles, focus and mildots come in handy for finite group shooting and long range shots.
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I actually agree with everything you just said. There is a huge difference between a hunting scope and a target scope. Personally I'd rather use a target scope for hunting but that isn't somemething that everyone prefers. Unless I missed it, I'm still not quite sure what the end goal here is.
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The OP said he was trying to keep it simple and was questioning the necessity of the mildots inside of 40 yards. He said he was going to be using the gun for target and squirrel control out to 40 yards. I was trying to give him a simple option regarding the duplex reticle and fixed parallax.
A good fixed parallax scope on low power should be plenty clear at close ranges where high magnification isn't needed. Unfortunately I can't verify that with a centerfire leupold because they're fixed at 150 yds and I don't own one.
Their rimfire scopes are set at 60 yds so those should be in focus up close on lower powers but may not be robust enough for a springer. A Sportsmatch Dampa mount would be a good insurance plan for those scopes.
Anyway between not needing a mildot reticle or AO, it broadens his scope options tremendously. Well as long as he learns to look down the center of the scope to negate parallax. IMO sometimes simpler better which sounded like his end goal.
Be well Ron
A good fixed parallax scope on low power should be plenty clear at close ranges where high magnification isn't needed. Unfortunately I can't verify that with a centerfire leupold because they're fixed at 150 yds and I don't own one.
Their rimfire scopes are set at 60 yds so those should be in focus up close on lower powers but may not be robust enough for a springer. A Sportsmatch Dampa mount would be a good insurance plan for those scopes.
Anyway between not needing a mildot reticle or AO, it broadens his scope options tremendously. Well as long as he learns to look down the center of the scope to negate parallax. IMO sometimes simpler better which sounded like his end goal.
Be well Ron
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Mycapt65
smgfish
Even the cheapie $50 Cvlife 6-24x50 AO cross bow reticle scope from Amazon would do for hold over once you get the pellet drop estimation right. Just keep it 20x or under magnification and the image is atleast sort of decent. Several folks have used this scope on their springers with success believe it or not.
Sqwirlfugger57
Noticed the half price sales on discontinued or over stock items.
They should come back next upgrade in their model line up or if they are stuck with a huge inventory and need to free up cash.
I saw the Ares ETR 4.5-30x56 priced on line for $849. They must have gotten kicked off Athlon dealer list because I can no longer find that site.
Some other hidden price through other forums to call certain vendors for $800 they aren't allowed to advertise on line for less than a certain price.
Amazon has ups and downs in prices for it in the $999 to $1080 range.
There is always wiggle room to negotiate for better prices just have to call on the phone and ask.
Phone call to save atleast $200 to $400 for a scope might be worth the trouble to a few people who just might want to save money.
Every body selling it for the same listed price.
Going to have some who actually want to give you a reason to buy from them and become their customer for life and tell all your friends who to buy from.
Including some of the sponsors.
smgfish
Even the cheapie $50 Cvlife 6-24x50 AO cross bow reticle scope from Amazon would do for hold over once you get the pellet drop estimation right. Just keep it 20x or under magnification and the image is atleast sort of decent. Several folks have used this scope on their springers with success believe it or not.
Sqwirlfugger57
Noticed the half price sales on discontinued or over stock items.
They should come back next upgrade in their model line up or if they are stuck with a huge inventory and need to free up cash.
I saw the Ares ETR 4.5-30x56 priced on line for $849. They must have gotten kicked off Athlon dealer list because I can no longer find that site.
Some other hidden price through other forums to call certain vendors for $800 they aren't allowed to advertise on line for less than a certain price.
Amazon has ups and downs in prices for it in the $999 to $1080 range.
There is always wiggle room to negotiate for better prices just have to call on the phone and ask.
Phone call to save atleast $200 to $400 for a scope might be worth the trouble to a few people who just might want to save money.
Every body selling it for the same listed price.
Going to have some who actually want to give you a reason to buy from them and become their customer for life and tell all your friends who to buy from.
Including some of the sponsors.
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Batman2
You're a bright guy who's obviously well versed in optics but I think you missed my point. I'm not promoting cheap optics. I'm just letting the OP know there's no need to go down a "rabbit hole" of ranging reticles, expensive and or high power scopes for his short range springer needs. I believe a decent 3-9x40 with a simple duplex reticle would likely meet his <40 yard needs just fine. Depending on his closest range, even the adjustable parallax might be optional with a decent 3-9x40. This and a Dampa mount would open a lot of scope options for him.
I don't want to send him down an unnecessary "rabbit hole" since he's not looking to shoot FT or a thousand yards. I believe there's elegance in functional simplicity.
You're a bright guy who's obviously well versed in optics but I think you missed my point. I'm not promoting cheap optics. I'm just letting the OP know there's no need to go down a "rabbit hole" of ranging reticles, expensive and or high power scopes for his short range springer needs. I believe a decent 3-9x40 with a simple duplex reticle would likely meet his <40 yard needs just fine. Depending on his closest range, even the adjustable parallax might be optional with a decent 3-9x40. This and a Dampa mount would open a lot of scope options for him.
I don't want to send him down an unnecessary "rabbit hole" since he's not looking to shoot FT or a thousand yards. I believe there's elegance in functional simplicity.
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I've seen both the Ares ETR 1-10 and 3-18 version go for well under $1000 a few times. Never the 4.5-30×56 though. $850 is absolutely a steal and would have bought another at that price.
We can sit here and talk about which reticles/scopes are best all day and we would all be right to some extent. There is no right answer here. Different tools for different jobs and whatnot. To be fair on this thread, OP stated he really didn't know there were other options outside of the standard duplex style reticles which means he probably didn't know the option for FFP existed either.
We can sit here and talk about which reticles/scopes are best all day and we would all be right to some extent. There is no right answer here. Different tools for different jobs and whatnot. To be fair on this thread, OP stated he really didn't know there were other options outside of the standard duplex style reticles which means he probably didn't know the option for FFP existed either.
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How close will your closest shots on squirrels be? Shots at twitchy squirrel inside of my rifle's Point Blank Range is where I find holdover points most necessary. I also prefer SFP scopes for this reason, but that's another can of worms.
The chart from the other poster suggested the PBR would start maybe just inside of ten yards. That's probably a good start but you won't know that for sure until you find the pellet that your HW77 shoots best and settle on mounts that determine your scope height.
Regarding focus/parallax, if you'll be practicing at close ranges indoors during the winter I do strongly prefer a scope that focuses close. My basement range is just under 15 yards and I suspect I could get away with a 25 yard minimum focus range scope and dial the magnification down to make those indoor practice sessions more pleasant.
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I guess if the purpose of the thread here is to help the OP, I think we need more information from him. Otherwise we're just extrapolating our preferences and budgets into useless space.
I will change my recommendations to- definitely include a mildot reticle. I didn't catch the 50 yard range added by the OP in a later post. There's a big difference in trajectory between 40 and 50 yards with a 22 caliber Hw77.
I will change my recommendations to- definitely include a mildot reticle. I didn't catch the 50 yard range added by the OP in a later post. There's a big difference in trajectory between 40 and 50 yards with a 22 caliber Hw77.
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Really good information, I appreciate the feedback. The above chart is really helpful. I’m now leaning more to the mil dot with the amount of drop after 30 yards. My guess based on research is the 77 has a realistic ethical killing range of a grey squirrel of about 50 yards. Maybe a bit more. At this point I’m not going to shoot. Much further than that for targets. I like the 77 as a keepsake doing double duty, that’s why the dilemma on scope.
im thinking there will be a lot of compensating with lepould I’m looking at. The Meoptma recommended looks nice, however seems really heavy and pretty long. I wish leupold made their freedom scope in mill dot.
My goals are pretty basic at this point, keep simple, don’t buy junk or low end that will cause me trouble, buy quality that will allow growth without going nuts. Enjoy the experience rather than become frustrated. My closest shots on squirrels will be around 10 yards, and if target shooting would be 20 yards and out. I shoot my pistol at about 12-15 yards.
im thinking there will be a lot of compensating with lepould I’m looking at. The Meoptma recommended looks nice, however seems really heavy and pretty long. I wish leupold made their freedom scope in mill dot.
My goals are pretty basic at this point, keep simple, don’t buy junk or low end that will cause me trouble, buy quality that will allow growth without going nuts. Enjoy the experience rather than become frustrated. My closest shots on squirrels will be around 10 yards, and if target shooting would be 20 yards and out. I shoot my pistol at about 12-15 yards.
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50 yards on squirrels and rabbits is about right. For target shooting, you can definitely stretch that gun out further with a pretty high rate of success once you learn the guns likes and dislikes.
You may have said it already, and I apologize if I missed it, but how much are you willing to spend?
You may have said it already, and I apologize if I missed it, but how much are you willing to spend?
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To me, the most important elements of an air rifle hunting scope in no particular order are...
1) clear, quality glass; this should be a given
2) dependability and durability; again, this should be a given...holds zero like a rock, tracks well, consistent Point of Aim through magnification/parallax adjustment
3) Second Focal Plane; when it get's dark or the game is close and you need low magnification or there is a dark and varied background...all three of which are normal hunting experiences for me, at least; you don't want a first focal plane scope for most hunting scenarios
4) low magnification/wide field of view; there is nothing more frustrating and aggravating than trying to shoot a squirrel that is too close and you can't find it in your scope; my favorite hunting scopes are 1X or 2X on the low end for this reason...3X or 4X are still acceptable
5) parallax adjustment; when shooting at close distances it's very annoying when the parallax/focus is out of wack and it definitely affects accuracy; something that I've found is that low magnification scopes struggle far less with this issue than higher magnification scopes; for example, my Leupold VX-II 1-4x20mm is focused and clear down to about 10' at 1X and 25' at 4X...but is still very clear and focused at all further distances...which brings me to my last element...
6) simplicity; give me a standard or maybe even thicker than average duplex reticle or comparable reticle that is not too busy or distracting; I'm not saying that there is never a use for BDC's or mil hashes/dots or Christmas trees...but in hunting fast acquisition and centering the quarry is paramount; KISS
7) mount it low; this is the least important to me but I think it still is important for several reasons...I hesitate to buy a scope with more than a 44mm objective
This an old post By B.B. Pelletier on pyramydair.com. I find it works perfectly for me out to about 30-35 yards for a dead hold...and it works better if your scope is mounted as low as possible.
"For a pellet gun that shoots around 800 f.p.s., I like to sight in at 20 yards for the near distance. The second distance will be around 30 yards, and the pellet will not rise by as much as one pellet diameter at the in-between distances (between 20 and 30 yards). If you sight in at 15 yards with the same gun, the pellet will be back to the intersection of the crosshairs around 40 yards, and it will rise more than an inch in between.
For a gun that shoots 950 f.p.s., I would still sight-in at 20 yards as the near distance but the far distance is now 37 yards or so. For both guns (800 and 950), the pellet will be about one inch below the aim point at 10 yards and will rise to the crosshairs as it approaches 20 yards. "
1) clear, quality glass; this should be a given
2) dependability and durability; again, this should be a given...holds zero like a rock, tracks well, consistent Point of Aim through magnification/parallax adjustment
3) Second Focal Plane; when it get's dark or the game is close and you need low magnification or there is a dark and varied background...all three of which are normal hunting experiences for me, at least; you don't want a first focal plane scope for most hunting scenarios
4) low magnification/wide field of view; there is nothing more frustrating and aggravating than trying to shoot a squirrel that is too close and you can't find it in your scope; my favorite hunting scopes are 1X or 2X on the low end for this reason...3X or 4X are still acceptable
5) parallax adjustment; when shooting at close distances it's very annoying when the parallax/focus is out of wack and it definitely affects accuracy; something that I've found is that low magnification scopes struggle far less with this issue than higher magnification scopes; for example, my Leupold VX-II 1-4x20mm is focused and clear down to about 10' at 1X and 25' at 4X...but is still very clear and focused at all further distances...which brings me to my last element...
6) simplicity; give me a standard or maybe even thicker than average duplex reticle or comparable reticle that is not too busy or distracting; I'm not saying that there is never a use for BDC's or mil hashes/dots or Christmas trees...but in hunting fast acquisition and centering the quarry is paramount; KISS
7) mount it low; this is the least important to me but I think it still is important for several reasons...I hesitate to buy a scope with more than a 44mm objective
This an old post By B.B. Pelletier on pyramydair.com. I find it works perfectly for me out to about 30-35 yards for a dead hold...and it works better if your scope is mounted as low as possible.
"For a pellet gun that shoots around 800 f.p.s., I like to sight in at 20 yards for the near distance. The second distance will be around 30 yards, and the pellet will not rise by as much as one pellet diameter at the in-between distances (between 20 and 30 yards). If you sight in at 15 yards with the same gun, the pellet will be back to the intersection of the crosshairs around 40 yards, and it will rise more than an inch in between.
For a gun that shoots 950 f.p.s., I would still sight-in at 20 yards as the near distance but the far distance is now 37 yards or so. For both guns (800 and 950), the pellet will be about one inch below the aim point at 10 yards and will rise to the crosshairs as it approaches 20 yards. "
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My budget for scope is about $ 400.00 If the value is there. I have two Lepoulds, two Vortex’s one on a 17wsm and one on Ar for predators. I have a Nikon on in-line. All are solid and never let me down.
The two Lepoulds are on a 3006 and other on 12 gauge 870 Remington slug gun. Both over 20 years old and flawless. Looking for that reliability
The two Lepoulds are on a 3006 and other on 12 gauge 870 Remington slug gun. Both over 20 years old and flawless. Looking for that reliability
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If you serious about wanting to buy a scope that may last 20 or more years without head aches stay clear from Chinese made scopes that are branded by USA companies. Unfortunately these days probably more than 90% are Chinese made.
Buy the Leupold VX Freedom from the place I mentioned earlier for the best price
It is very clear light weight small and probably least likely to break on your spring gun.
Big plus is it won't add much weoght to your heavy HW77 rifle at only 12 oz.
Keep things simple with the standard cross hair reticle you only shooting upto 40 yards and it focus close as just under 5 yards at the maximum 9x and is extremely vivid and bright and clear compared to any other Chinese made scope in that price range.
I have one for an R7 which is similar to the HW30.
Not sure if mine is a fluke but the marking starts at 10 yards on the parallax ring and mine turns below that to about 5 yards.
The velocity and loopy trajectory are similar my 177 R7 compared to your 22 HW77.
I have no issues using the Leupold cross hair between the fine and thicker section to hold over out to 50 yards at any power just know the gun very well.
The only scope I would consider replacing upgrading it with would be the Meopta I mentioned for more magnification.
Once you are used to looking through Leupold glass it's hard to use any thing inferior.
You want to buy the brands that you never hear people parroting how great their warranties are.
That goes to show you the brands that don't break.
The best warranty is the one you will never need to use.
If you decide to buy a Chinese made scope make damn sure it has a no bs life time warranty because you're gonna need it.
Buy the Leupold VX Freedom from the place I mentioned earlier for the best price
It is very clear light weight small and probably least likely to break on your spring gun.
Big plus is it won't add much weoght to your heavy HW77 rifle at only 12 oz.
Keep things simple with the standard cross hair reticle you only shooting upto 40 yards and it focus close as just under 5 yards at the maximum 9x and is extremely vivid and bright and clear compared to any other Chinese made scope in that price range.
I have one for an R7 which is similar to the HW30.
Not sure if mine is a fluke but the marking starts at 10 yards on the parallax ring and mine turns below that to about 5 yards.
The velocity and loopy trajectory are similar my 177 R7 compared to your 22 HW77.
I have no issues using the Leupold cross hair between the fine and thicker section to hold over out to 50 yards at any power just know the gun very well.
The only scope I would consider replacing upgrading it with would be the Meopta I mentioned for more magnification.
Once you are used to looking through Leupold glass it's hard to use any thing inferior.
You want to buy the brands that you never hear people parroting how great their warranties are.
That goes to show you the brands that don't break.
The best warranty is the one you will never need to use.
If you decide to buy a Chinese made scope make damn sure it has a no bs life time warranty because you're gonna need it.
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Actually leaning that way. I keep going back to Leupold and I’m super comfortable with the company.
Last question, the guy at Air Guns of Arizona recommended a two piece set of rings. Someone on this sting recommended the RWS single piece-mount. In my mind the single piece RWS looks solid and more secure then two rings. I have no idea. What would you recommend?
Last question, the guy at Air Guns of Arizona recommended a two piece set of rings. Someone on this sting recommended the RWS single piece-mount. In my mind the single piece RWS looks solid and more secure then two rings. I have no idea. What would you recommend?
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I was the one who recommended the RWS Lock Down 1 piece droop compensating mount.
Why because most air guns exhibit some degree of barrel droop so you won't need to max out your elevation turret on the scope causing stress and degrading your image quality. Many cases actually running out of elevation before zeroing the gun when using higher magnification scopes or scopes that have very limited elevation travel.
Get it in 1 inch or preferable 30 mm then buy the 30 mm to 1 inch insert reducers that won't put a mark on the scope tube.
You can find them for real cheap on eBay. The Hawke brand inserts are way too expensive.
Why because most air guns exhibit some degree of barrel droop so you won't need to max out your elevation turret on the scope causing stress and degrading your image quality. Many cases actually running out of elevation before zeroing the gun when using higher magnification scopes or scopes that have very limited elevation travel.
Get it in 1 inch or preferable 30 mm then buy the 30 mm to 1 inch insert reducers that won't put a mark on the scope tube.
You can find them for real cheap on eBay. The Hawke brand inserts are way too expensive.
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