Psi/bar, and what pressure to charge my PCP rifles to?

Ok, its time to admit my ignorance. Im an old guy with a background of firearms and conventional air rifles, but when it comes to using my compressor to charge my newish PCP rifles I don’t feel comfortable. Factory limits vary from 2000psi to 4350psi for each rifle, and then the bar measurement comes into play that I find no reason for. Making it all the more confusing each rifle has a different gauge and redline that doesn't seem to correspond to their factory recommendations, some have no redline at all. To focus only on two rifles my Benjamin Cayden claims a pressure limit of 3000psi, while my Air Venturi Avenger claims 4350psi max. My question is; are these numbers that the lawyers have set or are there optimum pressures that exceed the factory limits? What pressure are you charging these rifles to? Ill stop asking questions here and hope for intelligent responses from those with experience.

Many thanks,

Tom


 
Those are the maximum fill pressure that you should use.Just remember that the Cayden doesn’t have a regulator on it so your feet per second is going to have a bell curve with the highest being in the middle of the fill Pressure. I don’t own an avenger but that sounds right on the fill pressure. And it does have a regulator so if the regulator is set at say 140 bar, then when you get to 140 bar pressure on your gauge your feet per second is going to drop quickly. Gauges are either measured in bars or psi. You don’t have to fill to the maximum fill pressure either, but just remember you won’t get as many shots. All gauges can vary from rifle to rifle on how accurate they are. Most of my guns go to 3000 psi. So to be on the safe side I’ll fill them up to 2900 psi. If your gauge doesn’t have a redline, don’t worry about it just keep an eye on the numbers on the gauge. And if my gauge on my compressor doesn’t match What’s on my gun, I’ll just go buy the one that reaches 2900 first. There will be people that will probably do things differently but I’ll do it this way for safety reasons. 
 
Thanks Ripper,

2900psi is what I have been using for the reasons you mention, and 4200psi on the Avenger. But I don’t understand why the difference between the two, and others. While some are regulated and adjustable and some are not, I get the shots per fill ratio and drop off using the psi. But I don’t understand the wide swing in recommended fill pressure.

Tom
 
The Avenger is built to be a disposable consumable gun just like certain Chinese compressors. After its one year warranty is over and it breaks its expected to be thrown into the trash-dumpster and the airgunner is then expected to just buy another new one. That's why my take on such ridiculously high fill pressure common sense would say dont fill past 3500psi. It's NOT a $1000+ tough built Russian Ataman nor an $1800 Huben with titanium air tube that have the engineering and cost associated which warrants overfilling the guns past 3500psi.

What kind of high pressure safety engineering can be done for a gun that retails for only $299-? It probably only cost AV less than $100 apiece straight from China.

I would personally only fill it to no more than 3000psi if I wanted it to last regardless of regulator because it's common sense when stressing the input side of the regulator above 3000psi things eventually get screwed up. Look at Master Earnest Rowe for example who doesn't even fill his own personal target grade FX Impact past 2800psi that's gotta say something.
 
It’s just that different gun manufacturers make Air cylinders With different sizes so it can either make your gun lighter And streamline looking or bigger air cylinders so you can get more shots per Fill. They try to satisfy different types of customers of their needs or preferences. I prefer the smaller tubes because they just look better on the gun. But I can understand some people wanting the bigger tanks because they might go hunting all day and make sure they have plenty of shots. 
 
Thanks to Ripper and Odoyle for your information,



I also prefer the smaller tubes even though they must be filled more frequently, aesthetically they are satisfying and in the end do the same thing without looking gangly. As I am an old gun collector with a new interest I thirst for knowledge and welcome all thoughts and experience. Fancy walnut stocks always invite me to improve on them and somehow make the shooting experience better.

I also have PCP rifles with bottles rather than tubes and the factory psi fill limits do not seem to reflect any difference from the tube type even though the cc capacity may be more than double. I am still left wondering just why the pressure limit swings so widely between different brands.

Odoyle, I truly understand the cost vs quality aspect. But even though my Avenger 25cal rifle only cost $279 it must be said that it functions great, and after bore lapping is extremely accurate with great adjustability, velocity, and impact. However my original question still remains unanswered after your sensible opinions that I share; Just why is there such a great difference in the psi limits from various manufacturers swinging from 2000psi to 4300psi? Are they all capable of the same psi fills and have the lawyers set the limits? So far I don’t get it and want to learn.

Thanks,

Tom


 
The swing in pressure is by design. Some guns are simply designed by the manufacturer to operate at lower pressures which is less expensive to do while others are designed to operate at higher pressures. The guns that operate at higher pressures get more shots per fill, and are often more powerful as well, both of which are great selling points for sure. 

It's all about what will sell a gun in a specific price range in the market best. Higher pressure, larger reservoir, multi shot, lever action, semi-auto, higher velocity all of these sell guns.
 
Chinese factories are all about the money and don't need lawyers so they can set them as high as they want.

It's a marketing thing to sell the gun higher fill pressure to get more shots at the nonsensical China factory set ridiculously high starting regular set point straight from the factory that will likely make the poppet valve seat short lived. The higher than normal start fill pressure over 4300psi is a ploy to justify nonsensical high starting regulator pressure so end users at least get a decent amount of shots. Such high factory reg setting is only to weaken the weakest failure point on the gun (which has no factory replacement part# BTW) and definotely not by savy engineering brains for longevity behind the gun. They are ripping either the end consumer or AV who imports them.
 
Thanks Odoyle,

You seem to have knowledge and understanding that I seek regarding PCP rifles and I appreciate your input. Like with my earlier Brittish Webley springers I intend to acquire the fine ones to hold for the future that are offered now and enjoy them in the process. I have a fine firearms collection from many years to be enveyed and hope to ad the correct PCP rifles for the future as well as shooting them. While appreciating the fine ones it must also be said just how well the Chinese made Air Venturi Avenger has performed for me. My only disappointment so far has been with the bbl shroud system with added suppression stacks, as no matter what I have tried it just wont quiet down to where I want it to be like a can does on a threaded bbl. Otherwise I can’t find a better way to spend around $300, and with all my other rifles I keep coming back to this one for all around satisfaction. Give it a try and see what you think.

Otherwise I still seek facts on pressures.

Tom
 
As others have said, you should probably stick to the recommended maximum fill pressure. The air cylinders and bottles are tested at higher pressures, but the other components of the rifle may be over stressed at those pressures. Given the wide range of countries of origin, materials used, etc., the regulatory issues would be confusing, I'm sure. Disregarding the pressure limit is not worth the risk, either in terms of safety, or the longevity of valves, seals, regulators, etc. 
 
MSWP (Manufacturer Safe Working Pressure) as the good gentleman above suggested.

Just realize these high pressure fills, valve/hammer weight/spring set up are for the sake of a shot count. That's great for anyone who wants to walk and hunt, compete, as per the rules you can't be tethered.

For me & a few others shooting with a step down in-line reg is the way to go. I'm just pointing out the relevance to your question on what pressure to fill to & why.

I had a rifle come set for sending 36 grain FB NSA slugs at 900fps on a 3K fill. Worked great. But I soon discovered I could get a lot more power from utilizing my step down in-line reg and running a much lighter hammer that didn't drag at all on a 2300psi fill.

I further discovered that my 28 grain RBT Griffin slugs that were going 1080fps jumped to an amazing 1175fps when shooting over my chronograph and pressure fell below 2150psi. Well, I heard it crack & chronograph confirmed it.
It's all in the settings but; I now have a much more consistent rig that doesn't need to beat the ever loving heck out of my valve and I can potentially get more than I wanted, (I don't ever want to go above subsonic) I now know I can definitely put the 27" 1:8 on her & do some direct comparisons of the Griffin 50-65 grain 4S .22's against the 50-65 grain RBT Griffin .257's 

So the point is higher pressure isn't what it always takes to get more. Hope that helps you & shoot safe
 
Minor point: get used to thinking in bar - it's the 'lingua franca' of the airgun world. I resisted for quite a while, and it didn't do me any good...

Most of my guns are 300 bar. I usually fill to 250 bar. This might be easier on the gun, but it also means I can get more fills at a consistent starting pressure before having to top-up the tank. I've also added green and red bars to my gauges for *my* fill level (green) and that gun's max (red) - I cut up the semi-transparent 'post-it' bookmarks, to make them then cover them with tape. Helps with my failing memory and my failing eyes...

GsT
 
Each gun has a different fill pressure. Not sure why you are comparing a benjamin gun to a avenger. They are totally different guns with totally different fill pressure. The pressure is set by the manufacturer for the sage working pressure of the gun they made. As for psi vs bar. Usa use psi, Europe use bars. They do 1 job, that is tell you what pressure your tank is. 
 
It's just an opinion but by education I am a mechanical engineer, if it matters. I am also new to PCPs, I purchased my first one last year, a Prod (Benjamin Marauder Pistol). My second was purchased this year, a 25 caliber Avenger. I sent the Avenger in for a warranty repair for leaking but it is back and functioning well now.

I think the pressure difference in guns is a bit like asking why some cars have bigger gas tanks. It's a somewhat arbitrary choice of the designer. I suspect the Avenger designers wanted to have a reasonably high shot count on an air rifle that can shoot at 50+ fpe. Without a big tank. So they designed it to work at higher pressure. I would not assume that it is just how much risk Air Venturi is will to take versus Benjamin. I think it is better to assume there are real engineering reasons for the differences. There may be a difference in the factor of safety - the difference between the calculated or tested failure point and the working pressure - but that may also not even be different. No sane person would let you fill to 4000+ without a basis that the gun would not come apart until some much higher pressure - that is the factor of safety. A 3,000 gun should not fail until much above 3,000 too. But you don't want to just jack the fill pressure up and see what will happen. When it fails, there could be pieces of metal coming off at high velocity and it one comes in your direction it wouldn't be pretty. I fill my Avenger to 3500 psi not because I am worried it will come apart at 4350 but because I think the poppet may start leaking again and I would rather delay that. It isn't a poorly made or designed gun IMHO but it was made to a rather low price point, especially for the features. Mine shoots 1/4 inch groups at 33 yards with pellets it likes.

BAR versus psi is like metric versus imperial dimensions. They both work. But depending on where we live and what we grew up with we like one system instead of the other. If you remember that atmospheric pressure is a little over 14 psi, you can convert. 1 BAR is almost but not quite 1 times atmospheric pressure. So 300 BAR is almost 14x300. 

Fill pressure on an unregulated gun is often best set lower than the working pressure. At the stock tune, filling my Prod to 3000 psi was asking for lower velocity. It needs the hammer spring pressure increased and possibly the transfer port diameter increased to use 3,000 psi. I shot a string to figure this out and then I knew to fill to 2500. It's just a matter of looking to see when the velocity gets up near maximum for the hammer spring setting and then filling to that point. With a regulator, you don't need to do this. The velocity is a function of the regulator setting and the hammer spring pressure. But mostly the regulator. The hammer spring is more of a fine tuning tool in this case. For example my Avenger is set to a regulator pressure of 2400 psi and I found that increasing the hammer spring tension 1.5 turns in did not increase my velocity at all versus 1 turn but it cut my group size about in half (from 1/2 inch or so at 33 yards to 1/4 inch or so). I only got about 5 fps more at 1 or 1.5 turns in than I did set to the minimum hammer spring setting. So mainly I set the regulator based on the velocity I want then vary the hammer spring to fine tune velocity but also looking at accuracy. If you just want maximum shot count and don't think it will hurt the poppet, there is no reason not to charge the Avenger to 300 BAR.
 
The Avenger is built to be a disposable consumable gun just like certain Chinese compressors. After its one year warranty is over and it breaks its expected to be thrown into the trash-dumpster and the airgunner is then expected to just buy another new one. That's why my take on such ridiculously high fill pressure common sense would say dont fill past 3500psi. It's NOT a $1000+ tough built Russian Ataman nor an $1800 Huben with titanium air tube that have the engineering and cost associated which warrants overfilling the guns past 3500psi.

What kind of high pressure safety engineering can be done for a gun that retails for only $299-? It probably only cost AV less than $100 apiece straight from China.

I would personally only fill it to no more than 3000psi if I wanted it to last regardless of regulator because it's common sense when stressing the input side of the regulator above 3000psi things eventually get screwed up. Look at Master Earnest Rowe for example who doesn't even fill his own personal target grade FX Impact past 2800psi that's gotta say something.


I just found out that PA is selling a replacement poppet and valve for the avenger and the poppet is made of delrin.
 
Safe pressures are engineered into the parts. The materials used dictate if a higher pressure can be used. Nobody wants someone injured from a malfunction on an air gun. That would cost money. That said I dont fill my 4250psi guns to their max. It's a pure laziness. I fill my unregulated guns to the top of the curve which is almost never 3000psi. OP you will find what works for you. I put a red line on my bar gauges where 3000psi is and go from there.
 
Safe pressures are engineered into the parts. The m aterials used dictate if a higher pressure can be used. Nobody wants someone injured from a malfunction on an air gun. That would cost money. That said I dont fill my 4250psi guns to their max. It's a pure laziness. I fill my unregulated guns to the top of the curve which is almost never 3000psi. OP you will find what works for you. I put a red line on my bar gauges where 3000psi is and go from there.

"a pure laziness" is simply an opinion. Especially if such maximum pressure is "engineered into the parts". If a given gun will utilize the maximum pressure accurately then not using it at all when it could be used would be leaving shot count lower than it could be. This might be more relevant to many than simply not filling to maximum for the heck of not doing so.