Pressure buildup valve for springers?

As an engineer, i tend to look at things a little differently. When I was putting my Beeman Sportsman back together the other day, I got to wondering how much pressure is actually built-up by the spring before that pressure hits the pellet? My conclusion was, not very much. So i began to wonder if anybody had tried some sort of pressure buildup valve that would only allow the air to flow once it reached a certain pressure withing the plunger tube. Once that pressure was achieved, the valve would dump it into the barrel, all at once, instead of a slower, limited buildup.

Yiu see, I realized springers have one major inhibitor fir their efficiency. The pellet in the barrel starts to moce as soon as enough pressure is built up to overcome friction. That means the soring cannot build up its max pressure before the pellet leaves the barrel. By adding in a buildup valve, you can overcome that inhibitor. Also, because the plunger is still moving, pressed by the spring, that pressure would remain higher as the pellet moves down the barrel than it otherwise would have.

There would be several other advantages as I see it.
1. You would get performance more like that of a PCP, because you would have a chamber of built-up pressure released instantly before the pellet even moved instead of a relatively slow buildup as the pellet moved down the barrel.
2. Reduced recoil. Because that built-up pocket of air would act as a cussion, slowing the plunger so it doesn't smack into the tube as hard. You'd get less recoil, reducing wear and tear on the rifle.
3. You can TUNE the pressure by adjusting the valve to the ideal pressure for a given pellet. You wouldn't have to change springs!

Keep in mind, this would all happen within milliseconds, so I doubt a delayed vce, when tuned propey, would affect POI, especially with a reduced recoil. I'm confident a dump valve could be designed to release that pressure completely and quickly enough to improve performance.

I realize that I may be forgetting some things so please feel free to ask questions or point out obstacles I may have missed.
Feel free to call me crazy too. My inner mad scientist is cackling as I type this.
 
Just my thoughts.

Dieseling is not as much of a dangerous issue, from the human perspective and not the air gun's perspective, because there is an open direction of escape down the barrel.

If you place an obstruction (valve) in front of that explosion and the valve fails or does not react quick enough then the weakest point may come apart and be projected toward the shooter.
 
Just my thoughts.

Dieseling is not as much of a dangerous issue, from the human perspective and not the air gun's perspective, because there is an open direction of escape down the barrel.

If you place an obstruction (valve) in front of that explosion and the valve fails or does not react quick enough then the weakest point may come apart and be projected toward the shooter.
That is a good point. I'll have to keep that in mind for the valve design, but I think it can be overcome.
 
The Crosman 350V was a spring powered bb gun that used a pop valve in a similar way.

CRSV350-1961.jpg
 
A properly designed springer with the right pellet already has this with no extra parts. The port size and pellet fit create an optimum buffer and pressure spike to do exactly what you're suggesting. Most of the higher powered... not necessarily magnum, springers I've messed with have a snug fit in the breech which requires some effort to push the pellet past. If you seat the pellet into the leade, you eliminate this and the velocity typically goes down plus gets harsher. I'm thinking it was Maccari that experimented with port sizes by drilling the port and threading it to use drilled through grub screws for an adjustable port. There turned out to be an optimum size that was NOT bore sized but the optimum will depend on caliber, pellet fit, and pellet weight. A good tune will also have this effect.
I've considered doing that to a couple that I have laying around, as the port seems to be too large... they're very harsh for their power level.
Bob
 
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A properly designed springer with the right pellet already has this with no extra parts. The port size and pellet fit create an optimum buffer and pressure spike to do exactly what you're suggesting. Most of the higher powered... not necessarily magnum, springers I've messed with have a snug fit in the breech which requires some effort to push the pellet past. If you seat the pellet into the leade, you eliminate this and the velocity typically goes down plus gets harsher. I'm thinking it was Maccari that experimented with port sizes by drilling the port and threading it to use drilled through grub screws for an adjustable port. There turned out to be an optimum size that was NOT bore sized but the optimum will depend on caliber, pellet fit, and pellet weight. A good tune will also have this effect.
I've considered doing that to a couple that I have laying around, as the port seems to be too large... they're very harsh for their power level.
Bob

Exactly.
 
As an engineer, i tend to look at things a little differently. When I was putting my Beeman Sportsman back together the other day, I got to wondering how much pressure is actually built-up by the spring before that pressure hits the pellet? My conclusion was, not very much. So i began to wonder if anybody had tried some sort of pressure buildup valve that would only allow the air to flow once it reached a certain pressure withing the plunger tube. Once that pressure was achieved, the valve would dump it into the barrel, all at once, instead of a slower, limited buildup.

Yiu see, I realized springers have one major inhibitor fir their efficiency. The pellet in the barrel starts to moce as soon as enough pressure is built up to overcome friction. That means the soring cannot build up its max pressure before the pellet leaves the barrel. By adding in a buildup valve, you can overcome that inhibitor. Also, because the plunger is still moving, pressed by the spring, that pressure would remain higher as the pellet moves down the barrel than it otherwise would have.

There would be several other advantages as I see it.
1. You would get performance more like that of a PCP, because you would have a chamber of built-up pressure released instantly before the pellet even moved instead of a relatively slow buildup as the pellet moved down the barrel.
2. Reduced recoil. Because that built-up pocket of air would act as a cussion, slowing the plunger so it doesn't smack into the tube as hard. You'd get less recoil, reducing wear and tear on the rifle.
3. You can TUNE the pressure by adjusting the valve to the ideal pressure for a given pellet. You wouldn't have to change springs!

Keep in mind, this would all happen within milliseconds, so I doubt a delayed vce, when tuned propey, would affect POI, especially with a reduced recoil. I'm confident a dump valve could be designed to release that pressure completely and quickly enough to improve performance.

I realize that I may be forgetting some things so please feel free to ask questions or point out obstacles I may have missed.
Feel free to call me crazy too. My inner mad scientist is cackling as I type this.

You're about a hundred years too late. That's literally how a spring gun already works.

The thing is, you'd increase piston bounce/shot time/surge considerably with all this and it would destroy any hope of repeatable accuracy.

Every wild innovation that bursts onto the scene with spring guns usually ends up with accuracy compromised or it no longer being spring powered.

I know it's hard to accept, but the spring gun is a simple thing, and they are pretty much already figured out. Lot's of people.....ahem.....engineers..... have fixed them till they were broke over the years with whizbang improvements. Yet, we always go back to what worked all along.

The ether capsules didn't work......the bounce reducing crap in the piston didn't work.....opposing pistons kinda worked till they broke......square wire springs were a fad.....repeaters didn't work......taploaders sucked.....the popup breech sucked.......hell, the Theoben gas ram never even really grabbed hold and stuck around, despite being a pretty good deal all in all.

But all the simple old guns that stuck to the proven recipe have lived on, and are still here today.
 
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+1 what @Arzrover said. The friction/sticktion of the pellet fit in the lead-in chamfered section of the breech performs this function, holding the pellet in place as the pressure builds up.

Now...varying that fit and friction to find the optimum dynamics is not easy to do. Well,.... it's easy to remove metal from the breech by gentle reaming or chamfering, but if you go too far, you can't add that metal back very easily. You'd have to use a pellet with a larger head size.

This happened to be after I foolishly chamfered the breech (slightly) to ease pellet loading in my .22 Air Arms TX200 MKIII. I instantly lost about 30-40 fps!
Yes, the pellets were a little easier to load but I think I upset the delicate balance of friction for the shot cycle.

I believe the same can happen by seating pellets deeper into the rifling...eventually the pellets gets pre-swaged right in the bore and the startup sticktion is lost.

Adjustments might better be made by carefully sizing pellets to varying diameters, perhaps, and measuring the velocity. Somebody's probably already done this, I'd guess.
 
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+1 what @Arzrover said. The friction/sticktion of the pellet fit in the lead-in chamfered section of the breech performs this function, holding the pellet in place as the pressure builds up.

Now...varying that fit and friction to find the optimum dynamics is not easy to do. Well,.... it's easy to remove metal from the breech by gentle reaming or chamfering, but if you go too far, you can add that metal back very easily. You'd have to use a pellet with a larger head size.

This happened to be after I foolishly chamfered the breech (slightly) to ease pellet loading in my .22 Air Arms TX200 MKIII. I instantly lost about 30-40 fps!
Yes, the pellets were a little easier to load but I think I upset the delicate balance of friction for the shot cycle.

I believe the same can happen by seating pellets deeper into the rifling...eventually the pellets gets pre-swaged right in the bore and the startup sticktion is lost.

Adjustments might better be made by carefully sizing pellets to varying diameters, perhaps, and measuring the velocity. Somebody's probably already done this, I'd guess.
Isn't that what we do in finding The right pellet ?
 
@DIYEngineer235,
I didn't really address your idea. The thing about valves is they usually introduce flow restrictions, and a valve adds another layer of complexity to a mechanically simple system. Theoretically, if you could design a valve that would open with full cross-sectional flow area at just the right moment, repeatably, it seems like it might emulate the pulse release of compressed air just like a PCP valve. I think this is the gist of your idea.

This air is quite hot due to sudden compression, just like a diesel engine. I'm not sure what instantaneous peak pressures are developed in a springer, but I would guess it's higher than the typical PCP but with far less volume in a very short pulse time. I have a hard time imagining how to design something like that.

Too bad single stroke pneumatics can't convert the mechanical energy of a single cocking stroke as efficiently as a spring piston release to deliver the same high velocities.
 
the "air" is already controlled. Truth be told, this sort of thing used to be discussed more years ago.
Look at a diagram of a springer, that pressure is controlled.
Please check the post about lightening the HW97 piston and it will help to understand some of the basics springer "stuff".
I would also add to always think of better ways of doing anything.