Petition to Allow Laser Range Finders in Field Target Competitions

[steve123]

I always thought the whole point of field target is to have practiced shooting enough to be able to judge distances w/o rangefinder or be able to use your scope to judge range. Everyone wants everything to be easy anymore, everyone should get participation awards to for just showing up.
If you want to learn to shoot or participate bad enough using a rangefinder will have no bearing on if you do. Its been over 20 yrs since I used to shoot FT but thats the way it was back then.

You thought, Point taken - from someone who hasn't shot FT in 20 years . Well at least I'm still doing it.

I've seen many new/er shooters show up to FT matches and finish with mid single digit scores who never came back as well as only showed up a few times with slightly improved scores, then left. Part of that unpleasant outcome was not knowing the distance to the target which might have been solved using a more appropriate/expensive scope to range with and/or a better gun but I'm pretty sure most of the reason they decided to stop was not wanting to buy another scope or gun, so that was that. However often these same people already had a LRF which would do the trick to get them to 50% scores which might have ignited continuing interest. But 'back then' as you say, there was no allowance for a Unlimited Freestyle division/ or a "just for fun" division I should say, you know for people who want to shoot in this sport in a less serious way.

And there are people out there that could care less about AAFTA divisions, or competing beyond their local venue, and who just want to come have fun knocking targets down using what, gun, scope, and LRF, they have already, never intending to upgrade. I have four friends that our MD got mad at because they had no intention of shooting other than in Freestyle and all these guys were in, or well past, their late 60's, so were not interested in serious competition anyway but seeing how well they'd do against each other. They also had other friends and family that were going to start shooting with us who bought pcp's which didn't try FT because this contentious situation happened. Meanwhile the clubs are complaining about faltering interest and low attendance, pfffft. That's super ironic isn't it?! Oh what might have been.....

Thanks I'll just enjoy participating, award or not, because to me it's about having fun vs winning. Participation awards, hah. I've done enough winning abiding by "the rules" in a half dozen gun games in pistol and rifle since I was a young adult (including 6 state FT wins) that if I never won a match again I'm okay with it/(almost looking that way now).
In another decade, if I'm still on earth that is, I'll probably be timed out, or close to it anyway, so I'll enjoy shooting how I like while can and I not worry about what other people think.

Also for me FT has been more about figuring windage needed to knock a target down vs the other combined factors.

 

[humbled.ag]

Why not set a proficiency rating threshold that requires you to give up the lrf? I think if you get to, and over a seventy percent knockdown rate for a season, you don't get to use a lrf next season.

 

[Iowa Airgunner]

I am starting a field target club and air gun club from scratch. No one knows anything about the sport of field target and airguns past a couple ratters.

So for me I want to not only get people excited about airguns but join a club practice and join in competition. That’s a lot to ask of a population that has never seen a field target.
So my plan is to make the club a training environment not a competition so much.
For the first competition and until someone can clear the course. I have all the targets set at 15-25-35 yards . This is so no one has to deal with range finding. And I show them how to set up there gun to hit 25 zero and about one dot down for 35 and 15.
The kill zones are set to max and I give one point for a face plate and two points for a knock down. All for positive feedback.
I also have a picnic table and tent and chairs to encourage a social aspect.
Range finding is critical if you want to be successful at field target And using a gadget does not help new shooters at all.

 

[Franklink]

Edit: my comments here are general field target, not necessarily WFTF specific.

From @humbled.ag...
"Why not set a proficiency rating threshold that requires you to give up the lrf? I think if you get to, and over a seventy percent knockdown rate for a season, you don't get to use a lrf next season."

This is the kind of mentality that Steve was talking about driving a segment of potential participants away.
A laser rangefinder doesn't make the course any more clearable.
A laser rangefinder doesn't ruin the game for anyone, if that's how somebody wants to play it.

A plethora of classes and divisions has never been something field target has had an issue with. And I'm not sure why this is any different.

I've been squadded with Steve in the past, he using a rangefinder, but otherwise shooting from "Hunter" position, me in either Open or Hunter. And him having a rangefinder hasn't lessened the game for me even slightly. He was discreet about the distances, the same any 80x WFTF'r would be when squadded with a Hunter class shooter.

When I used a 50x Falcon on my Open class rig, it was more accurate in ranging distances than a rangefinder. The line drawn on this side of an LRF is somewhat comical to me.

If a laser rangefinder lets even one guy come out and shoot that wouldn't otherwise, I don't see the issue. In a shooting sport where we've got 8 possible classes (10 if you want to include both flavors of pistol FT), what's one more class? (and for the bean counters amongst us: Open PCP, Open Piston, WFTF PCP, WFTF Piston, Hunter PCP, Hunter Piston, Unlimited PCP, Unlimited Piston, Pistol Hunter, Pistol Limited).

(Steve shot a 45/48 with an LRF at our local match three days ago. High score was a 48/48, shot from a Hunter shooter @ 16x. The wind was the equalizer, as it so often is).

 

[Iowa Airgunner]

"Why not set a proficiency rating threshold that requires you to give up the lrf? I think if you get to, and over a seventy percent knockdown rate for a season, you don't get to use a lrf next season."

This is the kind of mentality that Steve was talking about driving a segment of potential participants away.
A laser rangefinder doesn't make the course any more clearable.
A laser rangefinder doesn't ruin the game, if that's how somebody wants to play it.

A plethora of classes and divisions has never been something field target has had an issue with. And I'm not sure why this is any different.

I've been squadded with Steve in the past, he using a rangefinder, but otherwise shooting from "Hunter" position, me in either Open or Hunter. And him having a rangefinder hasn't lessened the game for me even slightly. He was discreet about the distances, the same any WFTF'r would be when squadded with a Hunter class shooter.

When I used a 50x Falcon on my Open class rig, it was more accurate in ranging distances than a rangefinder. The line drawn on this side of an LRF is somewhat comical to me.

If a laser rangefinder lets even one guy come out and shoot that wouldn't otherwise, I don't see the issue. In a shooting sport where we've got 8 possible classes (10 if you want to include both flavors of pistol FT), what's one more class?

From a seasoned shooters perspective. I don’t think me knowing the distance with a laser rangefinder would help me. I got the range finding part down.
Wind nerves and judgment are why I miss.

 

[thomasair]

This is a wftf petition. Not a hunter or unlimited thing,

The comical part of the whole range finder petition is that there is no real evidence that it is even a real advantage of any kind in wftf. Please note that I said wftf, which is what the "petition" is directed towards.

I'm in the category of people that would rather not ban items for perceived advantages. That's just dumb...but I'm also hesitant to consider changing longstanding rules that won't make a difference anyway. I'm guessing if range finders were allowed in wftf...very few would choose to use them. I'm certain that it wouldn't increase participation in any long term way. You still have to read the wind and shoot a 12fpe rifle which is by far the most difficult skill to acquire. It's really only new shooters that think the game is about something else.

A new shooter using a lrf gives him distances but not where to set his scope turret. If he doesn't feel like getting a scope set up to range... he probably won't work too hard to get good numbers either. Ultimately...people that demand to be competitive without any work don't stick around in any long established game.

Mike

 

[Motorhead]

While establishing an approximate distance to intended target is not to be discounted, the shooters ability to actually get the shot to go exactly were intended is the FAR BIGGER CHALLENGE that new or inexperienced shooters may not understand just how deep this rabbit hole of precision shooting goes !!

Having the distance prior to shot is in itself only a small piece of the required to actually strike the target where wanted.
I have witnessed over many years that a lot of shooters in FT have some really sloppy D.O.P.E. data and do handicap them self due to this. While at the same time some of these shooters with sloppy data do exceedingly well in spite it
Difference being ... generally the experience / skill of the shooter doing things that are not obvious to an observer or weighted upon there D.O.P.E. at face value.

If your hold correction data is NOT accurate, knowing a distance to target generally won't help you much if at all ... IMO
If your Hold Data is accurate some errors in ranging distance your still going to do well once you get some experience in which areas & distances your optics get soft on parallax ranging and one learns to adjust there POA to compensate if your corrected hold is a bit incorrect
( At times in this situation we don't always vertically aim at middle of KZ ) similar to windage hold correction for the wind !

 

[AirNGasman]

I have witnessed over many years that a lot of shooters in FT have some really sloppy D.O.P.E. data and do handicap them self due to this. While at the same time some of these shooters with sloppy data do exceedingly well in spite it

Please... call me Dopey.

Just don't call me late for dinner!

.

 

[steve123]

While establishing an approximate distance to intended target is not to be discounted, the shooters ability to actually get the shot to go exactly were intended is the FAR BIGGER CHALLENGE that new or inexperienced shooters may not understand just how deep this rabbit hole of precision shooting goes !!

Having the distance prior to shot is in itself only a small piece of the required to actually strike the target where wanted.
I have witnessed over many years that a lot of shooters in FT have some really sloppy D.O.P.E. data and do handicap them self due to this. While at the same time some of these shooters with sloppy data do exceedingly well in spite it
Difference being ... generally the experience / skill of the shooter doing things that are not obvious to an observer or weighted upon there D.O.P.E. at face value.

If your hold correction data is NOT accurate, knowing a distance to target generally won't help you much if at all ... IMO
If your Hold Data is accurate some errors in ranging distance your still going to do well once you get some experience in which areas & distances your optics get soft on parallax ranging and one learns to adjust there POA to compensate if your corrected hold is a bit incorrect
( At times in this situation we don't always vertically aim at middle of KZ ) similar to windage hold correction for the wind !

"Having the distance prior to shot is in itself only a small piece of the required to actually strike the target where wanted"

I wouldn't say "small", because we are shooting at circle shapes in the wind, and the smaller that circle is the more critical knowing the distance becomes, and even more important for those that have mid level precision capability guns with 1/3rd a KZ's worth of precision/or in other words most of the newer shooters. You can get away with being off with distance on larger KZ's but not so much on a smaller KZ's, and those misses on the small ones add up.

Instead IMHO knowing distances is "as important' as the other combined factors, like DOPE, wind reading then compensation, and shooting skills, because without all of them used together scores will suffer accordingly. You can't have one without the rest and expect success if success is winning the match.

All else being equal, too me if anything, the most important factor is individual "positional" shooting prowess because this often means being in the top spot or not. A good example of this is WFTF Lauren Parsons because she rarely misses a positional and if the wind is down, look out.
Or mental mistakes, so many times I made one mistake and down the roster I went.

 

[cavedweller]

You thought, Point taken - from someone who hasn't shot FT in 20 years . Well at least I'm still doing it.

I've seen many new/er shooters show up to FT matches and finish with mid single digit scores who never came back as well as only showed up a few times with slightly improved scores, then left. Part of that unpleasant outcome was not knowing the distance to the target which might have been solved using a more appropriate/expensive scope to range with and/or a better gun but I'm pretty sure most of the reason they decided to stop was not wanting to buy another scope or gun, so that was that. However often these same people already had a LRF which would do the trick to get them to 50% scores which might have ignited continuing interest. But 'back then' as you say, there was no allowance for a Unlimited Freestyle division/ or a "just for fun" division I should say, you know for people who want to shoot in this sport in a less serious way.

And there are people out there that could care less about AAFTA divisions, or competing beyond their local venue, and who just want to come have fun knocking targets down using what, gun, scope, and LRF, they have already, never intending to upgrade. I have four friends that our MD got mad at because they had no intention of shooting other than in Freestyle and all these guys were in, or well past, their late 60's, so were not interested in serious competition anyway but seeing how well they'd do against each other. They also had other friends and family that were going to start shooting with us who bought pcp's which didn't try FT because this contentious situation happened. Meanwhile the clubs are complaining about faltering interest and low attendance, pfffft. That's super ironic isn't it?! Oh what might have been.....

Thanks I'll just enjoy participating, award or not, because to me it's about having fun vs winning. Participation awards, hah. I've done enough winning abiding by "the rules" in a half dozen gun games in pistol and rifle since I was a young adult (including 6 state FT wins) that if I never won a match again I'm okay with it/(almost looking that way now).
In another decade, if I'm still on earth that is, I'll probably be timed out, or close to it anyway, so I'll enjoy shooting how I like while can and I not worry about what other people think.

Also for me FT has been more about figuring windage needed to knock a target down vs the other combined factors.

The way i see it "FT is having a good time with people who enjoy airguns and knocking down targets".
Yes... i can see the need for some serious competition as well, but, it's me against MOI, and oh yeah + me against the wind.
It's not my goal in life to compare myself or my skills to others... life is to short... play is important.
have fun!

 

[JW.]

All else being equal, to me if anything, the most important factor is individual "positional" shooting prowess because this often means being in the top spot or not. A good example of this is WFTF Lauren Parsons because she rarely misses a positional and if the wind is down, look out.
Or mental mistakes, so many times I made one mistake and down the roster I went.

Amazing the damage a couple of forced position lanes can do to your score isn't it?! On a good day I can hit all or all but one of my divisional position shots (seated w/harness) and still wind up in second because of the offhand lanes.

I have a list of 12 mistakes I have to get out of the way each year in order to shoot well. If i'm getting those 12 out of the way at GP matches it means I need to go to more club matches. I found a 13th mistake at the NV GP, using the wrong wind card...

 

[AirNGasman]

it's me against MOI.
It's not my goal in life to compare myself or my skills to others...

I hear that MOI character is one difficult nut to crack. He's Mexican, right?

.