I'm interested in your opening comment that that the PCP is superior in accuracy. What data leads you to that conclusion? All match results data of which I am aware would strongly suggest the opposite.
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PCP slug vs Rimfire - are we there yet?
- Thread starter Centercut
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I'm interested in your opening comment that that the PCP is superior in accuracy. What data leads you to that conclusion? All match results data of which I am aware would strongly suggest the opposite.
Mike - good question.
I regularly shoot two Anschutz .22 LRs at both 50 and 100yard scoring targets. I use the EBR cards for 100 yards and the N50 11x 17” cards at 50 yards.
re. Anschutz rifles - I have a 64 MPR 64 action and a custom 1907 single load match 54 action with a tuner. Both guns have always out shot my RAW HM1000x .22 HP and my Red Wolf Safari .22 HP. I am relatively confident both air guns are accurate since I had Bobby C and AoA spend a fair amount of time with the Safari ( tuning, and lots of shooting ); and I have had pretty good luck with the NUAH 100 yard monthly challenges with the RAW in 2020. Try as I might, I cannot manage/read the wind as good with either JSB MRDs or JSB KO’s. By contrast, I CAN more accurately shoot with equivalent wind, with both 22LRs and good ammo ( RWS 50 for the 1907 and Center-X and Eley with the 64 MPR). My holds are much more predictable with the LRs. Not so with the two AirGuns.
As others have said ( and my own experience suggests the same ) and at least in my case, AirGuns cannot compete on par with the .22 LRs. Lots of VuDoo’s and custom .22LRs at my range, and many of those BR shooters sort of giggle when I put out targets at 75 and 100 yards.
I am enjoying the N50 airgun and 22 LR experiment and comparisons. They are very different platforms and I like them each based on their own merits.
I regularly shoot two Anschutz .22 LRs at both 50 and 100yard scoring targets. I use the EBR cards for 100 yards and the N50 11x 17” cards at 50 yards.
re. Anschutz rifles - I have a 64 MPR 64 action and a custom 1907 single load match 54 action with a tuner. Both guns have always out shot my RAW HM1000x .22 HP and my Red Wolf Safari .22 HP. I am relatively confident both air guns are accurate since I had Bobby C and AoA spend a fair amount of time with the Safari ( tuning, and lots of shooting ); and I have had pretty good luck with the NUAH 100 yard monthly challenges with the RAW in 2020. Try as I might, I cannot manage/read the wind as good with either JSB MRDs or JSB KO’s. By contrast, I CAN more accurately shoot with equivalent wind, with both 22LRs and good ammo ( RWS 50 for the 1907 and Center-X and Eley with the 64 MPR). My holds are much more predictable with the LRs. Not so with the two AirGuns.
As others have said ( and my own experience suggests the same ) and at least in my case, AirGuns cannot compete on par with the .22 LRs. Lots of VuDoo’s and custom .22LRs at my range, and many of those BR shooters sort of giggle when I put out targets at 75 and 100 yards.
I am enjoying the N50 airgun and 22 LR experiment and comparisons. They are very different platforms and I like them each based on their own merits.
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I do not shoot rimfires frequently. I shoot air rifles daily.
I have shared 100 yards groups I frequently make with my air rifles with a friend that shots frequently with .22 LR.
He is an experienced international hunter, so I suppose he can shot as good or as bad as myself.
At the same distance I'll show you my groups and I show you his:
My friend is very rich and I known his rifle is a good one as his scope and that he does not use it to lock the door of his ranch.
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I agree with many above. The rimfire wins hands down. Just when I get real proud of my PCP groups, I pull out my old CZ 452 and I am reminded of how far I have to go. If I feed it what it likes my groups at my usual 75 yards is one raggedy hole. No I can't pull that off every time. Still that is a "sporting" gun. Not a bench rest rifle.
Jim
Jim
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It's not that hard to build a high end .22LR that will shoot sub-MOA at 100yards with lot-selected ammo. The parts/ammo needed to do it are available, although some times there is a wait. It is expensive, but not that hard. It is very, very hard to buy/build/tune an air rifle and ammo that will shoot MOA at 100 yards.
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When zeroing my 30-06 I have never being able to put one shot in the same hole of the previous.
I can do it all day long with my PCP's under 80 yards.
I can do it all day long with my PCP's under 80 yards.
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As long as 22 slugs have dished back ends their BC will be worse than rimfire bullets. Big bore slugs do not always have the dish. Why do small bore slugs have dishes? I suspect it is the inconsistency of PCP barrel sizes but I don't really know. Hollow points also do not help BC. You could get a small caliber slug with the same BC as a rimfire bullet if you fix these two things.
Velocity of 1000 or even 1100 seems possible with high powered PCPs. So with the right slug and gun, you could get an equivalent projectile moving at the same velocity. That would, at least, avoid a wind drift advantage for the rim fire.
I also have not investigated velocity variation for both but I suspect the best PCPs are as consistent as rimfire match ammo.
Can the guns be tuned to be as consistent as the best rimfires, my guess is they can.
So if we want to bad enough it seems possible.
But for my shooting, I consider them equivalent in accuracy and my PCPs are much more backyard friendly. I am punching paper at 33 yards or less most of the time and occasionally taking a squirrel. If it wasn't so noisy my rimfire would work but instead I use a PCP. Mine are lower in power for sure but still have enough to do these tasks well. In non-bench rest guns not trying to hit things at ranges that in my opinion don't make a lot of sense for rimfires or PCPs, I think they work pretty similarly. I will try my PCPs at 100 yards just to see what I can do but I don't see myself ever trying to kill an animal at that range with either a rimfire or a PCP.
Velocity of 1000 or even 1100 seems possible with high powered PCPs. So with the right slug and gun, you could get an equivalent projectile moving at the same velocity. That would, at least, avoid a wind drift advantage for the rim fire.
I also have not investigated velocity variation for both but I suspect the best PCPs are as consistent as rimfire match ammo.
Can the guns be tuned to be as consistent as the best rimfires, my guess is they can.
So if we want to bad enough it seems possible.
But for my shooting, I consider them equivalent in accuracy and my PCPs are much more backyard friendly. I am punching paper at 33 yards or less most of the time and occasionally taking a squirrel. If it wasn't so noisy my rimfire would work but instead I use a PCP. Mine are lower in power for sure but still have enough to do these tasks well. In non-bench rest guns not trying to hit things at ranges that in my opinion don't make a lot of sense for rimfires or PCPs, I think they work pretty similarly. I will try my PCPs at 100 yards just to see what I can do but I don't see myself ever trying to kill an animal at that range with either a rimfire or a PCP.
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Small birds, rabbits, jack rabbits, 100 yards is a perfect distance.
Coyotes, racoons, 80 yards is perfect distance.
Javalina, turkeys 60 yards is perfect distance.
Deer under 50 yards is ethical.
All above hunting with the appropriate PCP Cal. But I want to say that my biggest PCP Cal is .357
Coyotes, racoons, 80 yards is perfect distance.
Javalina, turkeys 60 yards is perfect distance.
Deer under 50 yards is ethical.
All above hunting with the appropriate PCP Cal. But I want to say that my biggest PCP Cal is .357
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In my experiences with many higher end airguns and a $400 Tikka T1X .22lr there's still not much comparison. My Tikka is a laser and with SK standard+ ammo it does extremely well. It's not the best ammo available by far mid grade I'd say and same with the Tikka but still outshines higher end PCPs. My .22lr will outshoot my PCPs in most if not all conditions at 50yds+ especially if wind is present. I've yet to get a PCP with slugs get anywhere close to the same accuracy as the Tikka. So much so I gave up on getting airguns to shoot slugs and went back to pellets only as that's why I got into airguns in the first place. Can't shoot my .22lr on the dairy safely but I can shoot my .22 PCP on the dairy safely.
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When I wrote the OP, I was thinking high end .22 rimfire such as the Vudoo Gunworks, CZ 457, Bergara B14R, or even a Ruger Precision RImfire.... None of these cost more than a fraction of an FX Impact M3 dressed out... I was looking at overall gun performance in a PRS or NRL-22 type of shooting (or hunting), and not thinking of strictly benchrest unlimited class rifles. I also didn't think it would result in any sort of argument, since from what I posted, its easy to see that the "high end" rimfires completely and totally dominated the very best that the airgun world could offer in a Precision Rifle situation...
My question was more along the lines of what or how do you think that PCP will close that gap? And if we didn't want to invite comparison between the two, we wouldn't have started shooting bullets in the first place and would have stuck with pellets... A 40 grain bullet is a 40 grain bullet, so why does the rimfire shoot them so much better?
My question was more along the lines of what or how do you think that PCP will close that gap? And if we didn't want to invite comparison between the two, we wouldn't have started shooting bullets in the first place and would have stuck with pellets... A 40 grain bullet is a 40 grain bullet, so why does the rimfire shoot them so much better?
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The trouble is that people make comparisons based on what they have experienced and believe that applies to all. So if you shot with your buddy who has a mediocre factory rimfire gun with garbage ammo and did better than him with your pcp....that must mean that pcps are more accurate than 22lr.
Mike
Mike
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I have never compete with rifles on any kind of competition like PCP EBT , nor with rimfire.
I have never use a bipod, nor a cushion to support my rifles.
So it is clear that I can not talk about anything else excluding what I have seen.
This is a forum on which people who are experts can give me the opportunity to learn.
So, next time I post something, I will be careful to include the words: "In my experience" which by definition is really limited.
I have never use a bipod, nor a cushion to support my rifles.
So it is clear that I can not talk about anything else excluding what I have seen.
This is a forum on which people who are experts can give me the opportunity to learn.
So, next time I post something, I will be careful to include the words: "In my experience" which by definition is really limited.
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Not there yet, and why should they be? I have airguns to shoot pellets at shorter ranges, and compete with them in short range BR, they are very accurate (within their limits) quite and fun, this allows you to shoot in areas you normally wouldn’t or couldn’t.
If I want to shoot past 50yds with precision and confidence it will be with a rimfire at the local range or a friends farm.
I’m not interested in trying to make a “airgun” into a rimfire!
If I want to shoot past 50yds with precision and confidence it will be with a rimfire at the local range or a friends farm.
I’m not interested in trying to make a “airgun” into a rimfire!
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"Quote from Jim D"
"As long as 22 slugs have dished back ends their BC will be worse than rimfire bullets. Big bore slugs do not always have the dish. Why do small bore slugs have dishes? I suspect it is the inconsistency of PCP barrel sizes but I don't really know. Hollow points also do not help BC. You could get a small caliber slug with the same BC as a rimfire bullet if you fix these two things.
Velocity of 1000 or even 1100 seems possible with high powered PCPs. So with the right slug and gun, you could get an equivalent projectile moving at the same velocity. That would, at least, avoid a wind drift advantage for the rim fire.
I also have not investigated velocity variation for both but I suspect the best PCPs are as consistent as rimfire match ammo.
Can the guns be tuned to be as consistent as the best rimfires, my guess is they can.
So if we want to bad enough it seems possible.
But for my shooting, I consider them equivalent in accuracy and my PCPs are much more backyard friendly. I am punching paper at 33 yards or less most of the time and occasionally taking a squirrel. If it wasn't so noisy my rimfire would work but instead I use a PCP. Mine are lower in power for sure but still have enough to do these tasks well. In non-bench rest guns not trying to hit things at ranges that in my opinion don't make a lot of sense for rimfires or PCPs, I think they work pretty similarly. I will try my PCPs at 100 yards just to see what I can do but I don't see myself ever trying to kill an animal at that range with either a rimfire or a PCP".
I've never seen a pulled LR rimfire bullet that did not have a dish. Just say'n
KnifeMaker
"As long as 22 slugs have dished back ends their BC will be worse than rimfire bullets. Big bore slugs do not always have the dish. Why do small bore slugs have dishes? I suspect it is the inconsistency of PCP barrel sizes but I don't really know. Hollow points also do not help BC. You could get a small caliber slug with the same BC as a rimfire bullet if you fix these two things.
Velocity of 1000 or even 1100 seems possible with high powered PCPs. So with the right slug and gun, you could get an equivalent projectile moving at the same velocity. That would, at least, avoid a wind drift advantage for the rim fire.
I also have not investigated velocity variation for both but I suspect the best PCPs are as consistent as rimfire match ammo.
Can the guns be tuned to be as consistent as the best rimfires, my guess is they can.
So if we want to bad enough it seems possible.
But for my shooting, I consider them equivalent in accuracy and my PCPs are much more backyard friendly. I am punching paper at 33 yards or less most of the time and occasionally taking a squirrel. If it wasn't so noisy my rimfire would work but instead I use a PCP. Mine are lower in power for sure but still have enough to do these tasks well. In non-bench rest guns not trying to hit things at ranges that in my opinion don't make a lot of sense for rimfires or PCPs, I think they work pretty similarly. I will try my PCPs at 100 yards just to see what I can do but I don't see myself ever trying to kill an animal at that range with either a rimfire or a PCP".
I've never seen a pulled LR rimfire bullet that did not have a dish. Just say'n
KnifeMaker
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But then again,
5 at 96 yards, my hand cast hp, 38 gr 990's fps. Just over 1/4". .25 Uragan standard (.2416"), with cold hammer forged and factory lapped and polished bore. (Standard).
Raptor magnum with fitted, de-choked FX Superior .22 bbl. 34 gr hand cast. Hand lapped by myself and polished. 960's, 80 yards. 11 shots. One to settle the reg, 10 on target.
Knife
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Giant UPSIDE.............. We can use a Moderator Legally! That in and of itself is worth it! High end FX's can out power a .22 Cal. short and be Quieter in the process with better trajectory and accuracy...So...Sign me up! Stealth rules.
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I personally hope we never get to where an airgun is the same as powder. I think the big bores like the Airforce Texan are really pushing it when it comes to the firearms exclusion. This is my opinion only. I don't want my freedom to buy whatever airgun I want, the pellets or slugs I want and have then shipped to my house. My state is constantly looking for reasons why airguns should be classified as firearms. I know move to a different state (I wish it were that simple). I think it is beneficial that air will always be less than powder, at least it should be. Sure get it close, but not cross the line. I think this should be done purposely by the manufacturers. I think there is a line they would keep behind for the consumer to enjoy less government oversight. Little less for a little more.
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Mike
I am not the guy who can answer, but I would offer this.
I don’t think PCPs will close the gap. Why???
because as AG technology gets better so does RF technology. I honestly believe the RF platform and technology is better than AG now, and will continue to be into the future.
I can’t technically explain all the reasons as to why, but I believe this to be true. I believe that a RF can shoot a 40 g bullet better and more accurately than a high end AG with the same weight and BC.
Might get flamed, .... but I feel that PCPs will not equal RF at 50, 75, 100 or 200 yards anytime soon.
Like I said, I love both platforms but for different reasons. I want both in my safe!
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tommyb:
I too, am in a BAD State. I reside in the State of Insanity, CALIFORNIA, as such, if the man shows up at your house in the city, asking what are you shoot'n and you say a .22 Rim Fire you will get a free ride to the station. If you reply it is just a pellet gun you might get a pass......If you have a Mod on your pellet gun you would most probably get a pass as well.........a Mod on a .22 cal rimfire w/o a license you will get TWO rides to the different stations.
I too, am in a BAD State. I reside in the State of Insanity, CALIFORNIA, as such, if the man shows up at your house in the city, asking what are you shoot'n and you say a .22 Rim Fire you will get a free ride to the station. If you reply it is just a pellet gun you might get a pass......If you have a Mod on your pellet gun you would most probably get a pass as well.........a Mod on a .22 cal rimfire w/o a license you will get TWO rides to the different stations.
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