Pure competition pcp like TM1000 and Thomas don't use LDC. WHY?

[mubhaur]

I have noticed that high end competition PCP guns are used without LDC.

This leads to the thinking that the accuracy is better without LDC, Sppressor etc.

Some argue that suppressor helps accuracy as the baffles restrict the air following the pellet. 

I need your take on it my friends. 

Umair Bhaur 

 

[DonC]

Alan Zasdney sold me a Anshutz 2002 with very very quiet suppressor years ago. He later suggested and fitted it with a louder air stripper. This completely eliminated the minor muzzle flip and improved accuracy. This suggests that too much suppression is not good. I have not tested my Field Target 2002 with just a naked barrel..

 

[qball]

Most competition guns are low in power, 20 or 12 FPE limit so they aren’t really loud to begin with and most competitions are held outside so it’s really not that bothersome. An air stripper does improve accuracy in some cases so that’s used instead of a moderator some times. basically they don’t need moderators so eliminated as a variable.


that’s my theory anyways. 

 

[Michael]

My theory is that when using a moderator the air is redirected back into the moderator/shroud which causes turbulence. Back when I was competing I did not use a moderator because my airgun was more accurate without it. 

Even better than the use of no moderator, would be the use of an air stripper with no moderator. Which essentially removes the turbulent air from in front of and behind the projectile.

Unfortunately sound moderation is a very appealing part of airgunning (at least for most people

-Michael

 

[Centercut]

That's an interesting question. The Red Wolf isn't a bare barrel, so it still had a shroud, although not a very effective one. Some moderators like the STO Falx have an air stripper as the first stage of the moderator prior to the Tesla Gas Diode arrangement for quieting. My own .22 Red Wolf HP is actually more accurate with the ZeroDb moderator than without it... So I think its up to the shooter to experiment and see what works best for their particular situation. Also sometimes a moderator is required to quiet the gun where you are shooting (back yard, or next to a horse corral for example)...

 

[elh0102]

It's totally rifle specific. Anything you hang on the barrel affects tuning. You just have to do some testing. Other things equal, simpler is always better.

 

[Motorhead]

Yes ... any devise ( within reason & personal application ) that contain the air exiting behind a pellet creates the potential for the air to overtake the pellet while in this containment space & therefore potentially destabilizing the pellet.

Greater the valves DWELL and larger the volume of air leaving barrel after pellet the WORSE this potential elevates. In this same thought ... more air that comes out after a pellet exits LOUDER will be the muzzle report .. poop !!

So ... "Power" or caliber are not IMO really the root cause LDC's & Moderators get used to the degree we see today .... It is a very large crutch for a PCP's state of tune inefficiencies that we see them. Do they "HELP" with accuracy ( Shrouds or LDC's ) generally no they don't with the exception of supporting flimsy barrels or other barrel whip or harmonics issues.





TARGET / COMPETITION guns ... Huh ?

Bench rest is such a PURE accuracy sport that for most a Bare barrel of larger diameter gives the best accuracy.

If said guns has a large air blast a Stripper may be fitted to peel away that air and help maintain greatest pellet stability potential.

Field target is not a lot different, but with competitors sitting and shooting in close proximity a LOUD rifle is very annoying as well distracting to others. Thus we generally see noise mitigation of some sort being used by most.



Scott S

 

[thomasair]

I don’t use them on bench guns because they are not as accurate. Although a good setup might get close….close is not as good as better. I’ve seen plenty of types of moderators shoot 95% good shots and then throw some really bad fliers. Without the mod…that tendency goes away. On FT guns….you can get away with a lot more because the kzs are pretty big and the game is much more shooter involved so you really can’t see the difference.

These days….quiet is the new accurate.

Mike

 

[2L8]

How do "harmonics" play into this equation? The variables that each suppressor design has on an individual gun, it's configuration, tune, Etc... seem to pose unique outcomes. Scott mentioned "Larger barrel diameter" as a solution and Mike says "Less fliers" without. 

Patrick

 

[Motorhead]

Not a solution ... just a fact where bigger ( in diameter ) is better. Powder guns use and follow similar traits.

 

[Xbowsniper]

Probably why a good number of thinner match grade airgun barrels benefit from having a carbon fiber or similar sleeve epoxied/bonded to the barrel. Still relatively thin, but has stiff properties like a massive bull barrel from a long range Target or rail gun.

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 

Fieldtargettech.com 

 

[2L8]

Not a solution ... just a fact where bigger ( in diameter ) is better. Powder guns use and follow similar traits.

Point made. Thanks Scott.

Patrick

 

[mubhaur]

Thank you friends for sharing your opinions.

Any more are also awaited.

Bhaur 

 

[bigHUN]

First of all we in Canada cannot use any sound volume/frequency altering device whatever those you can call, just with any guns.

I have spent some time (and couple tins of pellets) dedicating my attention to air strippers, at a gun range, sitting with my Bench in peace and quiet and shoot rings.

I have tree air strippers and I can say these have different personalities. I can see the groups opens up or shrink or rotates around some imaginary center with using and without using an air stripper.

I am a firm believer that air strippers shrink the group size in a (pictorially) same way as you did your barrel/liner indexing.

But don't expect you just buy one of the shelf and it will work, no, you need to spend some lead to tune it. I would say shooting 70-100 meters the airstripper sweetspot could be found within some 50 shots.

 

[nomojo65]

I like these Topics and conversations, From my own experience I haven’t seen any definitive accuracy gains from tuner’s or moderator’s on my 20ftlb guns and I’ve done a lot of testing in pretty controled condition’s. (many tins of different weights and manufacturers of pellets! 2 months worth this winter)

I have seen great results one session of testing with a tuner then turn around and that same session have totally different results with the same criteria in place?

I do have more confidence in my score’s and groups when I don’t introduce more variables to the equation.

Bottom line for me, my time is better spent learning how to understand what my flags are telling me about the conditions I’m shooting in!

Want to add a solid barrel sleeved or not is the only way to dependable, repeatable accuracy especially with tuner’s IMO.

 

[nomojo65]

MUFFLER GONE!, carbon sleeve gone, 1//2x20 adapter on, may or may not put new carbon fiber sleeve on? Now can use with Moderator or a tuner in place. (Switch back and forth in 5 min.)

 

[mubhaur]

Improvement in accuracy?

 

[thomasair]

The gain that he may see will unlikely be observable in the short term…although it’s possible. BR is a long term game. In every complex system, the absolute least number of parts to do the task properly is the best. A moderator serves absolutely no purpose in BR. You don’t get extra points for your sound level. It’s extra parts and since it’s job is to contain pressure where there should be none….it will most certainly cause a problem at some point. Those that claim better or equal accuracy by using a mod are likely experiencing a benefit from its weight influence alone. Many guns can benefit from some muzzle weight….although you can also alter muzzle exit timing other ways with air rifles….like a simple velocity change.

You will often hear that someone lowered or raised their velocity and their gun improved. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the particular pellet being shot “likes” that particular velocity. That’s a massive oversimplification and completely takes out the entire rifle system from the equation.

I doubt any intelligent person ever said they came up with a great idea about improving accuracy that involved trapping turbulent air around a projectile recently freed from the barrel bore.

Mike 

 

[nomojo65]

Like Mike said to early to tell, will require much more testing. I have only shot one day since and didn’t see anything special other than point of impact change. I am buying a Donny FL. Just so my neighbors don’t complain, if it improves accuracy any? just a bonus!

 

[2L8]

The gain that he may see will unlikely be observable in the short term…although it’s possible. BR is a long term game. In every complex system, the absolute least number of parts to do the task properly is the best. A moderator serves absolutely no purpose in BR. You don’t get extra points for your sound level. It’s extra parts and since it’s job is to contain pressure where there should be none….it will most certainly cause a problem at some point. Those that claim better or equal accuracy by using a mod are likely experiencing a benefit from its weight influence alone. Many guns can benefit from some muzzle weight….although you can also alter muzzle exit timing other ways with air rifles….like a simple velocity change.

You will often hear that someone lowered or raised their velocity and their gun improved. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the particular pellet being shot “likes” that particular velocity. That’s a massive oversimplification and completely takes out the entire rifle system from the equation.

I doubt any intelligent person ever said they came up with a great idea about improving accuracy that involved trapping turbulent air around a projectile recently freed from the barrel bore.

Mike

Mike touched again on my earlier point of harmonics with "weight" and "velocity" changes, therefore, influencing a harmonic node. It seems we are searching for a harmonic balance with the entire rifle system as a whole, the sum of the parts. Any one single piece of the system, either added , taken away or adjusted can alter the balance away from or closer to a more accurate rifle. The human factor is part of the system as well. Am I missing something?

@nomojo65 has an interesting point: "I do have more confidence in my score’s and groups when I don’t introduce more variables to the equation."

Always learning.

Patrick