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Problems with Edgun r5m .25 standard

I have a Lelya and have had no issues with it except for the digital pressure gauge. Ill be honest about that gauge on how I felt about it. I was junk. Not sure why Ed would of went with that over an analog one. That said, Im sure there are plenty who have had no issues with it. The Lelya however shoots fantastic. I do have mine tuned a little bit on the hot side. Currently shooting .22 JSB hades at 946fps. I actually dialed it back some. Was slinging them at just over 1000fps at one point. My Lelya is very accurate. Though I can see the frustrations that people have when spending all that money only to end up not getting what they payed for. My EvoL hps for example. Day one, I got it home and shoot it some. Leaked upon first air up. basically a $2900 airgun came with an issue. Its fine now but for those prices this stuff should not happen.
 
The accuracy thing is on a rifle by rifle, barrel by barrel basis. Some are great, some are good, some are so-so. My experience having owned 6 matadors is they've all been in the great to good category, most in the "good" category. I've had 6 Matadors over the years (.22 R2.5, .22 R3, .25 R3, .22 R3M, .25 R3M, .25 R5M) and all have been accurate-- but some more so than others. My .22 R3 was the most accurate of all of them followed closely by the .25 R3. That being said, each rifle required tuning for regulator pressure and velocity to find where they were the most accurate with a given pellet.

I will agree the cocking effort on the R5M is a bit on the hard side and can be clunky. Unfortunately it will never be fingertip light or totally smooth, this is a drawback of the mechanical magazine indexing combined with the straight pull action which doesn't give you any mechanical advantage to help cock the hammer, unlike a sidelever action which uses the mechanical advantage of the levers to decrease the cocking effort.

As far as magazine indexing, on the first batch of R3M's Ed used the same magazine indexing lever for the .22 and .25 which was a problem, because the .22 uses a 10 shot magazine where the .25 is a 9 shot magazine, so the early .25 R3Ms would not index the magazine fully with the .22 indexing lever installed. I had to TIG weld up the indexing lever on my .25 R3M and rework it so it would index properly. This issue was fixed on later production batches of the R3M and is also fixed on the R5M. My .25 R5M indexes properly. Maybe your .25 R5M accidentally had a .22 or .177 indexing lever installed which would mean the 9 shot .25 magazine will not fully rotate every time you cock the rifle.

The R5M does need a firm and deliberate hand when cocking, the handles need to be pulled firmly all the way to the rear to fully index the magazine. If you don't pull the lever firmly all the way until it stops, the magazine will not fully rotate and it will either stop the bolt when pushing the cocking lever back forward or the probe will "bump" the magazine into alignment when pushing the bolt forward and shave the pellet skirt as it enters the breech which hurts accuracy.

I've had 5 Edguns, and still own 2. Both the ones I have kept are single shot, one .22 R3 Long (shoots .22 cal FX Hybrid slugs MOA at 110 yards), the other the gen1 .20 Lelya single shot. Both are super reliable and very accurate. Now on to the others... 

I've had two .25 R5Ms, one standard and one long. And BOTH OF THEM had the cocking and indexing issues. I went over the gun for quite a long time, e-mailed with the dealer and the manufacturer to no avail (both were bought used) Hey, get this! I was told I NEEDED TO LEARN HOW TO COCK THE GUN!!! OMG, are you freaking kidding me??? Even with many many hours of attempting, the Long never did work correctly, and the standard was marginal. Just to make sure that I wasn't imagining things, I sent it to the best airgun tuner I know, Derrick @zx10wall and he had the exact same issues that I did. With a lot of magic and machining, he got it so it was marginal with the JSB Kings but never did get it to Index properly with the Heavies. For both of them, the accuracy was at best, just "OK". Noting I would even consider shooting outside 75 yards.

I also had a .25 R5 Super Magnum. I wanted to make it into my slug gun, and did everything I know, and it did shoot pretty good with the lighter NSA slugs. But I had a shoot off with it and the .22 R3 Long and the R3 was much better... So the R5 SM was sold.

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/slug-fest-eddy-vs-eddy-r3-vs-r5/?referrer=1

That's been my experience with Edgun repeaters. Seems to me to be Home Depot type engineering. Definitely could be much improved. What kind of high end gun do you need to "learn" to cock the gun. WTF is that??? Also, this may be a problem specific to the .25 caliber. The .25 R5M Long I bought used from someone who SWORE it was good to go no issues. Yeah, and when pigs fly... ;)
 
I am not a tinkerer, or fixer. In my opinion any air rifle that costs close to $2000, and does not shoot perfect, upon recepit, should immediately be returned to the seller for a full refund. The only problem I would have is waiting for the refund to be credited to my account.



I suppose we all have different definitions of "perfect" or "acceptable."



If you say you would return a rifle if it wasn't "perfect" out of the box that would mean I would have returned every single air rifle I've ever had pass through my hands, as I've never had any rifle be perfect out of the box... I've found little issues I wasn't happy with in all of them. That goes for Edgun, Daystate, Benjamin, Kalibr, FX.



Were they all acceptable out of the box-- i.e. functioned properly, didn't leak, and exhibited reasonable accuracy? Nearly 100% yes, with the exception of my first production batch .25 R3M which had the wrong .22 magazine indexing lever installed that would not fully rotate the .25 magazines. The .25 R3M was the only brand new air rifle I've ever dealt with that had a legitimate functionality issue right out of the box.



A far as being "perfect" out of the box... NONE of them were. While all but the .25 R3M functioned out of the box they all had something that could benefit from a little tuning or adjustment-- some more than others. What I mean by that is accuracy tuning for a specific pellet, tuning for a bit higher shot count, making a slightly rough action a bit smoother, trigger adjustment, etc. Could you have taken any of them out of the box and gone and made acceptable size groups on paper or hunted with them and never touch them until they needed some kind of maintenance? Certainly. Could accuracy or some aspect of function be improved by some amount tuning and adjustment? Absolutely.



I will say the most trouble free air rifles that myself and several of my friends have owned have been my old .25 R3 single shot Edgun and a friend's 40 ft-lb Daystate Air Ranger. Both have provided many years of trouble free service and have been passed around through

several owners now but are still in the same circle of friends.







Back to the OP's situation, here's what I would do:



1. Magazine indexing: Remove the bolt block housing from the back of the rifle. With an empty magazine inserted into the bolt block, manually work the bolt all the way forward and all the way back smoothly and slowly by pulling on the protruding pin that cocks the hammer. If the magazine does not fully rotate and index when the bolt is pulled all the way to the rear of the breech block, there's a problem. Possibly an incorrect indexing lever from a .22 was installed, or possibly the screw and o-ring that supports the indexing plate and serves as the pivot is loose.



2. Accuracy: First I'd thoroughly clean the barrel while the breech block is off for step #1. Next, remove the front shroud cap and pull the baffle stack out of the moderator and check the tightness of the front barrel nut, I believe you need a 10mm hex bit. Too loose can hurt accuracy, as well as too tight, and my experience has been they can be way, way too tight from the factory.



Before reinstalling the baffle stack, shoot the rifle with the baffle stack removed from the moderator. If the o-ring at the front of the baffle stack under the retaining nut isn't lubricated and/or the baffle stack retaining nut is overtightened, when the baffle stack retaining cap is tightened it can distort/twist the baffle stack and possibly lead to pellet clipping. If the accuracy substantially improves at this point it may have been the pellets clipping the baffles.



After both of those steps I would try JSB 25.4's and see what the velocity is. With the exception of the limited run "superlong" rifles which have larger plenums, Ed really built the .25 R5's up around the 25.4gr JSB pellet and not the 34gr JSB pellet. Around 850-880fps for the 25.4gr pellets (and make sure the hammer spring is set at least 10 fps below the velocity peak for the regulator pressure) should be where that rifle is set up to shoot out of the box, and it should be reasonably accurate at those settings.



As I mentioned earlier my experience with the .25 R5M is that the stock plenum volume isn't ideal for the 34gr JSBs, you have to run the regulator pressure and hammer spring tension far too high because there really isn't enough plenum volume for the 34gr pellets. The R5M is much happier shooting 25.4gr pellets out of the box, and really benefits from the larger huma power plenum when shooting the 34gr pellets.



Finally, it could very well be the OP's rifle isn't happy with the 34gr Mk2 pellets which is why accuracy is poor... many rifles don't like the JSB Mk2 34gr pellets, and it seems JSB isn't making the Mk1 34 gr pellet anymore since they are shipping Mk2 pellets in Mk1 tins. If the rifle isn't shooting the 25.4gr pellets with reasonable accuracy between 850-880fps with the stock regulator and plenum at this point after trying all of the above steps, I would then suspect a possible barrel or crown issue.



Finally, I will say my .25 R5M barrel needed some time to settle in and is more sensitive to cleaning than my other Edguns.
 
I am not a tinkerer, or fixer. In my opinion any air rifle that costs close to $2000, and does not shoot perfect, upon recepit, should immediately be returned to the seller for a full refund. The only problem I would have is waiting for the refund to be credited to my account.

This ^^^^ independent of the cost... Any rifle, period

+2 to this, when I eventually get my impact I expect it to function as it should, if not its going back. Shouldn't be to much to ask for, when Charlie sent me my Uragan he knew it was good to go as every dealer should know that "tests/inspects" them.
 
Hmm, I musta got a (mostly) good Lelya 2 (mostly similar to the R5M, mechanically) outta the batch, in that timeframe.

Yes, the cocking is a bad design (my opinion). With no mechanical advantage as with a two lever design, the cocking takes a bit more effort than any other gun, at least that I own. Is it really bad, or just a design that owners have to deal with...a little of both. Mine, although it takes a dedicated pull AND push, it is moderately smooth. Always the same, nothing different with different ammo. As said, for a gun of this cost, a poor design, in my opinion. I just know that, in picking up this gun outta my safe...tug on that cocking lever hard..!

Accuracy, can't help much there. 1. I shoot offhand only. So my accuracy based on "me", and "that" day. Some days are better than others. At 70 and counting, you get what you get ! 2. My range...is fairly short. That said, the accuracy is fine in my shooting. Even using different pellets, the point of contact might be different with different weight pellets, but the spread is fairly consistent, per pellet design.

Would I buy another...? Having first hand knowledge, I guess I'd have to say no. There are, "overall" better short guns on the market, and for less money. These, you might not be able to run over them with a truck, but who the hell would do that anyway..!?

Mike
 

I've had 5 Edguns, and still own 2. Both the ones I have kept are single shot, one .22 R3 Long (shoots .22 cal FX Hybrid slugs MOA at 110 yards), the other the gen1 .20 Lelya single shot. Both are super reliable and very accurate. Now on to the others... 

I've had two .25 R5Ms, one standard and one long. And BOTH OF THEM had the cocking and indexing issues. I went over the gun for quite a long time, e-mailed with the dealer and the manufacturer to no avail (both were bought used) Hey, get this! I was told I NEEDED TO LEARN HOW TO COCK THE GUN!!! OMG, are you freaking kidding me??? Even with many many hours of attempting, the Long never did work correctly, and the standard was marginal. Just to make sure that I wasn't imagining things, I sent it to the best airgun tuner I know, Derrick @zx10wall and he had the exact same issues that I did. With a lot of magic and machining, he got it so it was marginal with the JSB Kings but never did get it to Index properly with the Heavies. For both of them, the accuracy was at best, just "OK". Noting I would even consider shooting outside 75 yards.

I also had a .25 R5 Super Magnum. I wanted to make it into my slug gun, and did everything I know, and it did shoot pretty good with the lighter NSA slugs. But I had a shoot off with it and the .22 R3 Long and the R3 was much better... So the R5 SM was sold.

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/slug-fest-eddy-vs-eddy-r3-vs-r5/?referrer=1

That's been my experience with Edgun repeaters. Seems to me to be Home Depot type engineering. Definitely could be much improved. What kind of high end gun do you need to "learn" to cock the gun. WTF is that??? Also, this may be a problem specific to the .25 caliber. The .25 R5M Long I bought used from someone who SWORE it was good to go no issues. Yeah, and when pigs fly... ;)




I 100% agree the multishot Edguns are somewhat touchy, having had a .22 R3M, .25 R3M, and .25 R5M. Ed got tired of listening to people asking for a multishot setup and came up with a retrofit to the single shot R3 design to convert it to multishot with a fully mechanically indexed magazine system. Unfortunately that means all the parts have to be damn near perfectly lined up and made/shaped perfectly to impart the correct amount of rotation every time you run the bolt and not over or under rotate the magazine… which sometimes doesn’t happen in reality.



Much easier to get perfect rotation/indexing with a spring loaded self indexing magazine that has the rotation stops built into the magazine (Daystate & FX magazines, etc) but there really wasn’t room for that kind of design on the R3M being it was a modification and new bolt block you could add to an R3… so that’s what we have now. And that R3M “retrofit” multishot magazine and bolt block / indexing lever design complete with its limitations got carried over to the R5.



Be interesting to see if Ed keeps the current magazine setup with the R6 or if he goes to something entirely new… I’m hoping for an entirely new design as the current system has always had some level of issues and complaints.



My .22 R3M worked fine out of the box but as I mentioned my .25 R3M didn’t fully index the magazine because it came with a .22 indexing lever set up for a 10-shot magazine-- and that .22 indexing lever didn’t fully rotate the 9 shot .25 magazine and it would stop short of lining up the next pellet with the breech. I had to TIG weld up the indexing lever and carefully reshape it so it would fully index the 9 shot .25 magazines, and after that it worked great. I will say the margin of error on the reshaped lever where it contacted the rotation notches on the magazine was *very* narrow… there was only about a .015” window between leaving too much material on the lever (which meant the lever would not catch the next magazine notch and therefore not index at all) and removing too much material (which means it would under-rotate and not fully index.) After that rework, the magazine had perfect rotation even working the bolt as slowly as you could.



On top of that, being a mechanically indexed magazine with ball detents and no positive stop/wall it is indeed technique sensitive. Too fast on the bolt handle can rapidly rotate the magazine and inertia can make the magazine skip past the ball detent for the next position and over-index. When the first batch of .25 R3M’s arrived and people started complaining the magazines weren’t indexing fully and jamming the bolt, Ed tried to say you needed to pull the bolt handle faster so that bit of inertia would help finish the rotation. BS… the wrong levers were installed in the first batches of .25s and were not capable of fully indexing the magazine—TIG welding mine up and reshaping it proved that, and I did that fix for a few other .25 R3M owners as well. Funny how the later batches of .25 R3M’s came with a new indexing lever that was shaped differently than the .22 indexing levers despite Ed’s guidance that the first batches “had nothing wrong with them and just needed the bolt worked faster”… LOL



My .25 R5M indexes the magazine properly but still suffers from the occasional over-rotation issue if you work the bolt too quickly—it’s a limitation of the current design, which is something I hope finally gets 100% fixed with the R6. I’m not surprised some R5M's still have indexing issues, as the current mechanical indexing design has some inherent compromises and is very susceptible to not working correctly in the event of tolerance stacking, as well as over rotation if operated too quickly.



I’m not being an apologist or brand cheerleader for Ed. While not perfect, I will say the Matadors are very solidly built rifles with a wonderfully simple design with low parts count and are very easy to work on-- the single shot versions even more so. Were any of mine benchrest accurate? No, but I bought them as hunting rifles and they have done great in that that role over the years-- I’ve taken out 6000+ ground squirrels with my Matadors. I have no issues taking out ground squirrels at 100-110Y with my current .25 R5M. It’s a compact, durable hunting rifle that has plenty of accuracy for the task at hand… even if I do wish it grouped a little better when I shoot at paper and that the cocking effort was lighter and smoother.



I'm also hoping we can help the OP sort out the issues with their rifle.

 
Yea, both my Edgun R5m's are in .22. They both are great. None of these issuers with them. The R5m is a little rough with hybrids right as they enter the breach, but smoother with most of everything else. Still not nearly as smooth as anything like FX or Daystate. 

When you take the gun a part you have to cock it first, then take of the back part. If you don't you get a weird jam the can bend the parts and cause even worse cocking.

I had a friend who as a .25 and I shot it a little. I can tell the .22's are better. I think the guns were designed as .22 then the .25 came as an after-thought. Honestly, I've had better luck in .22 than .25's with all guns, and stick to the caliber for it.
 
Just curious. Has anyone replaced the O-ring (#13 on the schematic) with something with less give..like a delving spacer or washer? Seems odd to have used an o-ring with flex/give on a part that needs to index precisely.

The o ring acts like a spring to maintain upwards tension on the indexing plate. The plate needs to be able to move up and down slightly to to ride up and down the notches on the magazine as the magazine rotates and the lever sweeps back and forth when the bolt is cycled. The indexing plate also needs to be able the flex down enough when the magazine disconnector lever is in the single shot / down position.
 
remove the stock and check if there is a pellet that fell of the magazine and doesn't let it sit correctly. i backed f the edgun as the brand new .177 long i was about to get would not hold pellets or slugs in the3 mags we tested it on and they where falling off even when all the way pushed in. and when we used 4.52 instead of 4.51 pelets there was air hissing in my eyes.
 
Did you check the barrel nut to make sure it isn't too loose or too tight, and try shooting with the baffles removed to rule out baffle strikes?

Not that it matters much at this point, based on the reply above and the other thread you started about this it sounds like you're done with the rifle and you'll never be happy with it, might as well return it or sell it and move on.
 
Cocking effort is still high.

Set it at 900 fps with 25 grain .25 jsb.

Accuracy is so bad



If you have the hammer spring cranked down to get 900fps, then that is the answer to the cocking effort. The more HS tension, the more difficult it is to cock. There is no mechanical advantage as in other side-cocking mechanisms. How many clicks from 0 are on the hammer spring?

JSB 25.4 normally shoot best around 885. Is your gun that picky? Maybe..it's only 15fps..but that could be enough.

If you have to crank the HS down to where the cocking is difficult, your regulator may be set too low to achieve the speeds you want. Have you tested the regulator to determine it's set-point?