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Pellet groups at 100y outdoors in very light conditions

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thomasair

thomasair

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Manufacturer
Nov 6, 2016
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Colorado, United States
Shot these this morning at 100y using JSB RD monsters at 960 or so. Conditions very very light…topping out at maybe 2-3 mph. One group is 25 shots, and the 2 others are 10 shots. One of the 10 shot groups I used a pellet seater and the other just pushing them into the barrel with thumb. Not much difference that I could see. They should all be well under 1 Moa based on the quarter.

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I know you think I am being a dick. I am not but I am not sure how to convince you of that.

At the levels of accuracy that you are achieving, the things you are testing may well be buried in the noise of literally a one mile per hour wind. By that I mean the wind drift for that pellet at that velocity at 50 yards is about half an inch (~3 calibers) and at 100 yards it is about an inch and a quarter (~6 calibers) for a one mph (1 mile per hour) wind.

What if you are missing a couple mm here and a couple mm there. JUST FOR CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION PURPOSES, what if you are missing 2 mm of improvement by not seating them (or vice versa) and two mm of improvement by sorting them? 

Is it safe to say that those "invisible" improvements could cost you a match and you might never know it? Yes I agree that it is also a time management thing. Shooting teaches one to dope the wind and these other things take time away from that, still?

Asked with all due respect.

Geometry of Pellet Rolling

Accuracy of Pellet Rolling
 
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No matter how you slice it, that is amazing accuracy at 100 yards!

Your Thomas likes 960 FPS with the RDs and the Daystate RW likes about 970 FPS with the same pellet. I only wish I could have ONE EBR practice card (outdoors) that would incorporate some of this level of accuracy Mike! But, I do know that most EBR events are shot in significant wind locations ( RMAC and EBR ) where the wind reading really comes into play for achieving great scoring cards. Still, nice to see groups like this with air rifles at 100 yards.

Old Crow - FWIW - I "think'' many of the competition BR shooters do size and sort pellets before their big matches. Not all, but most. I was cynical about this for quite a while, but the more I read on this forum, the more I find that many who do sort/size eliminate some flyers with careful selection of good pellets. BTW, Old Crow is the name of a Bourbon Whiskey as I recall. :)-

Tom






 
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Amazing shooting!



monster RD has BC of 0.03 so that kind of results are definitely possible! Great time to be an 177 airgunner with such awesome selection of ammo. HOWEVER, pass 50 yards I’ll just go straight to 12.5 grain NSA with BC of 0.07 which is twice more better! BUT these new high BC pallets are definitely defying what’s possible for pellets even though my opinion on them is why bother.😆



BTW your slug gun’s accuracy is straight up amazing too! 
 
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Absolutely stunning.

Mike is that with a one piece rest and electronic trigger?

Having any similar results in .177 16 grain at 50 yds with the higher speeds?

Probably gonna send you my Thomas next month for a six year rejuvenation with new seals, regulator rebuild or replacement, etc. I've probably sent close to 10K pellets down the barrel.

Accuracy had fallen off a bit with the latest batch of pellets, but found some from the old sleeve when I bought the gun. Shot a few of the old batch just yesterday and she was stacking them at 34 yds. That's the hardest part is getting that perfect batch of pellets

Tried some the knockout slugs also, but wasn't impressed.



Fuss
 
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Amazing shooting!



monster RD has BC of 0.03 so that kind of results are definitely possible! Great time to be an 177 airgunner with such awesome selection of ammo. HOWEVER, pass 50 yards I’ll just go straight to 12.5 grain NSA with BC of 0.07 which is twice more better! BUT these new high BC pallets are definitely defying what’s possible for pellets even though my opinion on them is why bother.
1f606.svg




BTW your slug gun’s accuracy is straight up amazing too!
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100% just trying to learn what I can

Can I just ask for a little clarification on the “why even bother” ?

Because they are almost a slug at that point? Or another reason?

I’m probably totally wrong, but hunting aside, isn’t one theory is that the heavier pellets could be effected by wind less? And because you can’t use slugs in normal EBR competition, trying to have a pellet that is “slug like” would be good?



Any newbie explanation would be so appreciated! Also, what gun / caliber was used in the OP?

regardless, amazing shooting!



best,

Sam


 
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I know you think I am being a dick.  I am not but I am not sure how to convince you of that.

I would wager that most other members likely concur.😄
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Well why don't you take a survey? You certainly aren't trying to be one, right?.

Cute dog, part yote and part huskey? ;)

NOTE: PM me you wouldn't want to start a urinary olympiad in another man's thread, would you?
 
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That’s incredible Mike! Please shoot that gun at EBR! Only wish I could get my RW shoot that consistently, but in all reality I never really expected to. I get those nagging flyers that ruin everything!, 50yds is even trying for this gun!, but it’s my all around fun gun so I live with it, I did not expect to win major competitions with it?

it also shoots the 25.4’s at 970 from the factory.

I do some pesting on my property and it’s flexible and quiet for that discipline 
 
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Thanks, Joe. Someone will shoot it at EBR, but it won’t be me. I personally believe that if someone had a gun that shot 1/2 Moa groups consistently and everyone else had 1 Moa consistent guns…..the 1/2 Moa guy wouldn’t have that significant of an advantage at events like EBR. The difference would probably show up in the 75y qualifying…but mostly disappear at 100.

Mike 
 
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Thanks, Joe. Someone will shoot it at EBR, but it won’t be me. I personally believe that if someone had a gun that shot 1/2 Moa groups consistently and everyone else had 1 Moa consistent guns…..the 1/2 Moa guy wouldn’t have that significant of an advantage at events like EBR. The difference would probably show up in the 75y qualifying…but mostly disappear at 100.

Mike
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Plus one! 👍. But given the choice ...
 
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My bet is that the big fliers you’ve experienced with the Monsters are from the barrel. That goes for all the guns that have had big fliers with Monsters. I personally feel like they are kind of a magic pellet.

Mike
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I’d like to believe that, and on the surface it does make sense. Until you realize that except for you, EVERYONE I know that shoots RDMs in competition experiences unexplained flyers. Regular rifled barrels, Polygonal barrels, FX STX barrels, they all do it. So for it to be true that it’s the barrel, we’d have to also buy into a theory that ALL barrels have either a manufacturing or design flaw. I’m not sure I’m ready to go there…

I’d like to see the groups above shot with a random off the shelf JSB RDMs or FX RDMs, from the tin, no sorting. No special cache of “good” RDMs, but RDMs like everyone else buys from the distributors. Even the barrels on your HPX guns throw the occasional flyer with RDMs. 
 
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Even with a good barrel and good pellets….you can still get flyers. About 50% of being consistently good at precision BR is learning how to keep your good equipment in the groove. That’s really difficult because it’s always changing as the barrel ages. What’s best today, usually won’t be the best a year from now. I’m pretty good at keeping things running well because I get a lot of practice at it….but most of my customers are not good at it at all. Even the experienced shooters usually will cling to an old cleaning habit even if it no longer produces good results because they just don’t know what else to do. They remember when it worked…and for lack of a better procedure…they just stay the course. Everyone wants a roadmap from me about how to care for their barrel…and they want it written in stone. That’s impossible. You have to be able to figure out why something isn’t working as well and do what needs to be done. I get calls all the time from someone telling me of great success they had at a match…then another call later down the road telling me about how the gun didn’t work. This always happens in a timeframe that has the successes early on with failures coming later. Something changed and they didn’t respond to the change. It’s always that easy. The Road map no longer gets them to the destination they want to go. Usually a slight adjustment to the cleaning procedure gets them back on track. 

I can only say what I do and what I advise my customers to do. I cannot recall any big flyers from the RD monsters that I’ve shot unless a barrel was out of shape. By that I mean past it’s ideal cleanliness zone. Barrels are very much individuals….meaning that no 2 are exactly alike. I’m very good at getting more out of a particular barrel than others can. That’s probably because I have the pickiest customers on Earth and I do it more than anyone else. For a time I used the same LW barrels as everyone else…but I got a lot better results from them because I was able to treat each barrel individually. That’s something a factory cannot afford to do. It’s also something that very few others know how to do.

Im curious why people think I tell my customers not to bother sorting for head size, weighing, or anything else?

Some of my customers listen to me on that, and some don’t. But I get to see the competition results and the sorters don’t win with any greater frequency….and they still have those nagging unexpected shots once in a while.

I do the things I do for my benefit and for the benefit of my customers. I don’t laboriously compile my data and arrange it in a palatable form for the world to see and debate. I use the test data simply to satisfy myself. If the rest of the world disagrees with my report of my findings…that’s ok.

Mike 
 
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Re. Cleaning and barrels. Not trying to change topic but wanted to share my own experience. 

The conventional wisdom seems to suggest not to clean the barrel until accuracy diminishes. However, I do notice with HP air rifles shooting higher velocities like 930+ FPS ( I.e., my RAW HM1000x .22 shooting RDs at 935-950 FPS and my Daystate Safari HP .22 shooting the RDs at 970 FPS ) DO require cleaning after 100+ pellets or JSB KO’s. I use Gunzilla for cleaning via Patchworm and ALWAYS get at least 2-4 7/8” sized dirty patches with SEVERAL pieces of lead sediments. First patch very visible, 2nd patch a bit less sediments. Then, patches 3 and 4 usually have much less or none. Normally max of 6 patches to clean. After cleaning both rifles they are very accurate but seem to fall off accuracy-wise after shooting between 100-200 pellets. Have been monitoring and doing this for two years. 

By contrast my FX Royale 400 .22 hardly ever needs cleaning shooting the 18’s at about 880 FPS with that great ST barrel. The Weihrauch .22 Carbine is about the same. The Taipan .25 cal also is pretty resilient. However, I don’t shoot any of those for BR past 50 yards, as they are mostly plinking and squirrel backyard guns. 

I usually stop any serious target shooting after 100 rounds because I can detect that my accuracy diminishes. Not always, but many times I know the barrel is dirty. 

I also get occasional flyers with the RDs with both the RAW and Safari; about 2-4 on average per EBR target with my RDs. But, I will confess. I don’t always know for certain if it was wind or a bad pellet? And, I do not sort or size ever. Not yet?

I am not a heavy barrel or gun tinkerer, so this whole pellet accuracy 100 yard issue is a constant puzzle. 


Tom 
 
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