Paypal quietly added the $2500.00 fine back in its policy - 2 weeks after the backlash

What rule would be violated if you bought an air rifle. The rule I see says "firearms and ammunition." Or are air rifles loosely considered firearms? And pellets ammunition? Or did I miss something in the fine print?
Technically, no violation in a perfect world. Some had issues with airgun and related purchases not covered by Paypal protection. It depends on the interpretation of the Paypal company dude sitting in his mother's basement when he sees the "gun" portion of the airgun purchase. Good luck convincing this 23 year old social justice warrior that an airgun is not a gun., etc...

Similar with Ebay. I am in Northern VA where airgun purchase is legal and I bought on Ebay several airguns before and shipped here But Ebay for some reason about 4 years ago decided to disallow anyone in my area to buy airguns based on some erroneously applied locality rule from another county and they would not budge eversince. I called them, complained on their website's community section (got suspended), but they are playing safe so they don't care if a few thousand people get caught up in some misinterpreted or erroneous decision. Airgun rights are not like gender-fluid binary pronoun rights that are untouchable and you better prepare to go to jail if you deny/mistake them.
 
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I did not take a semester of contract law in a university (only had a provisional US GOV Contracting Officer warrant) but let me answer you anyway to clarify your misunderstanding:

The point I made is not that you as the Buyer can refuse to do business with a company that does not reflect your values...but that those values are not communicated and are not outlined clearly and specifically (unlike in the case of financial fraud). Thus "misinformation" , "intolerance", and other subjective terms can be applied ambiguously by Paypal as the sole arbitrator. So basically, Paypal is the judge, jury, and executioner all in one. This is different from financial fraud where clear case laws, etc exist/existed along with a legal infrastructure for complaints, investigations, trials, and punishment/award of damages.

As far as you other claim that the Buyer initiates a complaint in all cases. That is incorrect, and does not require an entire semester of law to be able to list some examples:

Buyer can donate/pay/contribute to a Seller (individual, organization, business, etc) cash in kind or in the form of purchasing products/services that are deemed offensive by Paypal or by outside third-parties, and Paypal can cancel (and consequently fine the Buyer $2500) without independent arbitration (and in some cases: without established clear standards). I will limit my examples to 5, in progressively less obvious violation of the laws or Paypal's own in-house (vague and purposefully) open-ended policy:

1. payment for child *********** (clear-cut public laws exist)
2. payment for KKK paraphernalia (not illegal to do so by public law, but Paypal may decide it is illegal)
3. payment of a donation/purchasing a product sold by an organization that supports a war on which US sanctions exist for one party but not for the other (example: you can donate to Ukraine-causes but not Russian)
4. payment to the Oath Keepers organization (Jan 6 riots) for legal fees, etc (when the organization has not been designated by the federal government as "terrorist, "extremist", etc but Paypal decides they are undesirable otherwise, but not listing them in the "User Agreement")
5. Fictitious scenario for illustration purposes only: payment for air guns or related products that becomes the central issue of one of the two major US political parties' campaign platform. Their cited reason: airguns can cause bodily harm and additional liabilities can be misused in an "armed insurrection". In this made-up scenario no actual federal laws exist against airguns (yet), but Paypal sides with the political party's campaign and starts leveling $2500 fines for aigun related purchases without actual evidence or past case laws that such danger exists. And does this without arbitration and due-process.
(My last post on this topic., Ill let you all have the last word on my posts)

1 semester? For me, I am not a Lawyer, but I did sleep in a Holiday inn. 😉

I am sure in the semester you were taught that all U.S citizens, individual or corporate can seek redress in U.S courts for equtable relief where as you state "clear case laws, etc exist/existed along with a legal infrastructure for complaints, investigations, trials, and punishment/award of damages." This is the base premise of my argument. Paypal is not the FINAL ARITRATOR, the courts are! I ll address it later in post.

Regarding Scenarios #1-#5. ALL companies/organizations/individuals require prior approval from Paypal in order to send and receive Paypal payments. As a private company, Paypal reserves the right to refuse service from any entity or cancel any entity from using their pay platform for violations of their user agreement or at their sole discretion at any time for that matter. That has always been their right! Your scenarios #1-#4 assume that these organizations would have been given prior approval even if upfront they violate Paypals user agreement, or company values. Highly unlikely scenarios. For sake of discussion, If they were prior approved and later found to be in violation of PayPal user agreements or company values, we can expect them to be expeditiously canceled by Paypal.

Your scenario #5 has merit regarding the fine. As I stated before, what is objectionable is the $2,500 fine only because the user agreement outlining violations is poorly written, can be perceived to be ambiguous, and stretched to be construed to extend beyond the scope of a standard user agreement and violate 1A. However, I am sure you learned in your semester that ambiguous contracts (especially if fine is levied arbitrarily after prior approval and without adequate notice) are voidable, and that contracts that violate state and federal (Constitution) law are unenforceable.

The way I see it, the vast majority of Paypal Users trust and appreciate that Paypal is acting in good faith to rid their platform of undestirable elements that do not adhire to the user agreement or reflect their corporate values. And if by the improbable chance Paypal is trying to abuse their user contract and arbitrarily fine their users, it would not hold up in court and as we know, (as well as Paypal) Paypal would no longer exist as a viable entity.

PROTIP: If your legal argument points of authority example Child *********, KKK, or parties circumventing U.S sanctions, you may want to rethink your legal strategy!😇

Solution: Dont keep any funds in a Paypal account. That is a a bad practice regardless.

Peace.
 
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(My last post on this topic., Ill let you all have the last word on my posts)

1 semester? For me, I am not a Lawyer, but I did sleep in a Holiday inn. 😉

I am sure in the semester you were taught that all U.S citizens, individual or corporate can seek redress in U.S courts for equtable relief where as you state "clear case laws, etc exist/existed along with a legal infrastructure for complaints, investigations, trials, and punishment/award of damages." This is the base premise of my argument. Paypal is not the FINAL ARITRATOR, the courts are! I ll address it later in post.

Regarding Scenarios #1-#5. ALL companies/organizations/individuals require prior approval from Paypal in order to send and receive Paypal payments. As a private company, Paypal reserves the right to refuse service from any entity or cancel any entity from using their pay platform for violations of their user agreement or at their sole discretion at any time for that matter. That has always been their right! Your scenarios #1-#4 assume that these organizations would have been given prior approval even if upfront they violate Paypals user agreement, or company values. Highly unlikely scenarios. For sake of discussion, If they were prior approved and later found to be in violation of PayPal user agreements or company values, we can expect them to be expeditiously canceled by Paypal.

Your scenario #5 has merit regarding the fine. As I stated before, what is objectionable is the $2,500 fine only because the user agreement outlining violations is poorly written, can be perceived to be ambiguous, and stretched to be construed to extend beyond the scope of a standard user agreement and violate 1A. However, I am sure you learned in your semester that ambiguous contracts (especially if fine is levied arbitrarily after prior approval and without adequate notice) are voidable, and that contracts that violate state and federal (Constitution) law are unenforceable.

The way I see it, the vast majority of Paypal Users trust and appreciate that Paypal is acting in good faith to rid their platform of undestirable elements that do not adhire to the user agreement or reflect their corporate values. And if by the improbable chance Paypal is trying to abuse their user contract and arbitrarily fine their users, it would not hold up in court and as we know, (as well as Paypal) Paypal would no longer exist as a viable entity.

PROTIP: If your legal argument points of authority example Child *********, KKK, or parties circumventing U.S sanctions, you may want to rethink your legal strategy!😇

Solution: Dont keep any funds in a Paypal account. That is a a bad practice regardless.

Peace.
The point is, that with the exception of clear-cut financial fraud where industry standards apply, there is not a clear standard outlined in Paypal's policy for their blanket terms of not allowable behavior on race, hate, etc and such these prohibitions are left open for interpretation by Paypal.

Nobody disputes that as a private company Paypal can (within the US Constitution and commerce laws, etc) set their own standards. But because of the ambiguity of these standards many chose not to participate. The uneven or biased application of Paypal standards also opens the company up for litigation regardless how futile that may be now until the Section 230 "protection" is revised or repealed.

Twitter, similarly, has been restricting the reach (shadow-banning) and access of those they disagreed with politically, socially, etc. What's is of concern regardless if legal: should public companies acting in the public space be taking sides in political issues while hiding behind ambiguous terminologies? And apply those "punishments" in an ad-hoc manner (case by case basis without due-process and independent arbitration) in the form of monetary fines?

You again missed my point in the end: I have given you 5 examples to refute your statement that the Buyer has to initiate any complaints. Has nothing to do with a litigation strategy that you snarkily (and erroneously) mentioned. In all five cases, Paypal or any third-party can initiate a complaint that can lead to a fine/punishment. Although as you get from 1-5, the likeliness of that happening is progressively less (as I noted previously). In essence, it's not disputed that Paypal can impose fines based on its own values. What is concerning that Paypal uses its own interpretation of its ambiguously stated terminologies to pick and choose standards after the fact since those terminologies like race, hate, etc are left open for (mis)interpretation by the sellers/buyers.

It is beside the point that Paypal can legally decide what they want prohibited. If they want vanilla ice-cream banned in Paypal transactions and favor strawberry only, they are legally able to do so, but must clearly communicate that in the rules nd apply the fines evenly.

PROTIP: never promise to end your argument without further replies because you may be left out hanging like a clown without the ability to argue your debunked points. And if you come back, you look like a bigger clown.
 
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I'm glad you guys brought up the problems with Paypal. Just tried to log into my account and found it's gone. 🍻🍻🍻🤗🤗 I've not used them in so long that they said bye bye-bye. Never gave them my checking account numbers just my CC and never updated them when they expired.
Couldn't figure out what the heck this was as I didn't even know what the email was saying I purchased. Heck, when I looked what it was my brain couldn't even wrap my head around what was being explained.😱🤣😂🤣

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This is an old thread, but I wanted to add more context to it. If you read PayPal https://www.paypal.com/us/legalhub/acceptableuse-full it explicitly states that only transactions involving "(j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories" are prohibited. I have sold and bought multiple airguns using PayPal for sending and receiving payments and every time I've put a very specific description in the note, which included make and model and type, i.e. "air rifle", "air pistol", etc. Not once in 10 years I had any issues with PayPal questioning these transactions or somehow restricting my account. Nor were any issues on the other side of these transactions. I totally agree that buying and selling firearms and parts for them using PayPal is a big no-no, but people of firearms private forums still use it but explicitly state that they would accept only "anonymous" PayPal payments, i.e. payments that don't include any details about the nature of such transactions. But as I said, PayPal allows selling and buying airguns, just like any other online selling platform - eBay, Amazon, etc. So please don't create additional panic around this.
 
To reinforce this statement, I buy tons of airgun related stuff from eBay for instance. I ALWAYS PAY WITH PAYPAL. Zero issues, 100% in accordance with PayPal policy. Again, as long as you don't buy anything related to FIREARMS you should be totally fine. If anyone can give me an example of someone getting banned for buying an airgun then I'll be happy to change my opinion. Otherwise, I'm 100% fine to pay and receive payment for airguns via PayPal with any sort of notes attaching describing it.
 
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Folks seem to miss the part that the $2,500 penalty is assesed after the the Buyer initiates a claim against the Seller and provides compelling evidence that the Seller engaged in deceitful fraudulent activity. Paypal is only assesing the $2,500 to recoup investigaive costs. Sounds reasonable to me.
That's not protection. That is extortion
 
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What rule would be violated if you bought an air rifle. The rule I see says "firearms and ammunition." Or are air rifles loosely considered firearms? And pellets ammunition? Or did I miss something in the fine print?
You’re using logic. You need to think with a “liberal” mind. Think might be a poor choice of words.
 
I quit PayPal years ago. The problems were numerous and rapidly multiplying. A constant erosion of seller protections, the arbitrary enforcement of vague terms of service with little to no recourse, and the random freezing of funds with no explanation or recourse as well. And customer service went from poor to non-existent.

Not going to tell anyone else what to do, and I do know people who have had no problems with them, but for me, I will never use or otherwise do any business with PayPal again.
 
I don't use PayPal and do not plan to. But for those thinking PayPal is OK for airguns because they are not "firearms" you need to also consider the PayPal agreement's message making everything at their discretion. They could decide tomorrow that they consider airguns to be firearms and you would be in violation. Just not worth the risk to me. Why support any left leaning organization when there are readily available alternatives?
 
In many states, (IL) airguns (over .177) are considered firearms. Best to use discreet Paypal, and leave the Notes field blank. Not sure why some think putting unnecessary info in there gives them "protection". If you don't trust me, don't buy from me, and you will have absolute protection.
Why use a service that clearly does not support your hobby or better yet, your inalienable right!
 
If there are better options than PayPal, I'm all in for it but most people want and ask to pay or receive payment via PayPal. I'm ok with Venmo or Zelle as well, for example. And it seems that Zelle has become the better option these days for transactions like this. The reason why I personally put a note with description of items paid for (yes I write a note that it is for an airgun too) is to keep records for myself and for the other party, so they know what this transaction was about. In a few months when I review my bank (or in this case PayPal) records, I wouldn't know what this is about if I have no such note. It's not about protection or about anything else, it's only for record keeping, that's it. As I said, I never had any issues with PayPal, nor I heard that anyone had such an issue paying for or selling an airgun. If someone wants to have a "discreet" PPFF transaction then please tell it upfront in terms of payment (like people on firearm forums do, yes, they still use PayPal) and I'll be happy to oblige. If in some states specific airguns are considered firearms or prohibited in any other way, then it is illegal to sell it there in the first place and there should be no PP transaction (or any other payment) at all. Otherwise, I don't see why not to use PayPal and not to put clear notes about items paid for in the note as a courtesy for both parties exchanging goods.
 
So yesterday I placed an order for some 34mm scope rings for my Element Titan from Midway USA. When I get to the payment portion of checkout there’s a link to click on regarding PP. I do not use PP. So I click on link out of curiosity.
Choose wisely.

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Midway sells firearms and ammo, that's why they don't use PayPal. And this is what they specifically explain in this message. They can't allow to use PayPal as a method of payment for specific products and don't allow for others. I.e. allow paying for a scope with PayPal but if you try to buy ammo from them then disable this payment method. That's why they don't allow it at all. It has nothing to do with airguns. As I pointed already out, eBay allow sell of airguns and allows you to pay with PayPal no problem.
 
Why use a service that clearly does not support your hobby or better yet, your inalienable right!
People ask to pay or receive payment via PayPal, that's why. I'm happy to use any other service out there, which is not safe or convenient for this sort of transaction. But PayPal is what people want to use 9 out of 10 times, it seems. And I'm totally OK with PP.