• *Effective 3/27/2024 - The discussion of the creation, fabrication, or modification of airgun moderators is prohibited. The discussion of any "adapters" used to convert an airgun moderator to a firearm silencer will result in immediate termination of the account.*

Porous Moderator Design Tests

Yesterday at this post we started kicking around this idea. So I made one and tested it.
Not bad. 😉


Here is the audio, stripped and set up for comparison, three shots bare, three shots unwrapped and three shots wrapped.


Here is the graph of that audio. I cut the graph off at 10 kHz. It lets us see what is going on better at the lower end of the spectrum.

Comparison-Graph-2.jpg
 
Last edited:
The porous mod took the high frequency "edge" off the bark of the gun but didn't seem to limit overall volume that much. The taped mod definitely limited other frequencies as well. Noticeably more quiet all the way around. How does it affect accuracy? Any changes in poi, even incrementally?
Are you selling those?
 
The porous mod took the high frequency "edge" off the bark of the gun but didn't seem to limit overall volume that much. The taped mod definitely limited other frequencies as well. Noticeably more quiet all the way around. How does it affect accuracy? Any changes in poi, even incrementally?
Are you selling those?
Agreed, accuracy and sound suppression together, that's the ticket!
 
I wrapped them in electrical tape when I was putting them inside a shroud.

No POI issues in my testing, even with tight bore clearances.

They get more quiet the longer you make them (within reason). The ones I was using were 150mm long.

I just realized in my slicer, I can segment a model into separate pieces, which get their own slicer settings. Could have a gradient of infill % and regions (where the washer like bits go) that are printed solid with walls. The more sophisticated designs were tricky to print entirely without walls. This also allows for making a core with the threaded part all in one go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldSpook
OldSpook, answers to my questions? And another one, have you tried a porous moderator with an unpororous cf sleeve?
:unsure:


I have no idea what it does to accuracy, even incrementally.

I am not selling them, yet.

I have not tried it with a CF sleeve, perhaps tomorrow.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: beerthief
I was thinking about something along the lines of an aquarium bubbler, but I think the material itself would break down like sand. Very cool though, it sounds like a pumper being shot but just cocked and not pressurized.
Ive also thought of the aquarium bubbler material! Hahaha! If there were a way to stabilize it without sealing all the pores up I think it would work incredibly. Maybe just 3D printing the equivalent is the way to go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IMADMAN
If there were a way to stabilize it without sealing all the pores up I think it would work incredibly.
I don't know diddly about aquariums and accessories, but my Duck Duck Go-fu tells me there are bubblers made of silicone, aluminum oxide ("ceramic"), lime wood (very tiny bubbles) and likely others.

What about adding very low viscosity cyanoacrylate? In the lab, I've seen binder-jet AM printed parts strengthened by using "super glue", wicking into the parts. Perhaps brushing it on lightly would work, though it would have to be very thin as to not plug the holes. Mayhaps, submerging it in the glue while pumping air through it would work for a one-off test, but might be a pain for producing many.
 
I searched for a large enough piece of the material to work with and didn’t find any, and considered contacting manufacturers and see if something could be made in an appropriate size , but never pursued it further than just giving it consideration. I filed it away in the old rusty filing cabinet I call a brain and never thought more of it until it was resurrected by this thread. I don’t think superglue would do more than filing in the pourous material and defeat the purpose of it. It would have to be a redesigned material with this use in mind, because the bubbler material is kind of crumbly and weak as it comes new when you try to work with it.
I think oldspook is on the right track with 3D printing a pourous design. Can’t wait to see what these experiments lead to. Hopefully he makes some that are a bit larger diameter and some that are a bit longer for comparison. I feel like a larger diameter mod made like this will be more effective than a similarly sized traditional style mod.
 
I think oldspook is on the right track with 3D printing a pourous design. Can’t wait to see what these experiments lead to. Hopefully he makes some that are a bit larger diameter and some that are a bit longer for comparison. I feel like a larger diameter mod made like this will be more effective than a similarly sized traditional style mod.
@denovich is the one who actually prompted me to follow through with that idea. I had kicked it around summer of 22 but stopped at just making baffles. His post kicked me in gear. So thank him. 😁
 
The nice thing about this kind of design is that it is very easy to scale. Also easy to tweak the mesh properties by changing infill settings. They can also additionally be wrapped with felt or similar.
If you would please, tell me more about your experiments with the density of the infill settings.

I am working on a design which uses this principle, sort of a hybrid of a tesla baffle as the stripper and an expansion chamber using this material configured as a miniature anechoic chamber. Trying to minimize resonant frequencies.
 
The porous moderator without the aluminum foil tape wrap serves as a model for moderators with side vents. Adding the tape shows why side vents are not helpful. This fits in with the principle of making the baffle bore smaller to reduce total air flow out of the moderator; or at least slow it down. That, and couple to a smaller area of ambient air via a smaller frontal hole.

The reason why the factory made moderators with the stylish vents get away with the illusion that vents help is because there are so few tiny holes. That, and the holes are effectively blocked of by means of fibrous materials on the inside of the moderator.

I would like to see how different pore widths of the gyroid infill affects their sound absorbing properties; and by how much blocking off the external leakage via the foil tape affects the system performance. It is hard to tell from the images, but it looks like the gyroid infill pore widths are somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 mm. What is the optimum; and is that application dependent? Enquiring minds want to know.
 
Last edited:
The porous moderator without the aluminum foil tape wrap serves as a model for moderators with side vents. Adding the tape shows why side vents are not helpful.
Maybe. I think that is a pretty big leap.
This fits in with the principle of making the baffle bore smaller to reduce total air flow out of the moderator; or at least slow it down. That, and couple to a smaller area of ambient air via a smaller frontal hole.
What fits in?
The reason why the factory made moderators with the stylish vents get away with the illusion that vents help is because there are so few tiny holes. That, and the holes are effectively blocked of by means of fibrous materials on the inside of the moderator.
I have not seen any tests which were not obviously subjective that indicated side vents are not useful. Neither have I seen any which prove they are useful. STO did some work with the idea early on. They appeared to favor the idea at that time. I have not read everything in that blog yet.
I would like to see how different pore widths of the gyroid infill affects their sound absorbing properties; and by how much blocking off the external leakage via the foil tape affects the system performance.
You can measure that using the information provided. Install Audacity and analyze the audio. I did that. I don't recall the exact numbers.
It is hard to tell from the images, but it looks like the gyroid infill pore widths are somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 mm. What is the optimum; and is that application dependent? Enquiring minds want to know.
The density of the infill is expressed in percentages. Unfortunately I don't know precisely what that is measuring. One could look at the percentages in the slicer for a cube of the material and the projected weights of material used and calculate the actual density of the filament relative to a solid block. That might be a useful metric.

I have observed that almost everyone who thinks they understand what is going on inside a moderator actually doesn't. I include both myself and you ;) in that group. I am a year and a half into this endeavor and I am only just beginning to feel like I might have some theories worth simulating in Blender to see what is really taking place. It would be good to actually be able to visualize air flows in a simulation. I may spend some time this spring learning that simulation tool.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AirGunShooter
OldSpook,

I would never claim to understand all the intricacies of how mufflers work. I have seen too many that did not work as well as expected; and a few that worked better. That said, I can come up with a reasonably functioning custom muffler most of the time.

As for side vents not having proven or disproven, the only evidence I have is anecdotal (not from a proper study - so that is a project that would be interesting to do). The anecdotal evidence involves taping off the vents, VS leaving them open. Besides, vents are not binary. The flow area of each vent and the total flow area have to be specified. Also, whether the vents are coupled directly to the inside of the can, or if some sort of dense fiber in occluding the flow - and how thick that fiber layer is; tamped down or not.

I find it instructive that most people advocating drilling holes in the rear of the shroud instruct their followers to stuff the end of the shroud with cotton wool, "to filter out lead dust, so you don't breath it". It is my contention that whatever improvement in sound that they perceive comes from the cotton wool, because if you remove that, the airgun is louder at your ear. So, the true believers should start with just the cotton wool; and leave their shrouds undrilled.

If you manage to flow enough air out the rear of a shroud or the sides of a muffler to reduce the report out the front, then you have increased the report towards the rear or sides. Some people have told me that they don't mind that, and only care about forward noise. Their choice.

In my opinion a dozen sub millimeter holes drilled in a muffler casing cannot flow enough air to make any difference in the 2 or 3 tenths of a second that the moderator is active, with the first tenth of a second being the one where most of the magic happens. Those vents do even less when obscured via fibrous material.

Gyroid infill is particularly interesting compared to cotton wool, because gyroid infill is open enough to accept air volume, it has many lossy flow passages, and acts as a poor sound reflector - all in one.

If you and denovitch promote gyroid infill by means of sound improvement recordings and dB reduction data, DonnyFL and Hugget etc will eventually "have to" include it in their products, or fall out of fashion. Air gunners will soon be asking for it. And the good thing is gyroid infill actually works to improve airgun moderators. Unlike the pin striping that is a few rows of tiny vents.

I had a conversation with Gregor that started with corporate images, showing the Huben bullpup shroud with its vents at the front in some images, and in the rear in other images. The first question was where should the vents be, to be most useful. Gregor offered his opinion that when shooting at full power with the vented shroud "holy" at the rear, the airgun was louder to his ear. Yet that is where they are supposed to be. I interpret that as all the cool PCPs have shroud vents. Ditto for mufflers. So, if you want to compete in the market, you better have them. Style over substance.

I have been asked for variants of my muffler designs for the Huben pistol. The request are all about looking better, rather than sounding better. I have nothing against good looking designs, but not if it compromises function excessively; or in some cases, at all.

I realize that I am offering opinion based on facts, as I interpret them. You are free to mock me for that. In my opinion, you are helping me make my case. Manufacturers stamp in those vents. I want to stamp them out :)