PCP slug vs Rimfire - are we there yet?

[L.Leon]

While not claiming to know BCs, ballistics, etc. Why? Horses for courses. All the hard work to get a PCP to shoot competitively alongside a good .22 LR is it worth it? And to what end?, because the top rimfires shooters are going to smoke the top PCP shooters most, if not all of the time. Definitely a worthy goal to a very few. And to those who speak about regulation of Airguns? That horse left the barn long ago and Airguns are in fact regulated in many, many places already.

 

[elh0102]

While not claiming to know BCs, ballistics, etc. Why? Horses for courses. All the hard work to get a PCP to shoot competitively alongside a good .22 LR is it worth it? And to what end?, because the top rimfires shooters are going to smoke the top PCP shooters most, if not all of the time. Definitely a worthy goal to a very few. And to those who speak about regulation of Airguns? That horse left the barn long ago and Airguns are in fact regulated in many, many places already.

True, but in the US, the level of regulation is miniscule compared to fire arms, and even compared to airguns in other countries. I would like to see it remain so. 

 

[DeutschKSK]

My vudoo walks circles around my impact, which is why I no longer own an impact. These rifles are among the best of the best when It comes to rimfire. Now to build my self a centerfire.. 

 

[wWilliam]

!. Quite

2. I can use to hunt at my Hunt club, No rifles allowed.

3.More fun to shoot. No more gun powder for me.

4.I can hunt iguanas with no noise and legal. Try it with a 22 and see what happens.

5.Advances in airguns. Gunpowder is old tech. For me

6. Real men shoot airguns.

7.My friends say Damm, You shot that big hog with a BB gun/airgun

 

[Removed]

Most Airguns being produced today are not really designed from the ground up to shoot slugs. Old designs being modified to create enough power to shoot slugs, poor efficiency, long barrels etc, A few manufacturers are taking strides but I feel they might be going the wrong direction caliber wise. I think we will see a big step in technology very soon with something that may surpass the performance of a rimfire. 

 

[qball]

No, we are not "there yet" and why would we be. I shoot .17 HMR, .22 rimfire, .270 Savage, .22 Marauder, .25 Marauder, .25 FX Impact, .30 FX Impact. and .357 AAA Slayer. I am not sure why air rifles are constantly being compared to PBs. Please stop this nonsense. It's like comparing apples to oranges or bicycles to motorcycles. I like that PBs are firearms and that air rifles are not. I like that air rifles are quiet and lower powered, which is the reason I even fool with air rifles. It makes no sense to me to own a loud air rifle over a firearm. Air rifles and firearms both have their place as tools one can select for a given task.

what he said.



Can PCP get to low rimfire level? With a ton of money and work I think so but at what cost vs endless choices at 500 bucks! But I don’t think most of us want it be even near that level of power to be common or our little hobby will catch way to much flack! As it is, we are already only 1 accident away from catastrophe! Even with top tier PCP today there already isn’t much difference between a PCP and Rimfire if setup right. 



if I want to shoot far accurately then I’ll bust out the creedmore......when ammo can be found! Rimfires are like the redryders of the PB world anyways, so skip to big boy guns already. LOL 

 

[DeutschKSK]

.22lr is expanding as well, these are hand loads. 50gr bullets. 1400 fps .214 bc. Airguns won’t catch up to rimfire ever. 

 

[tommyb]

.22lr is expanding as well, these are hand loads. 50gr bullets. 1400 fps .214 bc. Airguns won’t catch up to rimfire ever. 

Funny - laughed when I saw this.

 

[woogie_man]

The trouble is that people make comparisons based on what they have experienced and believe that applies to all. So if you shot with your buddy who has a mediocre factory rimfire gun with garbage ammo and did better than him with your pcp....that must mean that pcps are more accurate than 22lr.

Mike

Was just going to comment on this.



My RedWolf will shoot far better than my buddies savage 22lr. But when I pull out my Sako Range 22lr... yeah not beating that at 100 yards. 100 yard groups with that rifle are stupid and boring to shoot. This is the same rifle that I have taken plenty of prairie dogs out past 250 yards. With the right ammo and all the time I have behind the rifle it is second nature to shoot at any distance.

People here are trying to compare a high end airgun with a low end firearm. These are not the same in any way. Compare a low priced gamo or something to an annie or a sako and see what happens. The firearm will win hands down every time. But compare your Mk3 with a crappy plastic savage and the airgun will win hands down.



Both have their place and purpose. What you are seeing on the tube of yous and other sites are after hours and hours of tuning, tweaking, and shooting. Your average person will not be able to do that.

 

[JimD]

Interesting that there are rim fire handloads. I still think, however, that the relatively low bc of airguns slugs is a self inflicted wound. Seems to me that if we carefully size the projectile to the bore we could have airgun slugs shaped like rimfire projectiles. We can also shoot them at similar velocity.

 

[tor47]

I am not a firearm expert, but I believe it is natural to compare some guns to a .22 rimfire, even other powder burners. Almost anyone have shot a rimfire in theire life. I remember when I was in my military service, and some guys where shooting a 9mm MP5 submachine gun. One guy said it is almost like shooting a rimfire, when in single shot. Even the 9mm MP5 obvious is more powerfull, and probably less acurate than a rimfire, it was the closest natural thing for him to compare to. Same probably goes for powerfull air rifles, as the further one step away from the pellet guns from the childhood, the next closest thing will be the .22 rimfire.

 

[bandg]

Interesting that there are rim fire handloads. I still think, however, that the relatively low bc of airguns slugs is a self inflicted wound. Seems to me that if we carefully size the projectile to the bore we could have airgun slugs shaped like rimfire projectiles. We can also shoot them at similar velocity.

I agree on the BC part but disagree with the rest. Maybe the best air guns can approach the performance of the best .22 rimfires but I doubt that airguns will ever reliably match the performance of "rimfires" that includes the .17 rimfires. Seems there will be an absolute energy level peak that will be hard for air guns to surpass.

 

[Centercut]

Most Airguns being produced today are not really designed from the ground up to shoot slugs. Old designs being modified to create enough power to shoot slugs, poor efficiency, long barrels etc, A few manufacturers are taking strides but I feel they might be going the wrong direction caliber wise. I think we will see a big step in technology very soon with something that may surpass the performance of a rimfire.

Interesting... I think trying to "fight fire with fire" as far as a .22 LR just won't cut it. What really baffles me is why a 40 grain .22 rimfire shoots so much better than a .22 or .25 PCP shooting an equivalent bullet at close to the same speed? And like most have said, it may be a lot of factors that just won't permit the current PCP technology to catch up. However, a new and revolutionary technology advancement in PCP could allow the PCP to jump up even with or surpass the rimfire. Who knows?

 

[acourvil]

.22lr is expanding as well, these are hand loads. 50gr bullets. 1400 fps .214 bc. Airguns won’t catch up to rimfire ever. 

I’ve been working with the 32gn bullets, don’t have a fast twist barrel yet (on order). Do you have a load you like yet? I have a “good enough for hunting” load of 2.2 Longshot with the 32gn (1 to 1-1/2 MOA @ 100 yards), hoping to squeeze out some more accuracy/consistency. Not sure how far we can go with the CCI brass.

 

[acourvil]

Most Airguns being produced today are not really designed from the ground up to shoot slugs. Old designs being modified to create enough power to shoot slugs, poor efficiency, long barrels etc, A few manufacturers are taking strides but I feel they might be going the wrong direction caliber wise. I think we will see a big step in technology very soon with something that may surpass the performance of a rimfire.

Interesting... I think trying to "fight fire with fire" as far as a .22 LR just won't cut it. What really baffles me is why a 40 grain .22 rimfire shoots so much better than a .22 or .25 PCP shooting an equivalent bullet at close to the same speed? And like most have said, it may be a lot of factors that just won't permit the current PCP technology to catch up. However, a new and revolutionary technology advancement in PCP could allow the PCP to jump up even with or surpass the rimfire. Who knows?

Rimfire propellant gives you 20-30k psi to work with, that’s a big advantage over 4.5k psi. 

 

[DeutschKSK]

I need a barrel that’s designed for these bullets. My twist rate is 1.16. Haven’t had the time to tinker a lot. Lapua center x is still my go to though. Or SK. 

 

[acourvil]

I have a fast twist barrel on order, hoping it will come next month. Supposedly Manson has reamer prints for chambers designed for the CURx bullets. I have been working with the 32gn bullet because I can use it for hunting (and the commercial non-lead 22 ammo is garbage).

 

[RAJOD]

My opinion is that airgunners mostly live in a self created fantasy world when it comes to accuracy. This is driven by all the nonsense videos, lucky groups, and forums. I’m glad that those guys stepped out of the Airgun bubble and got to see what the rimfire guys have been doing for a very long time.

Mike

LOL I agree and I have both PCP, Rimfire and center fire guns + I reload.

Within the airgun group there are people that swear their Springer air guns are just as precise. So there are many levels of fantasy and denial.

That said at least with Pellets my Daystate PCP will outshoot most rimfires at 50 yards and closer. You would need match rim fire ammo to be as consistent as standard JSB run of the mill pellets. We taught some gun newbs how to shoot at like 40 yards last week. Let them shoot PCPs, rimfires, pistols 223 etc.
The best groups were with PCP pretty much pellet on pellet. Why? Well no recoil, no sound, and probably due to less than match grade rim fire ammo.

Rimfire with the right ammo will most likely tie it at 25 yards and 50 then pull away after that. The run of the mill PCP will generally outshoot a run of the mill rimfire 50 yards and closer. The pellets and air per shot are more consistant than the powder they use in average rimfire ammo. I can go from baseball sized groups to dime sized at 50 yards just by chaning to a better rimfire ammo. 500 JSB pellets for $20.00 is going to outshoot the cheap box O 500 rimfire rounds. But if you trick out the rimfire and use more expensive ammo it will pass the PCP especially at 75+ yards.

The average unskilled shooter will put up better groups from a PCP 9 times out of 10 than a rim fire. Anything racoon sized or small and if its 50 yards or closer I'd use the PCP for a clean head shot. No worries about it traveling 1/2 mile.

PCP - Trigger at least on my Daystate and Brocock are way better than any trigger I've used on a rim fire or center fire. No comparison.
- Recoil
- Shot to shot air consistency
- Noise
- Weakness is the poor BC pellets in the wind.
- Barrel consistency seems great.

Rim fire - Better BC bucks the wind better
- Poorer shot to shot constancy due to power and maybe poor barrel harmonics
- Triggers generally not great have to spend some cash to improve even then not close to PCP triggers.


PCP good around the house taking out pests without alarming the neighbors.

Trying to make a PCP like a rimfire in power = more air, more expensive pellet/slugs, huge tanks on the gun. The point of diminishing returns kicks in. Just buy a decent rim fire. 400 yard PCP shots, yea there are you tube videos for that. I'll take a 223 or .204 ruger any day and twice on sundays over that.

 

[aldea6]

Interesting... I think trying to "fight fire with fire" as far as a .22 LR just won't cut it. What really baffles me is why a 40 grain .22 rimfire shoots so much better than a .22 or .25 PCP shooting an equivalent bullet at close to the same speed? And like most have said, it may be a lot of factors that just won't permit the current PCP technology to catch up. However, a new and revolutionary technology advancement in PCP could allow the PCP to jump up even with or surpass the rimfire. Who knows?

That's exactly what I think . Why same bullet , slug in this case , of same BC , weight and speed doesn't behave the same way when pushed by compressed air instead of hot gases?
Maybe some points have to be improved in air guns :better air dynamics ( air coming straight from rear of the projectile as the Edgun Leshyi does ) , shorter lock time , using a kind of electro-valve in place of the hammer system, another gas with less viscosity , maybe ...just a few ideas I was thinking of.

 

[steve123]

That's exactly what I think . Why same bullet , slug in this case , of same BC , weight and speed doesn't behave the same way when pushed by compressed air instead of hot gases?
Maybe some points have to be improved in air guns :better air dynamics ( air coming straight from rear of the projectile as the Edgun Leshyi does ) , shorter lock time , using a kind of electro-valve in place of the hammer system, another gas with less viscosity , maybe ...just a few ideas I was thinking of.

It probably has to do with the pressures airguns use vs the pressures firearms use, this is the elephant in the room to me. One of my slug rifles uses 2200 psi in the reg, whereas my 22rf probably uses 11,000 psi to push the bullet. Also the burnt gun powder acts as a lubricant and whatever the slick lube is in the higher quality 22rf ammo it works well for consistency.

Overall I think air rifles produce less ES than the better 22rf ammo's have, which can be 30-40 fps, but I also think that the higher pressures 22rf's operate at make resistance in the bore not so much an issue as with airguns.

That's all just a guess????