Rate of F....Failure?

[Espo66]

Hi all,



Pretty new to Airguns, but been around their powdered brethren for a long time. Not sure where my introductory post goes? I won't recite all that again, but a quick summary is that my 19 yr old son and I and a few of his friends have really gotten the bug and have been shooting a bunch the past few months in the backyard. 

We have 2 break-barrels that are pretty rock solid. 

• Winchester X1000
• Stoeger X5

My dad had a Stoeger Break-Barrel, not sure of the model, but it would not cock, I took it apart and part of the spring was broke.This is all previous to recent history.

Purchased these via Amazon before I found Pyramid Air

• Gamo Swarm Magnum - Awesome and reliable
• SIG Sauer MCX - Same as above

Started buying stuff from PA, they have been great, and I know about the 10 shots to $10, but that would have only helped in one of the cases below.

First order;

• Colt NRA Peacemaker 7.5" CO2 Pellet Revolver - DOA, Would not cock, CAM that hold cylinder was misaligned. - Pyramid Air took it back gave refund
• Umarex Legends Cowboy Rifle - Shot well with pellets, Jammed with BBs. Wasn't watching my sons friend closely, not sure what he did, might have been an error on our side. Used a skewer to dislodge, but the rubber grommet in the barrel came out and couldn't get it back in. - PA graciously took it back and send another one.

Next Order;

• Schofield No. 3 Nickel Dual Ammo - Awesome so far
• Dan Wesson 715 2.5" - First day or two shooting it worked great, now it won't stay cocked, will only shoot in double action mode.

Next Order;

• Legends Ace-In-The-Hole - Works good so far "
• SIG Sauer 1911 We The People - Works OK so far, but does jam a lot

So, I've already send 1 pistol and 1 rifle back. I almost feel guilty asking to return the DW 715. Is this par for the course at these price points? Bad luck? I don't want to abuse the return policy, would fix the Dan Wesson if it was something that is an easy fix, but don't want to void the warranty if not. The 1911, I'm hoping is a case of BBs and finding the right ones that the gun "likes"



So I throw this out there to you guys and gals that have been around for a while. Should I learn how to work on these things? ask PA for another RMA? Stay away from some brands? (I really do like the replicas, and plan on buying quite a few more)



Thanks,



Larry

 

[Motorhead]

Learning to work on them is fine and will be a requirement in due time ....

More to the point, if you spend your money on one or two higher quality guns from the start rather than a bunch of entry level guns your overall experience will IMO be much better.



Scott S

 

[bubblerboy64]

Learning to work on them is fine and will be a requirement in due time ....

More to the point, if you spend your money on one or two higher quality guns from the start rather than a bunch of entry level guns your overall experience will IMO be much better.



Scott S

I second that. Air guns are relative to powder burners actually more expensive to achieve the same dependability. You can buy inexpensive but you will notice pretty poor quality and failures plus poor triggers . Have you talked to people at PA. I’d suggest to converse with some one and tell them what your intentions for the guns are. You need to find some quality. Often a good used gun is your best bang for the buck . Talk to the various retail outlets I’ve found them very helpful. In the end you get what you pay for. I found a real nice used gun for my brother in law at Krale for about $250. I think that’s about the minimum you can expect to pay for a decent air gun . Less if you don’t mind some cosmetic defects.

 

[genericAGuser]

Hi Larry. I also prefer the lower end air arms, because if you hang around here long enough, you'll see even the most high end units having issues. I'm a big fan of CO2 and have 4 of the less expensive models: Crosman SBR automatic (3000 plus shots and works very well), Crosman 1077 (worked for 700 shots and then shoots at 1/3 speed, needs repair), Umarex PPK (1000 plus shots and going strong), Crosman CR357 only used with pellets (1000 plus shots and a real accurate and reliable gun). So, I'm 3 for 4 for good luck, which is about what I would expect. I don't think it's wrong to expect that a unit will work for years with regular use with little to no issues, but it's 2019 and... They have a return policy, as long as you're not abusing it, doesn't mean you can't use it multiple times. But I understand about taxing someone's patience too much, so if you're really concerned, spread those purchases around different vendors. I read dozens of reviews, from multiple sources, before I decide on something, so I except that no matter what I might get a defective unit. I think I'm spoiled from the old powder burning days, where a firearm would be perfect for thousands of rounds right out of the box, with cleaning only. Airguns are not the same.

I also have one under barrel spring, a Diana .22 460mag from 2009. It has a few hundred shots through it, and it's awesome. Right out of the box, end of cans at 30 yards, open sites, resting on an electrical box. But it's a $500 gun, so I was expecting a great experience, and that's what I got. I don't know what else to tell you. The Dan and the Lever action were on my list too, they seemed to have pretty good reviews, now I'm glad I didn't.

 

[Espo66]

Thanks for the feedback, guys, to your points and some detail from my side:

Purpose or Intentions - We are mostly just enjoying pinking and target shooting. No intentions of hunting or pest control right now. I "think" I am buying the intended brands for this, no? I mentioned replica's. I do not see many other choices. Anything from 1-$300 seem to be the same players...Over 300, I see a lot of PCP, which we are not into, yet. 

Used - All for it, I buy all hobby (guitar) related stuff used, but I see no equivalent of a "Reverb" for airguns. Just some classified ads on a few forums and not much on ebay, Maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

 

[Mossonarock]

Another good resource to tap into is air gun shows. Then you can pick up, hold and maybe even try shooting some air guns before buying.

A very good entry level rifle is a Beeman R7. I highly recommend it. Its a classic.

Personally, I avoid the replicas. However, Diana makes a high quality Mauser replica called Diana Mauser K98. But its over $400. High quality though. About all that's "replica" about it is the stock. This one is big, heavy, and strong enough to hunt with for sure.

 

[Espo66]

Hi Larry. I also prefer the lower end air arms, because if you hang around here long enough, you'll see even the most high end units having issues. I'm a big fan of CO2 and have 4 of the less expensive models: Crosman SBR automatic (3000 plus shots and works very well), Crosman 1077 (worked for 700 shots and then shoots at 1/3 speed, needs repair), Umarex PPK (1000 plus shots and going strong), Crosman CR357 only used with pellets (1000 plus shots and a real accurate and reliable gun). So, I'm 3 for 4 for good luck, which is about what I would expect. I don't think it's wrong to expect that a unit will work for years with regular use with little to no issues, but it's 2019 and... They have a return policy, as long as you're not abusing it, doesn't mean you can't use it multiple times. But I understand about taxing someone's patience too much, so if you're really concerned, spread those purchases around different vendors. I read dozens of reviews, from multiple sources, before I decide on something, so I except that no matter what I might get a defective unit. I think I'm spoiled from the old powder burning days, where a firearm would be perfect for thousands of rounds right out of the box, with cleaning only. Airguns are not the same.

I also have one under barrel spring, a Diana .22 460mag from 2009. It has a few hundred shots through it, and it's awesome. Right out of the box, end of cans at 30 yards, open sites, resting on an electrical box. But it's a $500 gun, so I was expecting a great experience, and that's what I got. I don't know what else to tell you. The Dan and the Lever action were on my list too, they seemed to have pretty good reviews, now I'm glad I didn't.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I don't want to steer you away from the Lever action cowboy rifle, thing is cool as heck. Same with the others, that catch my fancy, the features and cool factor are incredible. I guess I just wasn't expecting the reliability to be so poor. And I'm not talking about 1000 of rounds, everything I listed was purchased in Sept and October of 2019. 

 

[steve123]

I kinda went through the same thing when myself and some friends started buying the inexpensive BB pistols. 

All 3 Sig MCX's broke in one way or another.

A very cheap Sig 1911 semi auto is still running well, It's the least expensive C02 BB pistol I've bought BTW??!! $45

A broom handle Mauser pistol (full and semi) shook it's barrel loose in 2 mags, I sent it back.

The Colt 45 peacemaker is working fine, I got the pellet version.

The DPMS AR15 full and semi auto lasted 2 seasons and broke first thing last springtime.

The Tangfolio Gold match is a good one, it's made of mostly metal and has been a decent C02 BB gun.

So guess what?? I quit buying these things because most of them are POS's and to be honest it was a silly phase we went through which has passed. 

What I would pay good money for "$500??" is a reliable and accurate 10ftlb-ish PCP semiauto rifle designed to shoot the lead BB's and that was built to last. I could consider getting silly again for such a gun. I did like the concept used for staging BB's in the DPMS AR15 and enjoyed it the most out of all of them.

 

[Espo66]

I kinda went through the same thing when myself and some friends started buying the inexpensive BB pistols. 

All 3 Sig MCX's broke in one way or another.

A very cheap Sig 1911 semi auto is still running well, It's the least expensive C02 BB pistol I've bought BTW??!! $45

A broom handle Mauser pistol (full and semi) shook it's barrel loose in 2 mags, I sent it back.

The Colt 45 peacemaker is working fine, I got the pellet version.

The DPMS AR15 full and semi auto lasted 2 seasons and broke first thing last springtime.

The Tangfolio Gold match is a good one, it's made of mostly metal and has been a decent C02 BB gun.

So guess what?? I quit buying these things because most of them are POS's and to be honest it was a silly phase we went through which has passed. 

What I would pay good money for "$500??" is a reliable and accurate 10ftlb-ish PCP semiauto rifle designed to shoot the lead BB's and that was built to last. I could consider getting silly again for such a gun. I did like the concept used for staging BB's in the DPMS AR15 and enjoyed it the most out of all of them.

Steve,

If what you say is true, that is pretty sad. These are iconic guns that the average person does not get to own. And some are Full/ Auto. I was initially happy they were so affordable, but I would be willing to pay more if that is what it took. They seem to be on the right track, lots of metal parts, some have good triggers, authentic operation and many details in common with the real article. 



As for PCPs, i dunno, maybe I'll be into it down the road. No offense to the PCP crowd, most don't resemble any firearm I ever owned or wanted to own. The cost and hassle of air supply has been a deterrent for me, not so much the cost of the guns themselves. 



I have a Ruger 10/22, single six and security six (.357) - I know they make a 10/22 rifle, happy with the colt peacemaker, maybe the 357 DW. see where I'm going?

I have a .45 1911, and a WWII P38 - would like to have their equivalents in something I can shoot in the backyard



Maybe my approach to the hobby is wrong, form what I gather from the responses, I'm expecting too much and in the "toy" area of the hobby.

 

[Septicdeath]

I only shoot spingers and muiltpumps

I would recommend getting a Benjamin in .22 cal. If you can get a .20 even better. A super reliable rif!e that you will own forever and rarely have a problem.

Another of my personal favorites is the Hatsan 125 in .22 or .25 caliber. Well made powerful and accurate.

You may also consider a American Classic pistol. They are one of the most moddalbe airguns you can own.



https://www.hatsanusa.com/

 

[John "spysir" Blount]

Little personal experience with anything you mention (the pistols).

Have you thought about other old cool look alikes -seems too add to y'all fun- ?

S&W 78 or 79g , find a decent used one and your Son can give it to his Son. The Crosman MKI & II are iconic and again last generations. And in the keeping of being a good "airgun friend" I must recomend the crosman 600! Just do it. You will likely out grim the youngsters, absolute the most fun Co2 pistol ever manufactured yet again ( naturally only buy from a known airgunner) get one in current good working order and it should last years and years. Also perhaps a Crosman 38T yet another heirloom piece of kit.

John



fun with the children is a Crosman 600 , ya buddy

 

[Espo66]

Another good resource to tap into is air gun shows. Then you can pick up, hold and maybe even try shooting some air guns before buying.

A very good entry level rifle is a Beeman R7. I highly recommend it. Its a classic.

Personally, I avoid the replicas. However, Diana makes a high quality Mauser replica called Diana Mauser K98. But its over $400. High quality though. About all that's "replica" about it is the stock. This one is big, heavy, and strong enough to hunt with for sure.

I have my eye on that Mauser. where you see big, heavy, I see cool! 



I've looked at the R7, but mostly, I'm pretty happy with my current break barrels. We really think the Gamo Swarm Magnum is a heck of a gun. Looking more at the CO2 stuff, for instance , I really want to pull the trigger(LOL; PUN) on a 10/22 Pellet rifle

 

[Septicdeath]

I own one of these it's a kick to shoot.

Umarex Legends MP40 

 

[Cherokee140]

I see you say you are into guitars.....you will find in the air gun world you have people that "Play Authentic" and as you are a guitar guy you will get that....the rest of the people here are running to google and then going to come back here to flame me.

If you like the CO2 stuff, and you are new to this (forgive if I glanced over this in another post) but you need to know how to take care of the special needs of CO2 guns....Oil for them, and the correct kind of oil....there are all kinds of home gown formulas out there not just pellgunoil. So keeping the gun lubed up is pretty high on the list on these guns. Not everyone in this hobby needs a $3000 air rifle to shoot tin cans at a max of 25 yards....there is much more fun, and a huge amount of good guns out there in the types of guns you are looking at. I would say the guns you are looking at do the job they are made to do with a slightly higher failure rate over the cork sniffer guns....and that higher failure rate is people not knowing how to care for them. I own several of the guns you talk about, I love the lever gun, but I have the walther version....wanted real wood....looking real hard at the new-ish M1 they have if it was only an M2 it would be home now. These guns are real fun....more fun then they should be.

If I lived in town and shot in my basement this is likely all I would have, why bother with an air gun and have to drive to a range....for me I will just take powder if I have to drive somewhere.....I am lucky enough to open my garage door and have a 400 yard air gun range right there. So I have grown to more powerful guns.

I will say this however the guns I do own, with very few exceptions are guns many in the "in crowd" look down upon as cheap. And in looking at targets these same people post up personally I really don't see much if any difference....usually it is a you think that is amazing.

Do you....enjoy what you enjoy....nothing you have listed is a lower quality gun....they work as designed however they are CO2 and they have needs and one of those needs is oil....I saw a video years ago by Tom Gaylord...one of "the" air gun guys....he said there is no such thing as too much oil.....I subscribe to this and have $30 CO2 air guns that are 10+ years and going fine 1077. These guns will go the long haul they just take care.

 

[steve123]

What makes me shake my head is why don't some of these manufacturers make a superior C02 BB gun that at least lasts 10 years of moderate use instead of designing what amounts to be a flawed design up front.

Like that Broomhandle Mauser for example. The way the barrel and shroud attached to the pistol was absolutely retarded! I bet they could have spent $2-3 dollars more to make the barrel attachment system work right. 

Or that DPMS, the plastic trigger sear wore out near as I could tell, so why not use metal parts instead in this critical area??? Again, the price increase is hardly anything and surely has to be less than having to repair the guns and ship them back.

I mean these manufacturers have to know these are flaws but ship the damn things out anyway???

I just don't get it!

 

[Mossonarock]

"Cork sniffer guns"

HAHAHA!!

I have a collection of Hatsan rifles and I enjoy them a lot! It wasn't till later I decided to get a cork sniffer. And would you believe, I don't shoot the cork sniffers all that much. I still prefer messing around with the Hatsans and my vintage Diana 35. That D35 is a fine 10m basement shooter! But it didn't work when I bought it. Its not for people inexperienced with working on springers.

 

[Cherokee140]

What makes me shake my head is why don't some of these manufacturers make a superior C02 BB gun that at least lasts 10 years of moderate use instead of designing what amounts to be a flawed design up front.

Like that Broomhandle Mauser for example. The way the barrel and shroud attached to the pistol was absolutely retarded! I bet they could have spent $2-3 dollars more to make the barrel attachment system work right. 

Or that DPMS, the plastic trigger sear wore out near as I could tell, so why not use metal parts instead in this critical area??? Again, the price increase is hardly anything and surely has to be less than having to repair the guns and ship them back.

I mean these manufacturers have to know these are flaws but ship the damn things out anyway???

I just don't get it!

I don't have the Mauser so can't comment on that.....however I do have a 1077, and IMHO that is about as cheap as cheap can get....and it is still ticking after 10 years. It does not get shot that much....usually in the winter in the garage to take out green army men at garage distances and it is good for that. It got shot a lot more when my boy was younger and still at home....I know it is 11 years old as he is 21, almost 22 and he got it at 10.

 

[Cherokee140]

"Cork sniffer guns"

HAHAHA!!

I have a collection of Hatsan rifles and I enjoy them a lot! It wasn't till later I decided to get a cork sniffer. And would you believe, I don't shoot the cork sniffers all that much. I still prefer messing around with the Hatsans and my vintage Diana 35. That D35 is a fine 10m basement shooter! But it didn't work when I bought it. Its not for people inexperienced with working on springers.

I don't think of Hatsan as a low end company....It seems you do, and just what does that say.

Hatsan is a middle of the road company IMHO.

You avoid the replica type guns....some people that is all they are interested in, however this is not you by your other statements.

 

[Mossonarock]

You're reading too much into my comment. I like my Hatsans- think about what that says.

 

[steve123]

What makes me shake my head is why don't some of these manufacturers make a superior C02 BB gun that at least lasts 10 years of moderate use instead of designing what amounts to be a flawed design up front.

Like that Broomhandle Mauser for example. The way the barrel and shroud attached to the pistol was absolutely retarded! I bet they could have spent $2-3 dollars more to make the barrel attachment system work right. 

Or that DPMS, the plastic trigger sear wore out near as I could tell, so why not use metal parts instead in this critical area??? Again, the price increase is hardly anything and surely has to be less than having to repair the guns and ship them back.

I mean these manufacturers have to know these are flaws but ship the damn things out anyway???

I just don't get it!

I don't have the Mauser so can't comment on that.....however I do have a 1077, and IMHO that is about as cheap as cheap can get....and it is still ticking after 10 years. It does not get shot that much....usually in the winter in the garage to take out green army men at garage distances and it is good for that. It got shot a lot more when my boy was younger and still at home....I know it is 11 years old as he is 21, almost 22 and he got it at 10.

That's good to know, thanks.

Oh I forgot to mention that the Steel Storm I bought broke as well. IIRC that's how I ended up with the DPMS AR, by returning the SS and paying the difference.

I do have a nice Crosman 600. I bought it used and had it rebuilt, it has worked now for 6 or so years without problem. It's fun because it's a 22 cal semi auto pellet pistol which hits much harder than most of these kind of BB guns.