This was a factory seal new in Feb. this year with only 500 shots on it before replaced with a Vortek seal. It was stored in a small ziplock bag until reinstalled two days ago. I was getting unexplained low shots and flyers with a notable speed decrease. This seal has less than 900 shots total. Removal and installation was done properly. What happened and why did it fail in this manor?
Rapid seal failure.
- Thread starter seven08
- Start date
Oh yeah, good question.
This is the HW 30 mm seal out of the HW 80 .22. I was using the more powerful Vortek spring. I will add that the gun dieseled loud for the first 2 shots. Put a very light film of silicone grease on the outside skirt.
This is the HW 30 mm seal out of the HW 80 .22. I was using the more powerful Vortek spring. I will add that the gun dieseled loud for the first 2 shots. Put a very light film of silicone grease on the outside skirt.
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Probably a partial dry fire. Loose barrel which is typical for a .22 HW leaves no resistance to form the cushion of air at the end of the shot cycle. Poor seal fit from an oversized tube can do the same.
Couple that with the much too heavy Vortek spring and it compounds the issue. For that much spring, you need an excellent sealing gun, and very good sealing pellets. And they are still harsh IMO.
I bought a .22 HW80 once upon a time and it had the same setup and felt like hitting a steel bar against a fence post. The seal suffered the same fate.
And most silicone lube isn't pure silicone, and hence will burn/diesel. And to add, silicone offers almost zero lubrication for metal. About the same as water when any pressure is involved.
New softer spring, like an Air Rifle Headquarters, and seal and tight fitting pellets will make a big difference I think. Lube it with moly paste. Lightly.
Hope you get it straightened out.
Couple that with the much too heavy Vortek spring and it compounds the issue. For that much spring, you need an excellent sealing gun, and very good sealing pellets. And they are still harsh IMO.
I bought a .22 HW80 once upon a time and it had the same setup and felt like hitting a steel bar against a fence post. The seal suffered the same fate.
And most silicone lube isn't pure silicone, and hence will burn/diesel. And to add, silicone offers almost zero lubrication for metal. About the same as water when any pressure is involved.
New softer spring, like an Air Rifle Headquarters, and seal and tight fitting pellets will make a big difference I think. Lube it with moly paste. Lightly.
Hope you get it straightened out.
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LOOKS Old and brittle from age probably sitting for years from the vendor. Send it back for a new one.
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This makes sense to me. You can usually tell how long it has been on the shelf. Also, if I replaced with one of those springs I would probably cut off two layers of the spring to make it less powerful. These guns are designed to run on lower powers. If you make them more powerful, some issues of wear and tear will present themselves. A lot of people rant and rave about these upgrades though, but I think from what I read there is at least an equal amount of disappointment. I would trust the kit in the hands of a professional tuner anytime though. They probably know a few tricks up their sleeves.
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I've pulled seals out of guns from the late 80s and early 90s and they weren't cracked like that.
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Those can be inside the gun for years and years no problem since they're sealed and lubricated but outside even in a baggie it will deteriorate just from sitting due to father time unless it's in a climate free room/environment and vacuum sealed.
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How is it sealed inside the gun if the transfer port and barrel are open? You can shine a flashlight down the muzzle and literally see the seal?
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Its like living in a cave and using plastic items over the years while the new unused plastics are outside sealed in a non air tight baggie. The actual use that prolongs it and lubricates it as well.
I had new seals go bad just by sitting over time while the ones that were installed outlasted them. All purchased at the same time. Bought a vacuum sealer after that.
Same with brand new tires. The ones mounted on my classic car over 10 years were fine and the spare set popped upon installing tore/ripped upon the 10 year mark. Of course everyone knows tires should be dumped after 5 years as a general rule of thumb but I bought 8 tires at once to keep them all matching.
I had new seals go bad just by sitting over time while the ones that were installed outlasted them. All purchased at the same time. Bought a vacuum sealer after that.
Same with brand new tires. The ones mounted on my classic car over 10 years were fine and the spare set popped upon installing tore/ripped upon the 10 year mark. Of course everyone knows tires should be dumped after 5 years as a general rule of thumb but I bought 8 tires at once to keep them all matching.
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I’ve heard of them getting ruined from inactivity. The bag issue Yo brought up is half correct in my opinion. If you have oiled it with some silicone grease (or factory equivalent) and have it in an airtight bag or the bag has a desiccant inside I don’t think it will deteriorate unless there is UV radiation. UV light can break down plastics/rubbers pretty easily. Idk though, I’d like to see what others think. This is a good debate.
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This photo was from last week. The worn Vortek seal has 8500 shots on it. A new one is on the left. The gun is apart right now. Tomorrow I will trash that short Vortek spring along with my leather spacer. I will install the new warranty replacement spring with the new seal. I use HN 5.54 FTT's only. Great info so far, thanks.
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I'd agree with Yo. It appears that oxidation has made it brittle. Bob, You didn't use any aerosol spray electric contact cleaner did you ? That stuff is very hard on plastics, nylon, etc.
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So if y'all think the seal is deteriorated from being "exposed" let me ask you this:
Why is it cracked at it's thickest part that doesn't stretch, but not cracked on the retaining lip where you have to pry it off with a screwdriver, and it has to stretch considerably to do so? If it was brittle don't you think that it would have shown some kind of stress there?
Take a look at the used Vortek seal. They are made from a very tough urethane, much harder than the original. See that little ridge around the lip? That's from slamming into the end if the tube, and that ring is from the seal getting hammered into the gap between the end plug and compression tube walls. And it's clearly scorched in the center. Another thing is the fact that the ridge is in the center of the lip edge hints that the tube may be bellmouthed. Otherwise, that ridge should be on the very outside edge of the lip, or not visible at all.
I have Maccari seals made from the same material with thousands of shots that look absolutely fine. But they haven't been oversprung or dieseling. But they have been laying around on a workbench with exposure to the sun for months before they were installed.
Oh, and my shop is not under a vacuum. Just regular atmosphere and poopty Alabama summer weather
Why is it cracked at it's thickest part that doesn't stretch, but not cracked on the retaining lip where you have to pry it off with a screwdriver, and it has to stretch considerably to do so? If it was brittle don't you think that it would have shown some kind of stress there?
Take a look at the used Vortek seal. They are made from a very tough urethane, much harder than the original. See that little ridge around the lip? That's from slamming into the end if the tube, and that ring is from the seal getting hammered into the gap between the end plug and compression tube walls. And it's clearly scorched in the center. Another thing is the fact that the ridge is in the center of the lip edge hints that the tube may be bellmouthed. Otherwise, that ridge should be on the very outside edge of the lip, or not visible at all.
I have Maccari seals made from the same material with thousands of shots that look absolutely fine. But they haven't been oversprung or dieseling. But they have been laying around on a workbench with exposure to the sun for months before they were installed.
Oh, and my shop is not under a vacuum. Just regular atmosphere and poopty Alabama summer weather
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thumper's theory makes the most sense to me. The erosion in the center of the Vortek seal looks like scorching - like the temps are getting too high and vaporizing just a tiny bit of the seal with each shot, which suggests it's oversprung. The OE seal, on the other hand, is flat, leaving no lip to absorb any impact at the end of the compression stroke, so the flat surface would impact instead and destroy the seal in short order, before significant scorching damage would become evident.
What kind of FPE was this making? I've got two .22 HW80's, both tuned. One is a Huntington Beach era R1, the other is a goldfinger carbine. Both make about 19 - 19.5 fpe with FTT's. A lot of guys try to squeeze 20+ out of them, but I do think they tend to suffer from out-of-spec tubes in many cases, making that difficult, if not impossible.
My two cents is if the rifle in question was making more than 19 fpe, take a little spring out of it and see what happens. Might solve the problem and wouldn't be surprised if power stayed the same or even improved slightly.
What kind of FPE was this making? I've got two .22 HW80's, both tuned. One is a Huntington Beach era R1, the other is a goldfinger carbine. Both make about 19 - 19.5 fpe with FTT's. A lot of guys try to squeeze 20+ out of them, but I do think they tend to suffer from out-of-spec tubes in many cases, making that difficult, if not impossible.
My two cents is if the rifle in question was making more than 19 fpe, take a little spring out of it and see what happens. Might solve the problem and wouldn't be surprised if power stayed the same or even improved slightly.
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First, thanks for all the input from the seasoned pros here on this great website.
thumper...your "steel bar" description is what the last 30 or so shots felt like. Glad I took a look inside.
Beeman22..your thoughts about the OE seal makes sense to me. I have no chrono but lets just say that pellet was much faster than out of the box performance.
No solvents were ever used on the HW seal and it remains pliable. Sprung right back to shape when released from the pliers. Just plain old too much spring force from that Vortek for this design and material seal.
I just finished up installing the new correct coil count Vortek spring with new Vortek seal. Will go out for some "break in" when the wind stops. As reported before the exact previous "power plant" lasted for 6000 shots before the spring broke. I'll get another order of these parts in to Vortek today. Done.
thumper...your "steel bar" description is what the last 30 or so shots felt like. Glad I took a look inside.
Beeman22..your thoughts about the OE seal makes sense to me. I have no chrono but lets just say that pellet was much faster than out of the box performance.
No solvents were ever used on the HW seal and it remains pliable. Sprung right back to shape when released from the pliers. Just plain old too much spring force from that Vortek for this design and material seal.
I just finished up installing the new correct coil count Vortek spring with new Vortek seal. Will go out for some "break in" when the wind stops. As reported before the exact previous "power plant" lasted for 6000 shots before the spring broke. I'll get another order of these parts in to Vortek today. Done.
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Hope you get her fixed up and stacking them soon.
I bet turning it down just a fuzz will make a world of improvement. Have fun.
I bet turning it down just a fuzz will make a world of improvement. Have fun.
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