N/A POI Shift conditions.

Caliber 22

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Nov 29, 2023
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I see many people complain about POI shift and I think many experience it but don't want to say anything about it for various reasons. That is from all levels of air rifles, from budget to expensive top tier rifles.

What is the reasons for that ? Here are some thoughts that can cause it, singular or any combination of it.

I will update this list as more input are given and mark extra input with *.
Possible solution marked with 🪛.
Needs solution ❓

Weather / atmospheric conditions, excluding the obvious wind drift / air turbulence.
- Temperature changing metal expansion / contraction letting barrels curve to one side. (I found that with air rifles as well as PB rifles after it sits in the sun for a while.) 🪛 - Keep the rifle out of direct sunlight.
- Air pressure causing the projectile to fly differently through the air. ❓
- Temperature altering the telescope internals. ❓ - Try to keep the scope out of the heat of cold.

The rifle itself.
- Barrel fixed in position properly, all fasteners are tight, but still movement with handling / bumps, especially thinner barrels. ❓
- Barrel to thin causing it to have more vibrations / harmonic disturbance that change with external conditions. 🪛 * Thick/solid barrels, and secure fixation of the barrel.
- Barrel is dirty. 🪛 - Clean the barrel properly.
- Internal air movement / turbulence in silencer / silencer not centered. ❓
- Obvious things like loose hardware. 🪛 - Tighten all fasters and test for movement.
- Breach seal. 🪛 - Replace breach seal and oil regular with silicon oil.
- 1st Shot low POI. 🪛 - Regulator creep cause high plenum pressure, causing the hammer not being able to open the valve enough for for power shot. Shoot a few dry shots to bring pressure back to setting and after that continue to shoot with projectiles.
* Faulty regulator. 🪛 - Service or replace regulator.
* Bent probe. 🪛 - Replace probe.
* Magazine not indexing correctly. ❓ - If possible, adjust magazine. - Buy another magazine. - Single load.
* Bad design. ❓- Other than buying a better rifle, see if you can do some work to improve yours.

Telescope.
* Poor parallax adjustment. 🪛 - Adjust parallax.
* Ocular lens loose. 🪛 Tighten lens.

Ammunition.
- Ammunition not consistent - weight, diameter, balance. 🪛 - Sort ammo
- Pellet design not meant for longer distance. 🪛 - Use different pellets.
- Ammo not tested to see what shoot best from rifle. 🪛 Test different ammo and even different batches of same ammo.
- Low quality ammo. 🪛 - Buy better ammo and test.
- Damaged ammo. 🪛 - Discard damaged ammo.

Shooter.
- Mostly shooter input differences from session to session. (Many times my problem. :() 🪛 - Practice for consistency.
- Rifle canting. 🪛 - Install scope level and always keep the rifle level.
* Inconsistent cheek weld. 🪛 - Practice for consistency.

Other.
* Contaminated air supply. (edit: This will include moist in the air.) 🪛 Improve filtration.

What else? Are there other reasons for POI shift ? What are the most common problems?
 
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What else? Are there other reasons for POI shift ? What is the most common problem? I will update this list as more input are given.

Bad design.

Two biggest factors to aid in elimination of poi shifting are: thick/solid barrels, and secure fixation of the barrel.
 
In 2019 I bought a mk2 impact, when I posted about poi shift I was accused of being a troll, it’s been 4 years, can I come out from under my bridge now

FBA497A2-6542-4DE9-8C8B-8379E913D47E.jpeg
 
That was ugly, EEEEK! POI shifts are my most hated #1 enemy.

Try that in a gun like say a heavy barreled Vudoo 22rf and nothing will happen, or for that matter any of my heavy barreled target grade centerfire rifles.

I haven't tried hitting the shroud with my 17 cal Thomas FT but I doubt anything would be affected because the shroud is attached via threading onto the action thus impossible to touch the barrel. Also the barrel is clamped into a THICK receiver.
 
I see many people complain about POI shift and I think many experience it but don't want to say anything about it for various reasons. That is from all levels of air rifles, from budget to expensive top tier rifles.

What is the reasons for that ? Here are some thoughts that can cause it, singular or any combination of it.

I will update this list as more input are given and mark extra input with *.
Possible solution marked with 🪛.
Needs solution ❓

Weather / atmospheric conditions, excluding the obvious wind drift / air turbulence.
- Temperature changing metal expansion / contraction letting barrels curve to one side. (I found that with air rifles as well as PB rifles after it sits in the sun for a while.) 🪛 - Keep the rifle out of direct sunlight.
- Air pressure causing the projectile to fly differently through the air. ❓
- Temperature altering the telescope internals. ❓ - Try to keep the scope out of the heat of cold.

The rifle itself.
- Barrel fixed in position properly, all fasteners are tight, but still movement with handling / bumps, especially thinner barrels. ❓
- Barrel to thin causing it to have more vibrations / harmonic disturbance that change with external conditions. 🪛 * Thick/solid barrels, and secure fixation of the barrel.
- Barrel is dirty. 🪛 - Clean the barrel properly.
- Internal air movement / turbulence in silencer / silencer not centered. ❓
- Obvious things like loose hardware. 🪛 - Tighten all fasters and test for movement.
- Breach seal. 🪛 - Replace breach seal and oil regular with silicon oil.
* Faulty regulator. 🪛 - Service or replace regulator.
* Bent probe. 🪛 - Replace probe.
* Magazine not indexing correctly. ❓ - If possible, adjust magazine. - Buy another magazine. - Single load.
* Bad design. ❓- Other than buying a better rifle, see if you can do some work to improve yours.

Telescope.
* Poor parallax adjustment. 🪛 - Adjust parallax.
* Ocular lens loose. 🪛 Tighten lens.

Ammunition.
- Ammunition not consistent - weight, diameter, balance. 🪛 - Sort ammo
- Pellet design not meant for longer distance. 🪛 - Use different pellets.
- Ammo not tested to see what shoot best from rifle. 🪛 Test different ammo and even different batches of same ammo.
- Low quality ammo. 🪛 - Buy better ammo and tes
- Damaged ammo. 🪛 - Discard damaged ammo.

Shooter.
- Mostly shooter input differences from session to session. (Many times my problem. :() 🪛 - Practice for consistency.
- Rifle canting. 🪛 - Install scope level and always keep the rifle level.
* Inconsistent cheek weld. 🪛 - Practice for consistency.

Other.
* Contaminated air supply. (edit: This will include moist in the air.) 🪛 Improve filtration.

What else? Are there other reasons for POI shift ? What are the most common problems?
So many factors but when people see something online they assume they can consistently reproduce those results. I have had bent probes, messed up mags, severed orings, inconsistent custom slugs, platforms that are not so ridged that require a sight in check every use.
 
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Thats the incorrect method to establish poi shift in between use. Shooting groups after impact is not usually the issue with rifles like the fx. The issue is actually taking it out and aiming at the same point of zero and it hitting elsewhere between use not grouping in one place.
 
There is a video on YouTube where a uk shooter tested 3 of his pcps for poi shift, these were the impact, epoch and raw hm1000x.

All three guns shot a 5 group control then the barrels were shaken and another 5 shot group.

To be fair three did show some degree of poi shift but the fx was by far the worst and after only 3 shots the RAW had moved back to the original poi
Thats the incorrect method to establish poi shift in between use. Shooting groups after impact is not usually the issue with rifles like the fx. The issue is actually taking it out and aiming at the same point of zero and it hitting elsewhere between use not grouping in one place.
ok I had an fx impact, it was accurate once zeroed but EVERY time I took it out of the box poi will have moved by about 1” at 25yards, if I took the moderator off then put it back on or I knocked it, the poi moved by more than that.
Even if I left the gun untouched on the bench for an hour, poi will have moved. I have been shooting airguns for over 50 years, apart from one cr@p break barrel spring I had in the 1960’s none of my other guns have suffered from poi shift.

Bb
 
not familiar with fx so cant comment on that ... some of the bigger issues ive run into are -
- guns with a design that can actually flex the receiver, moving the scope in relation to the barrel depending on fill pressure and i would imagine to a lesser extent, temp
- damaged oring(s), that little shaved off flat spot that can be hard to detect visually can act differently depending on several conditions.
- the scope is damaged or something loose internally, ive seen a condition where a certain focus setting will move a lens/ crosshair ..
- scope rings overtightened, especially with aluminum rings tightened about 3X over spec, they will deform slowly as they settle into that lol ..
 
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There is a video on YouTube where a uk shooter tested 3 of his pcps for poi shift, these were the impact, epoch and raw hm1000x.

All three guns shot a 5 group control then the barrels were shaken and another 5 shot group.

To be fair three did show some degree of poi shift but the fx was by far the worst and after only 3 shots the RAW had moved back to the original poi

ok I had an fx impact, it was accurate once zeroed but EVERY time I took it out of the box poi will have moved by about 1” at 25yards, if I took the moderator off then put it back on or I knocked it, the poi moved by more than that.
Even if I left the gun untouched on the bench for an hour, poi will have moved. I have been shooting airguns for over 50 years, apart from one cr@p break barrel spring I had in the 1960’s none of my other guns have suffered from poi shift.

Bb
Yeah fx falls with the spotlight on them often in this discussion but that said if you sight in then its consistent for that session. I find even my dreamline is in the bullseye at 50 yds every time but can be at a different place in the bullseye. I head the way the the panthera and dynamic or even drs is carbon sleeved is supposed to eliminate this but recent customer trials have told me otherwise. I am gonna have to make my own determination. Other rifles I will find can be highly accurate with thick barrels like daystate but the way the regulator reponds on the first shot is a hunting issue when it comes to long range. Basically the first shot is a throw away shooting low power by 20-50fps.
 
Yeah fx falls with the spotlight on them often in this discussion but that said if you sight in then its consistent for that session. I find even my dreamline is in the bullseye at 50 yds every time but can be at a different place in the bullseye. I head the way the the panthera and dynamic or even drs is carbon sleeved is supposed to eliminate this but recent customer trials have told me otherwise. I am gonna have to make my own determination. Other rifles I will find can be highly accurate with thick barrels like daystate but the way the regulator reponds on the first shot is a hunting issue when it comes to long range. Basically the first shot is a throw away shooting low power by 20-50fps.
I don’t really know how to respond to this without seeming to be an fx hater but first shot velocity drop on my impact was yet another reason why I sold it. I bought it as a compact hunting gun but due to its inconsistencies I never took it out and it was relegated to an expensive back garden plinker.

While I really like the design concept of many of the fx rifles, it seems to me that fx are more keen to get another gun to market rather than sorting out the ones they already have. Many other manufacturers evolve their guns over many interactions making small incremental improvements.

Bb
 
FX barrels? post #21

 
I've smacked quite a few airgun barrels around and done similar tests to that guy. If it doesn't hold up it won't last here. Haven't had issues with quite a few guns like Evols, Taipans, Kalibrguns, AGTs and R5Ms. Are there others probably but those are the ones I can remember.
Thank god for the army tanks of the airgun world. That’s why when I read about guys complaining about the sensitive temperamental guns, I think well buddy, you do have options. Classifieds then new purchase. The rock solid guns we can buy may not be hype guns, but they are boringly solid performers.
 
I don’t really know how to respond to this without seeming to be an fx hater but first shot velocity drop on my impact was yet another reason why I sold it. I bought it as a compact hunting gun but due to its inconsistencies I never took it out and it was relegated to an expensive back garden plinker.

While I really like the design concept of many of the fx rifles, it seems to me that fx are more keen to get another gun to market rather than sorting out the ones they already have. Many other manufacturers evolve their guns over many interactions making small incremental improvements.

Bb
If you were completely selling out of all of your unsorted out rifles, would you worry about it? Unsorted rifles sell a sh#tload of aftermarket do-dads. For every guy who gets ticked off at his FX and finally dumps it, 10+ more are placing orders for their FX dream rifle. It’s an interesting phenomenon. That’s the best word I could think of to describe it.