RAW Rapid RAW airguns = low quality?

[corny]

I would venture to say, this thread has turned into what raw could/should have become. Instead of going the mass production/tactical options route.
Both my raws are highly customized nothing like you would buy off the shelf. And comfortably outshoot the stock gun they originally were shipped as.

 

[Jaxjax]

I would venture to say, this thread has turned into what raw could/should have become. Instead of going the mass production/tactical options route.
Both my raws are highly customized nothing like you would buy off the shelf. And comfortably outshoot the stock gun they originally were shipped as.

Can the RAW .30's be ordered from Martin to shoot 50.15's instead of 44's ?
Joe

 

[corny]

Can the RAW .30's be ordered from Martin to shoot 50.15's instead of 44's ?
Joe

I’m pretty sure Martin can set it up with whatever ammo you prefer.

 

[corny]

Funny…thread keeps show up in front page as “trending”
Hmmmm

 

[Motorhead]

I would venture to say, this thread has turned into what raw could/should have become. Instead of going the mass production/tactical options route.
Both my raws are highly customized nothing like you would buy off the shelf. And comfortably out shoot the stock gun they originally were shipped as.

Could not agree more ...
While a factory "As Delivered" RAW is an excellent machine offering Top shelf Accuracy & Dependability, as with most mechanical devises the fine tuning or replacement to even higher spec parts & pieces can find at times substantial improvements.
Once done & correctly they are IMO a World Class Air Rifle that can perform good as anything made today. Tho takes a talented air smith to tweak it into tip top shape. Sadly not a lot of Top shooters wish to do so & as such has opened the door or the door was always open for Turn Key don't need to tweak & play with AG's such as the THOMAS AIR. But at @ TWICE the cost of the RAW !!
Such is the times we live in ... Fewer skilled tuners or true build enthusiasts and more folks having the $$$$ too just buy what they want & just go shoot it.

 

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Scott,
Without divulging any of your tuning acumen, what (in your mind) are the most critical areas the OEM RAW needs to correct to become a World Class PCP?

Any help is appreciated.

 

[Motorhead]

Calmed down shot cycle and increased efficiency ... Both go hand in hand for accuracy optimization.
I'm mostly speaking of rifles that operate sub 40 fpe and mostly BR & FT set ups at sub 20 fpe.
Most any PCP rifle tuned for Big power is going jump when shot and use lots of air.

 

[SpiralGroove]

Yeah, I’ve made the SSG and TP doughnut for increased efficiency, along with peek regulator seats, poppet and installed a 2mm (thick walls) CFT shroud along with replacing the moderator and butt pad (cosmetic) And re-crowned the barrels.

_________________________________________________________________________
- So far haven’t reduced hammer weight, put in a balanced valve or messed with the trigger.

Also, do you recommend using a higher performing barrel on the gun?
________________________________________________________________________


I will likely never seek to enter competitions and feel I’m the weakest link in my shooting.I‘ve probably put in ten times the time working on the gun vs. shooting.

I only recently got a Athlon 10-40x56 scope for my bad eyes and was able to shoot 1 MOA at 50 & 100 yards, except with the .20 cal @100. This year I started sorting/waxing pellets and closely keeping track of my velocities vs. optimal values. The MOA shooting happened immediately.

sorry for rambling ….. I’m in Covid isolation and it’s driving me crazy.

 

[Motorhead]

Yeah, I’ve made the SSG and TP doughnut for increased efficiency, along with peek regulator seats, poppet and installed a 2mm (thick walls) CFT shroud along with replacing the moderator and butt pad (cosmetic) And re-crowned the barrels.

_________________________________________________________________________
- So far haven’t reduced hammer weight, put in a balanced valve or messed with the trigger.

Also, do you recommend using a higher performing barrel on the gun?
________________________________________________________________________


I will likely never seek to enter competitions and feel I’m the weakest link in my shooting.I‘ve probably put in ten times the time working on the gun vs. shooting.

I only recently got a Athlon 10-40x56 scope for my bad eyes and was able to shoot 1 MOA at 50 & 100 yards, except with the .20 cal @100. This year I started sorting/waxing pellets and closely keeping track of my velocities vs. optimal values. The MOA shooting happened immediately.

sorry for rambling ….. I’m in Covid isolation and it’s driving me crazy.

Trial by FIRE barrel grading & upgrading is VERY common among competitive shooters. ( Self included )

 

[SpiralGroove]

Trial by Fire sounds like a crapshoot … I can count on one hand the barrels I’ve owned which displayed (obvious) superior command vs. the average.

Any barrel recommendations to increase my odds of getting a very good one?

 

[SpiralGroove]

It’s obvious Michael Niksch uses the best barrels available for his custom Thomas airguns.

Maybe this is one of his trade secrets, then again Daystate and the Red Panda seem to have excellent barrels too.

Further, I tend to be pretty cheap in buying accessories for my guns … mostly relying on myself to make improvements instead of buying stuff. It really hurt to spend $500 on an Athlon scope.

 

[Motorhead]

Trial by Fire sounds like a crapshoot … I can count on one hand the barrels I’ve owned which displayed (obvious) superior command vs. the average.

Any barrel recommendations to increase my odds of getting a very good one?

AG Manufacturers who are willing and able to get / have "SPEC" barrels made will offer the most accurate "Out of Box" guns.
Having spoken with some of the Top Shelf AG manufacturers over the years ... Indeed some are utilizing "Per Spec" barrels and appears not the average production barrel most can get there hands on threw regular distribution / sales.

Mike at THOMAS AIR will not sell you a barrel blank that is used in his rifles .. Yet LW offers similar barrels ? *Are Mikes choice versions, or something different ?
Daystate & there ART barrels either ( Except perhaps fully machined & finished for a Daystate )

Just observations .. no proof one way or the other

 

[JW652]

Fwiw, Martin is no longer an indentured servant to Airforce under their sales agreement. All terms and conditions of the transfer to AF have been met.
However, not all is lost. Sandra and Martin still operate their own small shop as AF dealers aswell as a repair facility and custom shop. They can modify and customize no only the products that Martin designed and developed, but also many other brands.

In short, the man who began work at Theoben at age 15 and continued on to become owner of RAW years later, is still in the business but on a more relaxed basis.

AF continues to produce the high quality Rapid series of rifles seamlessly, as a result of the carefully structured transfer of the business over several years. Both parties wanted to make sure that their "premium" airgun product line florish and continue to evolve at the same level of quality. And it appears that it will in AFs capable hands.

 

[SpiralGroove]

AG Manufacturers who are willing and able to get / have "SPEC" barrels made will offer the most accurate "Out of Box" guns.
Having spoken with some of the Top Shelf AG manufacturers over the years ... Indeed some are utilizing "Per Spec" barrels and appears not the average production barrel most can get there hands on threw regular distribution / sales.

Mike at THOMAS AIR will not sell you a barrel blank that is used in his rifles .. Yet LW offers similar barrels ? *Are Mikes choice versions, or something different ?
Daystate & there ART barrels either ( Except perhaps fully machined & finished for a Daystate )

Just observations .. no proof one way or the other

Yeah, now that I think about it, I really don’t need a “match” grade barrel for my type of shooting. My LW‘s are likely more consistent than me … my goals needs to be realizing shot cycle harmony along with a more disciplined shooting technique.

Possible Hammer mods to increase shot cycle harmony:
I likely need a heavier hammer in the .25 cal to shoot 34 grain JSB’s at 900 fps w/o valve mods. Also don’t know if 50-70% lighter hammers will appreciably help shot cycle / increase efficiency in lower calibers. However, I can already get 150 shots per fill if desired….do I really need this? Will dwell be affected/improved that much?

Lastly, I could better perfect my SSG spring tension so that I achieve my optimal velocity exactly on the knee of the curve (95-97% of plateau) thus lowering ES to its minimum. I’m pretty close now, but would like to have all systems in harmony.

One more day of Covid isolation/rambling.

 

[mubhaur]

Yeah, now that I think about it, I really don’t need a “match” grade barrel for my type of shooting. My LW‘s are likely more consistent than me … my goals needs to be realizing shot cycle harmony along with a more disciplined shooting technique.

Possible Hammer mods to increase shot cycle harmony:
I likely need a heavier hammer in the .25 cal to shoot 34 grain JSB’s at 900 fps w/o valve mods. Also don’t know if 50-70% lighter hammers will appreciably help shot cycle / increase efficiency in lower calibers. However, I can already get 150 shots per fill if desired….do I really need this? Will dwell be affected/improved that much?

Lastly, I could better perfect my SSG spring tension so that I achieve my optimal velocity exactly on the knee of the curve (95-97% of plateau) thus lowering ES to its minimum. I’m pretty close now, but would like to have all systems in harmony.

One more day of Covid isolation/rambling.

You are getting 150 shots per fill of standard volume RAW bottle with .25 34 grain pellets at 900 fps ?

Please confirm and share the details.

It must be amazing having that kind of power and so many shots.

Bhaur

 

[SpiralGroove]

You are getting 150 shots per fill of standard volume RAW bottle with .25 34 grain pellets at 900 fps ?

Please confirm and share the details.

It must be amazing having that kind of power and so many shots.

Bhaur

No Bhaur, can get 150+ shots per fill in .22 cal (18.13) JSB’s at 925 fps at 115/120 bar regulator setting with SSG, TP dough nut, peek regulator seats & poppet.

Same set-up in .25 cal. @ 140 bar, plus 20 cc’s extra plenum … using 34 grain JSB give me 65/75 shots at 900/915 fps. Get about 115 shots per fill with MRD’s at @ 950 fps With same set-up. Unfortunately, the MRD’s haven’t shot as accurately?

My bottle gets filled to 250 bar instead of the 230 listed in the brief RAW Manuel.

The 150 shots referenced above was for lower calibers vs. .25 cal.
- Sometimes my writing misses its mark, much the same as my shooting.

What I was trying to say:
In 25 cal. It seems my OEM hammer weight is fine given my mostly OEM valve set-up.
A lesser hammer weight would require more spring tension to get desired 900+ velocity … assuming I didn’t want to make additional valve changes.

In lower calibers (.177, .20 & .22) I already can get 150+ shots per fill, so would reducing hammer weight by 50-70% really help dwell/harmony that much to improve efficiency or is this a superfluous endeaver?

Kirk

 

[SpiralGroove]

Fwiw, Martin is no longer an indentured servant to Airforce under their sales agreement. All terms and conditions of the transfer to AF have been met.
However, not all is lost. Sandra and Martin still operate their own small shop as AF dealers aswell as a repair facility and custom shop. They can modify and customize no only the products that Martin designed and developed, but also many other brands.

In short, the man who began work at Theoben at age 15 and continued on to become owner of RAW years later, is still in the business but on a more relaxed basis.

AF continues to produce the high quality Rapid series of rifles seamlessly, as a result of the carefully structured transfer of the business over several years. Both parties wanted to make sure that their "premium" airgun product line florish and continue to evolve at the same level of quality. And it appears that it will in AFs capable hands.

Yeah JW,
It’s got to be very difficult to find a successor owner for a boutique air rifle businesses like RAW or Thomas air. Matter of fact IDK if anyone could continue Mikes business at its current, high level?

AF certainly requested some changes to the original RAW airguns so they would fit their business model. How many successor owners would have the $$$ to buy out Martin in one lump sum or over time and still have an ongoing income?

It would have been almost unheard of for someone younger, wealthy & skilled as Martin to buy the business and continue everything the same. Think of all the employee who’ve worked for him many years (RAW family) losing their jobs.

So all in all, RAW made the transition very well. DIY air gun tuners have been able to modify AF RAW guns and own/shoot very high quality guns for reasonable prices.

Otherwise Motörhead or Martin can tune to perfection.

 

[nomojo65]

I’ve owned several RAW’s, BM’s and TM’s and HM-x series. The TM-BM series is fantastic just the way they come from Martin. TM’s are solid, very accurate and dependable. Every time I take one out of the safe I don’t worry about where it’s going to shoot, what the cylinder PSI is?, is the battery charged, will it blow a o-ring just before a competition???. They are Timeless, wonderfully built, simple and just plain fun to shoot! I’ve only owned one after AF TM and it shot wonderfully no different than my pre Guns the only difference was my first TM didn’t have the thimble now they all do. (I believe all TM-BM’s are Martin’s true passion and show it)

In this same regard I can’t wait to get my Thomas! Built with passion, perfection and purpose. Buy it knowing it can’t get any better!

The HM-x’s I’ve owned Honestly I’ve been disappointed in the after AF built Guns. The .30 pre AF was fantastic! But who am I to say if it truly had anything to do with the accuracy of that gun, I just might have gotten that “hummer”barrel in that gun?

 

[corny]

I’ve owned several RAW’s, BM’s and TM’s and HM-x series. The TM-BM series is fantastic just the way they come from Martin. TM’s are solid, very accurate and dependable. Every time I take one out of the safe I don’t worry about where it’s going to shoot, what the cylinder PSI is?, is the battery charged, will it blow a o-ring just before a competition???. They are Timeless, wonderfully built, simple and just plain fun to shoot! I’ve only owned one after AF TM and it shot wonderfully no different than my pre Guns the only difference was my first TM didn’t have the thimble now they all do. (I believe all TM-BM’s are Martin’s true passion and show it)

In this same regard I can’t wait to get my Thomas! Built with passion, perfection and purpose. Buy it knowing it can’t get any better!

The HM-x’s I’ve owned Honestly I’ve been disappointed in the after AF built Guns. The .30 pre AF was fantastic! But who am I to say if it truly had anything to do with the accuracy of that gun, might just have been a special barrel?

the 30cal barrels changed. Different manufacturer

 

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Nomojo,
I think the fundamental mechanics of the RAW HM1000x stayed the same throughout their run with either manufacturer.
- Hence, the only things you dislike involve the streamlined stock changes, moderator (mistake) and plastic butt pad - Right?

AF HM1000x, introduced a lighter stock, cheaper butt pad and ghastly moderator.

I can personally say that after taking the stock on my three RAW’s almost 100 times ….. glad I didn’t need to remove the bottle!.

That said I purchased an older styled Walnut stock from Martin.