Rimfire vs PCP

[Guest]

jiikuu

"something really went wrong with you"

Sounds incredibly arrogant and judgemental to me. IMO, you have no right to judge another person based on such information as discussed here.

Hunting is one topic, pest elimination another. And I believe VERY FEW people want to cause suffering, though there is the occasional psychopath out there. That's where the "unnecessary" part comes in. Hunting for food or simply because one enjoys hunting suggests that the person should employ all possible means to make a clean humane kill. Pesting is a different world, eliminating animals causing damage in one form or another. And I still believe that most people doing that will try to make a clean kill, even though elimination of the pest takes precedence for most.

So read again. "Well my moral says causing unnecessary suffering to any animal pest or not pest is not OK. If you think its ok then something really went wrong with you." its 100%:dly dirrected to those few that dosent give a F as long as its injured or dead. Dont cut my words out from content. 

 

[bandg]

I'll stick with arrogant and judgemental, thanks.

 

[thomasair]

The idea is prevalent where I live that you may use any means necessary to kill “pests”. That’s just people’s way of making something unethical sound like it’s not. In our world, might makes right. All you need is enough people to agree with you and something unethical or immoral is made acceptable.

I’ll be honest, I don’t see people that take big chances on “pest” animals by shooting at them from foolish distances in a good light. If that makes me judgmental too...so be it. The arrogance that I see is from guys that shoot at ground squirrels with airguns at 150 plus yards. These same guys go shoot EFT matches with the same guns and miss 70% of their long shots (50-100y) which are 3x as big and half the distance or less of which they claim to ethically hit the ground squirrels. Most people grossly overestimate their ability. That’s arrogance.

The best air rifles are not as accurate as the best 22lr....that’s easily proven. The problem is that most people have no idea how well 22lr are capable of shooting when everything is right. I’m right in the middle of making my best efforts to compete in BR with unlimited class 22lr rimfire rifles, and I have a ways to go yet. I’m aware of nobody else who is any closer. 

Mike 

 

[thomasair]

Here is my best card shot at 50y with my air rifle using 40gr 22 cal slugs to date. My average is around 17x. Sadly, this will not beat most good shooting unlimited class 22lr rimfire guns...although it will beat all the factory guns.

Mike 

 

[MrP]

Z

 

[Glem.Chally]

My cz 455 American is the most accurate gun I own. I don't have a tier 1 airgun like fx or edgun or daystate but it would be pretty hard to beat the groups I get with cci standard velocity. I think it's close to half inch groups at 100 and I have the sporter hunting barrel. It's an amazing gun. Those groups really get larger with bulk ammo tho. Remington still shoots 1 moa. Not bad. My marauder 25 gets a little over 1 moa at 100 when I actually have it running right

Are we talking 10shot groups here? I still havent seen any sub moa 100yd airgun and FX, daystate, edgun etc well if tier1 means best possible.. Those are actually really far from that if you have enough deep pockets you surely can get alot better.

Yes 10 shot groups.

https://youtu.be/_or7jnakYiE

 

[bandg]

The idea is prevalent where I live that you may use any means necessary to kill “pests”. That’s just people’s way of making something unethical sound like it’s not. In our world, might makes right. All you need is enough people to agree with you and something unethical or immoral is made acceptable.

I’ll be honest, I don’t see people that take big chances on “pest” animals by shooting at them from foolish distances in a good light. If that makes me judgmental too...so be it. The arrogance that I see is from guys that shoot at ground squirrels with airguns at 150 plus yards. These same guys go shoot EFT matches with the same guns and miss 70% of their long shots (50-100y) which are 3x as big and half the distance or less of which they claim to ethically hit the ground squirrels. Most people grossly overestimate their ability. That’s arrogance.

The best air rifles are not as accurate as the best 22lr....that’s easily proven. The problem is that most people have no idea how well 22lr are capable of shooting when everything is right. I’m right in the middle of making my best efforts to compete in BR with unlimited class 22lr rimfire rifles, and I have a ways to go yet. I’m aware of nobody else who is any closer. 

Mike

I'll agree with you on the .22 comparison but not most of the rest. Even though you use the phrase "unethical", you didn't suggest that "something went wrong" with those that disagree with you. And apparently there are quite a few who disagree with you (I'm one) based on the first sentence in your post.

I no longer hunt, but a humane kill was always a primary goal. As it should be for anyone. And with pests causing damage, I still try to make a one shot kill but it isn't the primary goal in that case. Elimination of the damaging pest is the primary goal. Preferably with one clean shot but if not, so be it. You disagree and that's fine but at least you note that many others don't agree with you. You can call it unethical and I'll say you are wrong-I call it practical. I wonder how many problem animals you have had to eliminate and, if any, what percentage weren't cleanly killed?

 

[Pale_Rider]

The idea is prevalent where I live that you may use any means necessary to kill “pests”. That’s just people’s way of making something unethical sound like it’s not. In our world, might makes right. All you need is enough people to agree with you and something unethical or immoral is made acceptable.

I’ll be honest, I don’t see people that take big chances on “pest” animals by shooting at them from foolish distances in a good light. If that makes me judgmental too...so be it. The arrogance that I see is from guys that shoot at ground squirrels with airguns at 150 plus yards. These same guys go shoot EFT matches with the same guns and miss 70% of their long shots (50-100y) which are 3x as big and half the distance or less of which they claim to ethically hit the ground squirrels. Most people grossly overestimate their ability. That’s arrogance.

The best air rifles are not as accurate as the best 22lr....that’s easily proven. The problem is that most people have no idea how well 22lr are capable of shooting when everything is right. I’m right in the middle of making my best efforts to compete in BR with unlimited class 22lr rimfire rifles, and I have a ways to go yet. I’m aware of nobody else who is any closer. 

Mike

+1 


It’s about knowing the limitations of the weapon in your hands. Kill zone on a squirrel is 1” and most other pest animals. I’ve yet to see an airgun that can consistently shoot 1” groups at 150 yards.

“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.”

 

[thomasair]

In the last couple years...about 20. From starlings trying to nest in crevices on my house to prairie dogs digging holes in my driveway. None of my shots were further than about 45y. I wounded one starling as it attempted to fly as I shot. I had to finish him on the ground. That bothers me. I realize it doesn’t bother lots of folks. I won’t apologize for caring that I put down pests humanely. Sometimes it takes a while to get the right shot opportunity. I can wait.

Mike 

 

[bandg]

In the last couple years...about 20. From starlings trying to nest in crevices on my house to prairie dogs digging holes in my driveway. None of my shots were further than about 45y. I wounded one starling as it attempted to fly as I shot. I had to finish him on the ground. That bothers me. I realize it doesn’t bother lots of folks. I won’t apologize for caring that I put down pests humanely. Sometimes it takes a while to get the right shot opportunity. I can wait.

Mike

I've eliminated nearly that many squirrels in the past few months. All relative. The statement that "it doesn't bother lots of folks" is overly broad IMO and exactly WHY I disagree with you. It doesn't make me happy to wound anything and I think most people feel that way, but they value eliminating the pest more than it bothers them. That doesn't make them bad people. You say you can wait. Maybe some can't.

 

[JungleShooter]

My friends,

I realize I poked a hornet's nest — with that ethical stuff.  



There are obviously variations in the standards we apply when we use the word "ethical." That's to be expected, and it just hints at deeper underlying values — with some values ranked higher than others.

These are the foundations of why one calls a shot "ethical" and another calls it "unethical."

If you have comments about those values and your personal priority ranking, that would be interesting to discuss.







If that's a bit too hot, maybe we can get back to the question what in your thinking are the differences between hunting and pesting.  

Because I'm still not clear about that one.



Thanks, guys, discussing this (with civility) helps me to learn!

Matthias

 

[Glem.Chally]

Must be a lot of sad faces about anything shot with an arrow as well. Is it unethical to shoot a deer with an arrow then follow the blood trail for a few hundred yards? Were the natives who hunted North America for centuries unethical hunters? What about running them off a cliff?

Matthais the question was answered already. Hunting is for food, pelt etc. Pesting is shooting nuisance animals like sparrows at a dairy farm or rats. Invasive species etc.

In my province theres a list of 10 animals that "can be killed or captured anytime anywhere" in my Province. Those are pests, hunting you need a license for.

 

[Pale_Rider]

Must be a lot of sad faces about anything shot with an arrow as well. Is it unethical to shoot a deer with an arrow then follow the blood trail for a few hundred yards? Were the natives who hunted North America for centuries unethical hunters? What about running them off a cliff?

Matthais the question was answered already. Hunting is for food, pelt etc. Pesting is shooting nuisance animals like sparrows at a dairy farm or rats. Invasive species etc.

In my province theres a list of 10 animals that "can be killed or captured anytime anywhere" in my Province. Those are pests, hunting you need a license for.

They weren’t unethical, the natives used the best weapons that were available to them at that time. I don’t see too many bow hunters using traditional bows to hunt deer now. That’s the beauty of being a human with a higher level consciousness, innovation, and intelligence; we constantly develop things to be better. It doesn’t make sense to hunt with primitive tools in a primitive way when there are much more efficient tools to get the job done. Just like when the Europeans came to the Americas with powder burners, the natives were quick to put down there bow in place of a PB. Personally, I don’t want to track an animal down hundreds of yards so I’ll use the proper tool for the task at hand

 

[JungleShooter]

I saw some of the explanations of how hunting is different from pesting.  



However, what about me eating the pest pigeons I shoot at cow farms (I do) — where they are contaminating the food of the cows? Am I pesting, or hunting?



And I remember my surprise when reading something about "fair chase" and some rules written up by Mr. Crocket (or Cricket?) in some other thread. I wonder, does this play into the disucssion as well?




The not wanting to make an animal suffer needlessly — yeah, I subscribe to that. I just have a slight problem understanding how to really live by that....

You see, a hunting bullet from a high powered powder burner will end life much faster, and thus make the animal suffer less than if I shot the animal with, say: a PB pistol, or a 22 PB, or a blackpowder rufle, or an airgun, or an arrow.

So, the "needlessly suffer" seems to begin at my choice of weapon — and airguns are pretty far down the line.... When hunting deer, if I understand correctly, it is rather common for the deer to run hundreds of yards, slowly bleeding out, especially when using anything "less" than a highpowered powder burner.



And I can't shake the feeling I'm lying to myself when I say, that I don't want to make an animal suffer NEEDessly — because if I really did, I wouldn't shoot an animal for its fur or its meat or the fun of shooting — because I really don't NEED their fur or meat, do I? (Of course, there subsistence hunting, granted.)




I wonder if there are priorities of "needing to kill" (because the animal goes after me or my property) and "wanting to kill" (I go after the animal because I want meat/fur).

➔ Are less than perfect kill shots justified for one more than for the other?

➔ Are arrows, black powder guns, and airguns more justified for one than for the other?





This whole discussion just made me think further.

Thanks, guys, I have a lot to learn yet.



And just for the record — I'm not snowflaking! I will keep shooting animals, I'm just tyring to figure out the ethics of it all.

Peace,

Matthias

 

[Franklink]

Very interesting to read where people draw their personal lines in the sand regarding ethics. What is abhorrent to one individual, say about ethical behavior in a competitive event, is completely acceptable to another. And what is despicable to one individual in terms of removing a pest animal is completely justifiable to another. 

 

[Glem.Chally]

Must be a lot of sad faces about anything shot with an arrow as well. Is it unethical to shoot a deer with an arrow then follow the blood trail for a few hundred yards? Were the natives who hunted North America for centuries unethical hunters? What about running them off a cliff?

Matthais the question was answered already. Hunting is for food, pelt etc. Pesting is shooting nuisance animals like sparrows at a dairy farm or rats. Invasive species etc.

In my province theres a list of 10 animals that "can be killed or captured anytime anywhere" in my Province. Those are pests, hunting you need a license for.

They weren’t unethical, the natives used the best weapons that were available to them at that time. I don’t see too many bow hunters using traditional bows to hunt deer now. That’s the beauty of being a human with a higher level consciousness, innovation, and intelligence; we constantly develop things to be better. It doesn’t make sense to hunt with primitive tools in a primitive way when there are much more efficient tools to get the job done. Just like when the Europeans came to the Americas with powder burners, the natives were quick to put down there bow in place of a PB. Personally, I don’t want to track an animal down hundreds of yards so I’ll use the proper tool for the task at hand

I agree, just making a point that people seem to be ok with shooting a deer then following a blood trail till finding it. But shoot a pigeon and he flies 30y then dies and its unethical. That's all I'm saying, not implying natives hunted unethically. Even a modern bow causes a deer to either drown in it's own blood or bleed out till they run out of gas.

 

[Pale_Rider]

Glem you bring up interesting points. It is true they will run and bleed out regardless of the bow used. The main difference being the compound contraptions that are used by modern man compensate for the lack of skill & strength it took to accurately get a good lung shot with a traditional bow. With a good lung shot that deer would be lucky to get 50 yards from where it was shot. 

 

[Vetmx]

This back and forth really got me thinking. I have dropped comments to guys about why is it ok to shoot animals outside your or your weapons limitations if you declare it a pest. When I’ve had to deal with pests, the first challenge was getting myself in position or setting things up that the distance could be a slight challenge but not outside the scope of where me and my gun are accurate every day all the time. This is not 125+ yards for anybody with an airgun. I don’t care how much of your own kool-aid you’ve been drinking. Until now I felt that even though they are not game animals, I was trying to be ethical. Not as a hunter or a pester but a guy with a gun trying to kill an animal. Then something dawned on me. The coyote. I have such a problem with them on my hunting land in another state that I will put an arrow or bullet in any part of them. I kill quite a few every year and sometimes it’s ugly. The only difference, and it’s not a complete get out of jail free card is this. I pay $13,000 a year for my hunting land. The coyotes are my problem. They are not somebody else’s problem that a guy uses as an excuse for recreational shooting on a “permission”. Either way, I’m sure my membership on the ethics committee has been terminated.

 

[Guest]

Must be a lot of sad faces about anything shot with an arrow as well. Is it unethical to shoot a deer with an arrow then follow the blood trail for a few hundred yards? Were the natives who hunted North America for centuries unethical hunters? What about running them off a cliff?

Matthais the question was answered already. Hunting is for food, pelt etc. Pesting is shooting nuisance animals like sparrows at a dairy farm or rats. Invasive species etc.

In my province theres a list of 10 animals that "can be killed or captured anytime anywhere" in my Province. Those are pests, hunting you need a license for.

Actually I dont consider bow hunting unethical. Well placed archery shot is as deadly as PB. Killing power is different tho. Bow causes massive bleeding on vitals and massive drop in bloodpressure causes unconsciuness rapidly + almost instant shock and if you have hurt your self badly at some point in your life you know you dont feel pain when in shock. If we would be speaking of shooting animals where ever you manage to hit I would consider it to be unethical. Its all about shot placement. I was teached since kid that if you shoot something you make sure its spot on and if you have any doubts you dont take that shot pest or hunting no matter. Ofc ppl can have their way and do w/e as long as its not limited by law but we could keep arguing for ever if its ethical or not.. Those are individual tied things that usually come from home and how you were raised. Yes I consider long range pesting with airguns unethical everytime its so far away wind plays too big role and your environmental changes are enough to cause bad shots and I will always tell ppl not to do it when someone says to do it. I think we can agree we all have two things in common one being bumhole and second being own opinions and Im fairly happy to have my own atleast.

Im out this just aint going anywhere. Peace. 

 

[Glem.Chally]

Must be a lot of sad faces about anything shot with an arrow as well. Is it unethical to shoot a deer with an arrow then follow the blood trail for a few hundred yards? Were the natives who hunted North America for centuries unethical hunters? What about running them off a cliff?

Matthais the question was answered already. Hunting is for food, pelt etc. Pesting is shooting nuisance animals like sparrows at a dairy farm or rats. Invasive species etc.

In my province theres a list of 10 animals that "can be killed or captured anytime anywhere" in my Province. Those are pests, hunting you need a license for.

Actually I dont consider bow hunting unethical. Well placed archery shot is as deadly as PB. Killing power is different tho. Bow causes massive bleeding on vitals and massive drop in bloodpressure causes unconsciuness rapidly + almost instant shock and if you have hurt your self badly at some point in your life you know you dont feel pain when in shock. If we would be speaking of shooting animals where ever you manage to hit I would consider it to be unethical. Its all about shot placement. I was teached since kid that if you shoot something you make sure its spot on and if you have any doubts you dont take that shot pest or hunting no matter. Ofc ppl can have their way and do w/e as long as its not limited by law but we could keep arguing for ever if its ethical or not.. Those are individual tied things that usually come from home and how you were raised. Yes I consider long range pesting with airguns unethical everytime its so far away wind plays too big role and your environmental changes are enough to cause bad shots and I will always tell ppl not to do it when someone says to do it. I think we can agree we all have two things in common one being bumhole and second being own opinions and Im fairly happy to have my own atleast.

Im out this just aint going anywhere. Peace.

Yeah good points there jiikuu I hadnt considered shock.