PCP Expectations w/ Slugs…

[Centercut]

I've been thinking about this for some time, and thought I'd bring it up here. We all see the YouTubers, IG'ers, and AGN keyboarders shooting tiny groups at hundred(s) of yards, or head shot pigeons out past 200+ yards. There are a few things that aren't said. One would think that all you need to do is buy the gun, air it up, load the magazine, and start shooting. Some even show the new gun received, taken out of the box and shooting one hole cloverleafs with slugs at 100 yards five minutes later. ROFLMAO. Yeah, right. And I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you...

Those that have gone through this process know that it doesn't happen t hat way, but Newbys might not know better and have unrealistic expectations. Do I have guns that will hit a Grackle or Ground Squirrel at 200 yards? Yup. Did it happen overnight, in a day or two? Nope. Not even close. I have a .22 EDgun R3 Long that is good to about 175 yards with .217 NSA 20.2 gr slugs, and a .25 Impact good to about 225 yards with NSA 43.5 gr slugs. BOTH took considerable time and testing to get there!

You might think that all barrels are the same? Nope. That all guns of the same make and model shoot the same? Nope. Here's a lesson learned with an FX Maverick. I somehow got it in my head that .22 "should" be better than .25 or .30 for shooting slugs and even posted on AGN about my choice. 

https://www.airgunnation.com/reply/1149464/

So I did my research and talked to a few guys that had done VERY well in the Slug Challenge at RMAC 2021. And got all the pertinent info, such as barrel liner, hammer weight, reg. pressure, size and weight of slugs, moderator, etc. EVERY DETAIL that they were using in their own guns to be successful. So I put my Maverick together, Superior Heavy liner, .30 cal heavy hammer, reg pressure at 150 bar, Ernest brass transfer port, Huma pin probe, FX CF liner, tuned for .2165 NSA 31.2 grain slugs at 950 FPS. SHOULD have been perfect.  LOL. Not even close!!! Can't hold a half dollar group at 50 yards and can't keep it inside the 8 ring at 100 yards.

My point in all of this is even if you THINK you know, until you actually do it you really don't. Apparently from what I can gather, the 600mm Superior Heavy liners in .22 caliber have had manufacturing issues for the past 6 to 9 months. I even heard second hand about a VERY good shooter that got 5 or 6 .22 Superior Heavy in 600mm, and every one was a non-shooter.. I do have an older Slug A liner in .22 caliber and 600mm that I will try. I w anted the gun in 600 not 700 since I wanted a shorter more maneuverable gun, and not as much barrel whip and harmonic issues. Anyway, just throwing it out there for those that want to shoot slugs. Sometimes you might get it right first try, but generally it'll take a lot more effort than you think...

 

[Corvid_hunter]

Good post. I wonder if you would have better luck with your groups shooting into mud.

 

[FelixS]

Timely post - for me, centercut. I am now just at that stage of understanding the relevance of these elements, that as a whole, are all a piece of the jigsaw puzzle, as it were. Things that one can only really begin to understand after many, many pew pews.

I started out as a point and shoot, and that worked for me for the first part of this journey. What the heck have I gotten myself into?

 

[smokeOnBro55]

do you mean like this .

493 yds with a JMS Asperly Aimless 30 cal .. one hole group

fired using my Patent Pending "Vortex Nose" slugs. Thats a radiused hollow point drilled all the way thru. This creates a Vortex that INCREASES velocity the further it goes.

Now gravity CAN be defeated

had to laugh as the new media keeps reporting that China is testing hypersonic missiles. What they are actually reading is me testing the new slugs 

 

[Solo1]

i know what you’re saying exactly centercut. its funny almost how 2 airguns set up the same way can shoot so differently. its amazing too how expensive it gets and how quickly trying to get a perfect setup almost seems like you have to be some kind of savant engineer or something lol. if i were u id try a 700 superior just cause thats the 1 barrel i’ve personally had the least trouble in trying to get to shoot well

 

[Peashooter]

I am a bit surprised my .177 Maverick are so pellet fussy,,,,, meaning that now after several months,,,,, granted not shooting a lot due to weather, well so far i have only managed to get beasts to run well,,,,,, which is okay for 50 M, but much more and i am told the beasts will fall apart.

13.43 grain KO slugs look promising but i have not worked with those.

Monster redesigns, seem to shoot well around 550 FPS,,,,,, but really that is slower than i would like to shoot, but any faster and grouping fall apart in a random manner.

JSB Heavy i have not been able to get to shoot well either, but i have not given them my all due to the weather and my focus on the MRD i really really wanted to shoot.

I now have a few H&N to try out, but cant do anything serious this time of the year thanks to the weather, and i also want to try my 12.5 and 15 grain NSA slugs.

It seem to me you have to tweak a whole lot on the Maverick,,,,,, which are also okay, part of the reason i got it, now i just wish it had the M3 dials too, CUZ there will be a need for a game / setting book for sure. CUZ my hope to be able to shoot some heavy pellets, and then some slugs without messing with the "dials" that is clearly not going to happen.

And i will have to put a caliper in my range bag too, something i did not expect was needed.

But i am going to pick up a more forgiving gun ( CZ barrel ) and i have a sneaky suspicion that one will see a lot more action.

 

[Ezana4CE]

@centercut Looks like sound advice to me. I recently started to dabble more with slugs so some of this info is on time. Thanks. 

 

[DonaAna1]

ve that is shooting 2moa at 100 yards. Now I am in the process of tweeking it. Shooting 28.6 gr neilsens at 948.

Reg set at 150/130. Shot count is horrible at about 25.

But, I have a wildcat that shoots 1.5 moa at 100 yards with 18.1 heavies. WHEN the wind isn't blowing. Which is about 4 days a month! I am practicing in the wind.



I may give up on the Maverick and switch back to pellets.



Edited, sorry I missed a 1.

 

[dizzums]

i dont expect more out of them than any other gun, and if somebody lacks the experience in the field i could see maybe having expectations way out in left field .. truth is most powder burners or anything else wont headshoot a squirrel at 100+ let alone with dynamic changing distances .. sure you can dial it in for the camera with a highend gun .. chances of you hitting small game in the head though with a random 100+ single shot with anything is close to zero unless you have lots of experience and a well sorted out setup ... but the average pcp with alittle time put in will be real effective to 50-60 .. better than the average 22lr id say .. thats realistic .. pre sighted out targets sure a high end gun on a bench can go alot further with alot of time and money invested, knock yourself out ..out in the field that setup wont have much if any advantage over a marauder fresh out of the box imo ...

 

[elh0102]

Whether work or fun, I have learned over the last 70 years, there is no substitute for experience. Learn the basics, then do the work, and tune out all the static, which is abundant.

 

[sltech]

Corvidhunter......LMAO. I wonder where old oneshot is these days......very bland and boring on here since his untimely departure. Things just started to get fired up . Maybe he will reappear in a reincarnated form?

 

[Alan]

Did you clean the liner before you used it? My .25 caliber Superior liner had some sort of debris in the barrel, just before the choke. Couldn't tell what it was even with the barrel scope on 25 power. It took a bronze brush a few strokes to get rid of it, and the groups dropped by a third. After about 150 rounds, it settled down to dime-sized groups. Call it "break in!"

 

[Centercut]

Did you clean the liner before you used it? My .25 caliber Superior liner had some sort of debris in the barrel, just before the choke. Couldn't tell what it was even with the barrel scope on 25 power. It took a bronze brush a few strokes to get rid of it, and the groups dropped by a third. After about 150 rounds, it settled down to dime-sized groups. Call it "break in!"

Thanks... All my barrels/liners get the full polish treatment prior to first install. That includes brass brush and JB Bore paste polishing. It looks like a mirror...

 

[bubblerboy64]

What has not been mentioned is the shooters abilities. And in this case I’m not talking about the abilities behind the gun. Which goes without saying There is A Lot Involved in shooting . Science, math and probably as much as anything the ability to deal with frustration. It takes a person who is willing to DO THE WORK. It’s also helpful if your not an egomaniac and can humbly ask for and accept help. We all know that there are claims made and fish stories told which are indicators of persons who in most cases are going to fail in their efforts. I’m a pretty average shooter but have some friends who are pretty damned good and who I’ve been able to learn from. My shooting has improved because I’ve availed myself of some opportunities to learn. And I think I’ve helped others some too. I am aware that I can become frustrated. The guys that I know who are REALLY good go about shooting in a scientific way and they really put in the effort and time. And needless to say lots of money . I was talking to one fellow who is a world class bench rest shooter gunsmith stock maker. He goes so far as to weigh his primers. He drives 45 minuets one way to test fire 10 or 15 rounds a couple times a week. The time and money he has invested over the years? I’ll bet it would be in the hundreds of thousands. Does he deserve his good scores. You bet . He does the work . And I’ve seen him get visibly up set and frustrated With the internet and YouTube there is an amazing amount of information out there. There also is a lot of misinformation which you have to be able to sort thru. You can buy good equipment but that’s only a part of it . 
after saying all of that there are naturals who seem to accomplish things with less effort. I’m certainly not one If you see guys posting groups at 25 , 50 and 100 and they are all the same size. Which we have seen you can be pretty sure it’s BS. Most of us can shoot respectable groups in dead calm but “reading” conditions that takes everything I’ve mentioned and can certainly be frustrating I think the most difficult of it all. 

 

[SlaMike]

Did you clean the liner before you used it? My .25 caliber Superior liner had some sort of debris in the barrel, just before the choke. Couldn't tell what it was even with the barrel scope on 25 power. It took a bronze brush a few strokes to get rid of it, and the groups dropped by a third. After about 150 rounds, it settled down to dime-sized groups. Call it "break in!"

Thanks... All my barrels/liners get the full polish treatment prior to first install. That includes brass brush and JB Bore paste polishing. It looks like a mirror...

Would you please share the procedure for polishing barrels, i.e. do you take liner off of rifle or just polishing as you going through the cleaning. 

 

[L.Leon]

My expectations for me and my PCPs is 1/2" to 3/4" groups from 40 to 60 yards in good conditions and me on point. Consistently accurate long range shooting of over 100 yards with PCPs? Very few have the talent, equipment and drive to achieve that. I agree with @centercut, it's important that those that do shoot long range with consistent accuracy should emphasize the work it took to get there.

 

[Gerry52]

Great post Mike! Very similar to one I posted last year about Newbies (& not-so-Newbies) expectations when buying top tier equipment & believing that spending top tier dollars ASSURES them of being a top tier shooter immediately. Nothing but time investment into this sport/hobby/craft (whatever you want to call it) makes one a great shooter. Time to get to know the idiosyncrasies of one's equipment, technique, surroundings, atmospheric conditions & a hundred other things is the investment one HAS to make to get the proficiency most of us desire. There was a post about a month ago, I forget by who, about what a piece-o-crap his new top tier gun was because it wouldn't group at 100 yds like videos he watched. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! Just because you spend the big bucks doesn't mean you are now a Benchrest or FT champion! There are NO SHORTCUTS to proficiency in any endeavor. If you're too impatient to endure the all encompassing learning curve that comes with this activity & every new piece of equipment that you might buy (even if they're "identical" guns) maybe it's time to take up knitting! The more complicated & capable our airguns get, the more we, as shooters, have to grow, as uncomfortable as that might be. There's no growing in a "comfort zone" & no comfort in a "growing zone". That's just REALITY!!!

 

[mtnGhost]

Yeah, I remember the first time I was bamboozled with PCP expectations. The South African guys were pumping videos of shooting birds at 150y with 23gr NSAs out of their MKI Impacts. They were shooting 930-950fps, but I couldn't for the life of me get mine over 900. 

So I called up FX support and they connected me on the phone with a famous airgun tuner employee (whom everyone has heard of). I explained the issue and he revealed the power tuning modifications that he made to the South Africans' rifles. He had built their rifles / fabricated the mods, so no wonder my new Impact wasn't shooting as hot as theirs. Stupid me for not realizing at the time that there were dishonest internet influencers in the AG industry!

I had gunsmithing knowledge from a previous life, so one day I just got over my apprehension of modifying high pressure PCPs and started building in my own modifications to get the performance out of my rifles that I originally expected (when I dropped over $2K in the first place). It's been a personally rewarding experience, but very time a consuming and expensive process.

 

[biohazardman]

 

Yup it can take some time to get things just right.

But now and then we get lucky.

I changed out my Impact 700mm .25 slug A barrel that was shooting several slugs less than MOA @ 100 yards for the most part to a 500mm .177 one day. I simply turned the hammer wheel from 15 to 1 and it shot one hole groups at 50 yards.

It took me over 500 shots to tune the .25 to shoot that well and I just lucked out on the .177.

I am getting better though I can usually tune for a different projectile or caliber now in less than 300 shots.

Got my new ,30 M3 tuned for less than MOA at 100 in about four hours and 200shots. Still it did take some time.

 

[Bigragu]

Being that the OP and others on here are to me, “ the AGN voices of reason” backed by experience, it goes to show that the “share your tunes” topics as of late are really just a ball of frustration waiting to happen. You click on 75-80% of the participants and see post counts of 2, 8, 40, which tells me they are new folks that had the luxury of starting off with one of, if not the, most complicated guns ever produced, and all want to get on this bandwagon of exchanging tunes with one another. And I’m not talking like a GLEM, an EDOSAN, HEAVY IMPACT(to name a few) piping in sharing tunes, guys I consider seasoned vets. These are newbies sharing tunes with another newbie.

What the new folks need to also understand is, it’s one thing in sharing a tune, but another in sharing what’s actually been modified or put into the gun. A lot of that stuff isn’t shared. Trust me on that one. I just took apart a pcp in 22 caliber, shooting the 25.39 monster redesigns at 1085 FPS. The parts I found inside along with the settings blew me away. I could have easily piped in and “shared my tune” without knowing what was in there and 100% guaranteed it couldn’t be copied.

oh, by the way, very very accurate at that speed, ha ha!

I guess one would challenge me and say what’s wrong with that, starting a thread on tune sharing, and the counter reply I’ve seen is, “at least it helps to get close”. Well, maybe I’m blind or I missed them, but I have yet to see a response back from a guy that received a recipe tune and say “ HEY! I’m so thankful! I did exactly as you suggested and my gun is now lights out like yours!!” Nope, never a confirmation reply back on the comparative results.

in my world alone just using pellets I’m discovering wonders and having “Eureka!” moments, made only thru both my efforts and MISTAKES IVE MADE. Key words, hence being capitalized. 


The comment about putting the time in is no joke. No shortcuts, and paying particularly close attention to detail. Taking impeccable notes is also key. I’ve always found the minute I take one shortcut due to a moment of laziness, like not take a certain measurement with my calipers and thinking it’s close enough, has always bitten me in the butt. 


YouTube has its place. I’ve been burned by an airgun review once, and only once. I pay more attention to the seasoned vets on here with actual time tested guns and parts to help me make my decisions anymore.