PCP slug vs Rimfire - are we there yet?

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Centercut

Centercut

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Despite progress made in PCP shooting slugs over the past couple of years, are they comparable overall to .22 LR Rimfires? Since were talking state of the art, let’s compare a high end RF like a Vudoo with a .25 or .22 Impact shooting high BC slugs, both guns with top ranked shooters.

Edit: I was mainly talking about general use repeaters like that used for Precision Rifle and/or NRL22, or hunting. These are more of a type gun that can be carried and shot in the field... my bad for not being more specific...

I’d say after looking at the NRL-22 Championships, the answer is obvious - we’re not there yet. One of the best Airgun shooters in the Country, shooting arguably the best high power PCP slug gun currently available with custom slugs, finished behind 110 shooters with mostly Open Class rimfires. The other three Airgun shooters were much further down the standings. 
Although we aren’t there yet, will we be eventually? Why or why not?

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/nrl-22-championships-2020-2021/
 
As much as I want to say I hope so, part of me hopes not. I feel that as air rifles start to edge closer and closer to powder from an accuracy/power standpoint, we will start to get regulated as such.

Then bye bye weird semi-loophole on moderators, price on ammo goes up with restrictions, and definitely won't be able to backyard plink any longer. 

I could be missing your point entirely, but seeing I just went through the first steps of regulation with my fpv quadcopters, "drones", which is essentially causing me to get out of that hobby...I don't wish the same for air guns. 


 
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We are not there...and I don’t think the mainstream Airguns are even close.

What most do not understand is that none of those vudoos would run with the custom unlimited rimfire guns in a big BR match. I say that because there are none of them ever in the top at big BR matches. NRL matches are a poor platform to compare accuracy. Somewhat akin to judging Airgun accuracy at a ft match rather than a br match at a precision distance.

My opinion is that airgunners mostly live in a self created fantasy world when it comes to accuracy. This is driven by all the nonsense videos, lucky groups, and forums. I’m glad that those guys stepped out of the Airgun bubble and got to see what the rimfire guys have been doing for a very long time.

If you ever attend a Rimfire BR match, you will get a good idea of what those guys think about guys shooting pellet BR matches at 100y. They are laughing uncontrollably. Their equipment is way beyond the capability of air and they don’t even consider the idea of shooting at 100. It’s absolute nonsense to them....and for good reason.

I shot ARA rimfire BR matches this past weekend with air. I averaged 1950 out of 2500. I won one match (due to low attendance) and finished last or close to last on the others. I had tons of shots that they call line lickers. They means they are so close to the line that you really can’t call them through the scope. To improve enough to be competitive at ARA BR matches is a daunting task, and I’m WAY ahead of any other air platform.


The question is...will mainstream air continue to reside in their bubble....or will they get out, look around, take stock of reality, and allow themselves to be humbled?

Mike 
 
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The beauty of the airgun (US) is that it is not held in the same regard as a powder arm. I shoot them at my house and business, and know that they do not raise an eyebrow.

Just as non gun people have no idea what a "real" gun is capable of, and are also just as ignorant to their limitations, I would always hope that the uninformed continue to consider air guns as a very limited platform. 

Air gunners are not going to get any respect (in a broader sense) and that is great. 
 
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I dont think we are yet. In a standard pcp atleast. I got “ close” using nsa 43.5 .25 cal at 1030 fps though. But just wasnt consistent enough.
Click to expand...

And even then, it's only relative to a small bore RF. Even the state of California isn't afraid of those (yet).

The powder arms utilize a chemical reaction to push the projectile, we are using compressed air with all the limitations it entails. It's too much of a handicap to overcome at any level past a conventional RF. 

Of course the big bores change things a bit, but even then the limitations are even more pronounced when it comes to lethality.
 
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We are not there...and I don’t think the mainstream Airguns are even close.

What most do not understand is that none of those vudoos would run with the custom unlimited rimfire guns in a big BR match. I say that because there are none of them ever in the top at big BR matches. NRL matches are a poor platform to compare accuracy. Somewhat akin to judging Airgun accuracy at a ft match rather than a br match at a precision distance.

My opinion is that airgunners mostly live in a self created fantasy world when it comes to accuracy. This is driven by all the nonsense videos, lucky groups, and forums. I’m glad that those guys stepped out of the Airgun bubble and got to see what the rimfire guys have been doing for a very long time.

If you ever attend a Rimfire BR match, you will get a good idea of what those guys think about guys shooting pellet BR matches at 100y. They are laughing uncontrollably. Their equipment is way beyond the capability of air and they don’t even consider the idea of shooting at 100. It’s absolute nonsense to them....and for good reason.

I shot ARA rimfire BR matches this past weekend with air. I averaged 1950 out of 2500. I won one match (due to low attendance) and finished last or close to last on the others. I had tons of shots that they call line lickers. They means they are so close to the line that you really can’t call them through the scope. To improve enough to be competitive at ARA BR matches is a daunting task, and I’m WAY ahead of any other air platform.


The question is...will mainstream air continue to reside in their bubble....or will they get out, look around, take stock of reality, and allow themselves to be humbled?

Mike 

VERY good post!!!
Click to expand...
 
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I dont think we are yet. In a standard pcp atleast. I got “ close” using nsa 43.5 .25 cal at 1030 fps though. But just wasnt consistent enough.
Click to expand...

And even then, it's only relative to a small bore RF. Even the state of California isn't afraid of those (yet).

The powder arms utilize a chemical reaction to push the projectile, we are using compressed air with all the limitations it entails. It's too much of a handicap to overcome at any level past a conventional RF. 

Of course the big bores change things a bit, but even then the limitations are even more pronounced when it comes to lethality.
Click to expand...

Good point, I was stuck on .22lr but looking at the .17hmr, not even remotely close!
 
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Interesting question, and I have mixed feelings. Some believe that all human endeavor is defined by the analogy of the man in the water, you either swim forward or sink, no holding still. Match .22 rimfire ammo is basically a 40 grain bullet at around 1050 fps. I have no interest in HP air rifles, so I don't even know how close we are, ballistically, to that performance. I see no design limitation that would prevent it, and it would maintain the significant advantage of removing some challenging variables to RF performance; i.e., primer, powder, case, and their consistent, precision assembly. For me, air rifles have always been, and shall remain a different sport vs rimfire. Is there any compelling, logical reason to maintain that separation? Maybe not. Until recently, I never gave much thought to the potential of air rifles being brought under the Alphabet org "firearm" definition, and thus all the trappings of the applicable laws, rules and regulations. Given current political trends, and the constantly increasing public disclosure of higher powered air rifles, I think the risk of such regulatory intervention is growing. In fact, absent a reversal of the current growth of the HP air rifle sport, I believe regulation is not only possible, but inevitable. I hope my wife is right, she says I'm always wrong!
 
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We are not there...and I don’t think the mainstream Airguns are even close.

What most do not understand is that none of those vudoos would run with the custom unlimited rimfire guns in a big BR match. I say that because there are none of them ever in the top at big BR matches. NRL matches are a poor platform to compare accuracy. Somewhat akin to judging Airgun accuracy at a ft match rather than a br match at a precision distance.

My opinion is that airgunners mostly live in a self created fantasy world when it comes to accuracy. This is driven by all the nonsense videos, lucky groups, and forums. I’m glad that those guys stepped out of the Airgun bubble and got to see what the rimfire guys have been doing for a very long time.

If you ever attend a Rimfire BR match, you will get a good idea of what those guys think about guys shooting pellet BR matches at 100y. They are laughing uncontrollably. Their equipment is way beyond the capability of air and they don’t even consider the idea of shooting at 100. It’s absolute nonsense to them....and for good reason.

I shot ARA rimfire BR matches this past weekend with air. I averaged 1950 out of 2500. I won one match (due to low attendance) and finished last or close to last on the others. I had tons of shots that they call line lickers. They means they are so close to the line that you really can’t call them through the scope. To improve enough to be competitive at ARA BR matches is a daunting task, and I’m WAY ahead of any other air platform.


The question is...will mainstream air continue to reside in their bubble....or will they get out, look around, take stock of reality, and allow themselves to be humbled?

Mike
Click to expand...

100% this right here I shoot a high end rimfire .22 for years and on my best air rifle day it’s pretty much my worse day with the rim fire.
 
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 They are different and are judged differently,what comes easy for some s much harder for others,but the goal remains the same.

My goal is to get my air rifle to shoot the best it can,which is a lot harder to do than my .22 rimfire...

I will say that it is easier to get a .22 rimfire to shoot accurately than a air rifle,plus .22 rimfire target rifles have been around longer than 94.37% of shooters.

The great underdog,we are always pulling for it to outperform the "other" guy....


 
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Just thought I would throw this out there but I’m pretty sure air rifles have been around longer then the .22 rimfire. The Lewis and Clark expedition had an air rifle which was attributed to them not being killed by the Indians since they were so impressed with it once they saw it used. Also Napoleon used air rifles to win a few battles against the English. I believe these were all considered big bore air rifles in the .40 and up category.
 
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I don't even WANT to get there. 

I got into air rifles BECAUSE they were air rifles and I like their advantages and accept their shortcomings. They are a different tool than a rimfire. 

If you want rimfire performance then just get one and be happy. 

Reminds me of the guy trying to drive nails with a pair of pliers when his hammer is in the box 10 steps away. 

I just dont see the appeal in trying to do bigger and bigger things with air. It will bring nothing but "almost as good" performance as what's already there with powder, and if you get there, the Feds will take it all away from you and we will all be "on the books" just like firearms are. 


 
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Although Mike Thomas has already chimed in, I'll throw this link in the mix:

airgun benchrest

and add that airguns are unlikely to ever over-take rimfire, which will never overtake centerfire. Pick your poison to fit your needs, just don't pretend it's something it's not. Airguns have to work *hard* to get anything like the power of a rimfire, which is anemic by centerfire standards. And while power isn't everything, there *is* a correlation with accuracy, all else being properly attended to. 

Personally, I like airguns specifically *for* their shortcomings: light projectile and low ballistic coefficient. I can shoot airgun, safely, in my backyard! I could probably get away with rimfire too, if I were careful, but with pellets it's safe even if I screw up. Most of my shooting is inside of 40 yards. I should mention that, although I'm intrigued by them, the aforementioned is why I don't own a "big bore" - too many of the problems attendant with powder-burners, but with little benefit.

GsT
 
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No, we are not "there yet" and why would we be. I shoot .17 HMR, .22 rimfire, .270 Savage, .22 Marauder, .25 Marauder, .25 FX Impact, .30 FX Impact. and .357 AAA Slayer. I am not sure why air rifles are constantly being compared to PBs. Please stop this nonsense. It's like comparing apples to oranges or bicycles to motorcycles. I like that PBs are firearms and that air rifles are not. I like that air rifles are quiet and lower powered, which is the reason I even fool with air rifles. It makes no sense to me to own a loud air rifle over a firearm. Air rifles and firearms both have their place as tools one can select for a given task.


 
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Speaking in terms of FPE I believe airguns are beyond what a 1050fps 40gr match rimfire can do. When it comes to accuracy though, the powder burner may have the advantage from a calmer firing cycle. Not much has to happen to set a rimfire cartridge in action. Just a slight hit on the edge of the brass from a firing pin...and I'm sure most match grade guns have that strike dialed down to the very minimum. Most of our best PCP's, capable of the power to do well at 100 yards, have alot going on between the pull of the trigger and the pellet/slug leaving the barrel. I think we airgunners will always have that slight disadvantage. At least that's my way of thinking.

Best Regards,

Glenn in Texas
 
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