Hi folks. I've noticed a disturbing trend in the last few years. A confrontational attitude held by customers towards enterprise. This seems to be present with some customers of airgun companies, manufacturers and retailers. A confrontational attitude is destructive amongst partners. We are partners with the airgun industry whether one likes it or not. Industry cannot survive without customers. It would be difficult to be an air gunner without airguns, et al.
The good folks who manufacture, distribute, retail and service airgun stuff are not out to sabotage thier customers. Sure things go wrong, always have. These folks are our brothers and sisters in this wonderful activity. Mutual respect and appreciation is the way forward my friends. Everyone will benefit. When things need repair, it may be a good time to practice patience.
 
While I agree with most of this, I don’t agree with all. There ARE some out there that think they can overcharge a customer for a product and get away with it by putting their own name on a product. Or those that take other companies ideas and copy it for profit. I won’t name anyone, but it does happen. These people need to be singled out, and called out to the masses in order to keep them in check. If manufacturers did this without being held accountable, this sport, or any sport. Would be even more expensive than it is already.
 
you cant blame the manufactures , they make a cheap copy and we rush to buy it . we even shop around to find the cheapest copy . Then we brag about it
And then we complain that is does not hold together or broke before one tin of pellets and no service .
 
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you cant blame the manufactures , they make a cheap copy and we rush to buy it . we even shop around to find the cheapest copy . Then we brag about it .
Disagree. Copies aren’t always cheaper. They even go as far as buying the product from the same manufacturer, slapping their name on it, and tripling the price!
Consumers the ink they’re buying a higher quality product, when in fact, they’re buying the exact same thing from the exact same supplier.
 
Re labeling has always been around , sometimes less ,sometimes more $$ .
" Let the buyer beware " very old saying .
The ones i hate are the sellers that buy famous name brand but cheapen the parts so you think your getting the name buy it is not the same quality . And the manufactures makes the lesser version for the customer .
 
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One thing that need to be addressed by all is SHIPPING. Very hard to believe they can't sign up for pirateship or some other discount shipping. A $1 oring cost $7 bucks to ship. Give me a break.....
time is money . takes time to send the item down the packaging lane and sort to different carriers /different packaging , even different prices that is way they have a minimum shipping cost .
 
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One thing that need to be addressed by all is SHIPPING. Very hard to believe they can't sign up for pirateship or some other discount shipping. A $1 oring cost $7 bucks to ship. Give me a break.....
How does one address shipping? This hobby is driven by internet sales and those require shipping. As a society we have become addicted to internet shopping and have created in short order a need for shipping assets that did not exist a short few years ago.
So you buy a $1.00 O ring. How much is packaging? $1.00, maybe .50 cents ? How long does it take to package the item and then process it for shipping? Ten minutes? If the person in the shipping dept. is getting paid $15 an hour that 10 minutes is costing their employer $2.50 not taking into account employer contributions to their withholdings or any other benefits the employee may be receiving. We are at a minimum of $3.00 their costs. They have to add some profit to those costs or they don’t stay in business. So we will be tight here and say 15% and now we are at $3.45 their cost and we have not even gotten to what the actual shipping company is going to charge them to transport the package. Then the shipping company has to handle the package at several points along the way, more labor. Then you have fuel costs and equipment costs to account for. Those trucks, computers and sorting systems cost money and need repair and or replacement regularly.
I think $7.00 to ship an O ring is quite reasonable.
 
How does one address shipping? This hobby is driven by internet sales and those require shipping. As a society we have become addicted to internet shopping and have created in short order a need for shipping assets that did not exist a short few years ago.
So you buy a $1.00 O ring. How much is packaging? $1.00, maybe .50 cents ? How long does it take to package the item and then process it for shipping? Ten minutes? If the person in the shipping dept. is getting paid $15 an hour that 10 minutes is costing their employer $2.50 not taking into account employer contributions to their withholdings or any other benefits the employee may be receiving. We are at a minimum of $3.00 their costs. They have to add some profit to those costs or they don’t stay in business. So we will be tight here and say 15% and now we are at $3.45 their cost and we have not even gotten to what the actual shipping company is going to charge them to transport the package. Then the shipping company has to handle the package at several points along the way, more labor. Then you have fuel costs and equipment costs to account for. Those trucks, computers and sorting systems cost money and need repair and or replacement regularly.
I think $7.00 to ship an O ring is quite reasonable.
If you think $7 bucks is reasonable to ship an oring, you need to ditch the decaf and go back to the strong stuff.
 
One thing that need to be addressed by all is SHIPPING. Very hard to believe they can't sign up for pirateship or some other discount shipping. A $1 oring cost $7 bucks to ship. Give me a break.....
Shipping is going up in price just like everything else - sometimes it does cost more to ship than the product costs - so, don't order 1 o-ring, order at least 20, then the shipping will probably be the same.
 
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Shipping is going up in price just like everything else - sometimes it does cost more to ship than the product costs - so, don't order 1 o-ring, order at least 20, then the shipping will probably be the same

One thing that need to be addressed by all is SHIPPING. Very hard to believe they can't sign up for pirateship or some other discount shipping. A $1 oring cost $7 bucks to ship. Give me a break.....
does pirateship have insurance ? guaranteed delivery , signature required ? just asking
 
Partners? No, I disagree with that.

The people I hunt with are my partners. The people that I receive and share knowledge with here and else where are partners.

The businesses that I buy from and that generate profit from sales to me are not my partners. They are product and service providers and I am their customer. It is a transactional relationship for me just like with any other business that I deal with. Now if these were not-for-profit businesses that would be a different story. But far as I know, all of the air gun manufacturers are for-profit enterprises. And as such they will either earn my money to add to their profit or they will not.

You’ve taken a philosophical and transformational approach to the relationship that a customer has with a business. I see it as transactional only. Neither one of us is right or wrong in how we see the relationship. Just sharing my view point.
 
People now think that shipping cost are basically free because they can order a one dollar item from China and get it shipped for free. What they don't know is that a certain President that made China a Most Favored Nation set it up so that the US tax payers actually pay for all e-packages that come from China. Generally they are suppose to be very light weight items but companies use loop holes to send heavey items as a e-package.
 
This topic got my brain neurons firing and I remembered a old documentary that I watched where a CEO of some mineral company gave a speech that wasn't suppose to be recorded. He stated that their customers were their enemy because they always looked for a lower price. He got the industry to adjust their prices so that they were pretty much all in line with each other. IDK, I just think it's pretty silly to think that a company always has their customers best interest at heart and we are in partnership with them.
 
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All I have to bring to this conversation is a perspective from a poor person. I'm a sick pensioner and get roughly €/$800 per month in disability to live on. I live in Finland which is very expensive and on an island so everything is about 20% more expensive than mainland Finland.
Despite this I can save around €50-200 a month for my hobbies (don't drink, smoke, party or anything that costs a lot of money).
When I buy something I have to really think about it, I have to carefully plan my purchase, decide on how much I can cut down on food to save extra money as that's the only expense I can cut back on. I have become VERY proficient at finding cheaper options and the way marketing works makes me even more inclined to search for alternatives, especially if the thing is originally manufactured in china.

Look at Apple, why are they popular? Overhyped and really smart marketing targeting kids/teens causes a very destructive behaviour in "if you don't have it you can't be part of the cool club". I know a lot about marketing, manufacturing costs and msrp. I'm sure most of you would be shocked if you knew what some of the airguns cost to manufacture compared to the cost of buying them from a store.

Now what does this have to do with the discussion? It comes down to this: I can buy a product locally or I can order the exact same product from the exact same manufacturer or someone with a connection to the manufacturer from china for up to 90% cheaper with free shipping but I have to wait 1-2 months for the product to arrive. China does not care at all about copyright, you can find copies/offbrand versions of almost anything made in China, often made with the exact same parts and often put together by people who work in the factory where the original is made.

So an airgun might cost $200-500 to manufacture in china and the product is sold for $1500 in the US/EU or you can buy the china version for $300-600. You will not have any warranty regardless of what they might claim but the crackdown on scammers is really good so you will almost always receive a product or your money back if you buy from sites with good customer protection.

The TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) destroyed manufacturing in the US and similarly in the EU for cheap products made in China.
This allows brands to have products made really cheaply and then sold high very high profits in the US/EU and all it cost them are all their technologies being stolen by China. Anyone remember when all phone support was moved to India? Sure it was cheap but all it cost them were all their users data being stolen because of lax rules in India... backlash caused many to abandon call centers in India afaik.

Brand loyalty and buying locally only goes so far when you are poor. If I want as much bang for my buck as possible I'm forced to look for alternatives and currently 90% of accessories can be had for 10% of the price from China. If it's manufactured in china there will be someone somewhere selling the same product or an identical/copy of it for 10-25% of the price, often with free shipping which is extremely important for me as I live on a so called "remote location".

I want to support manufacturers but my economic situation does not allow for it and as I have information on how much it actually costs to manufacture something in China it just leaves a bad taste to buy it locally or from within the EU/US. I the product is manufactured outside of China then there is usually no other option but it's also more expensive. There are many places you can have custom stuff made as well, even one off products. Quality has been extremely good for a fraction of the cost compared to locally, only difference is long shipping times if you go with the cheapest option.

Here is how I look at (though my view is from someone who's poor as I live on around $10 000 per year):
1. Would a manufacturer care if they lost my business?
2. Would a large retailer care if they lost my business?
3. Would a local store care if they lost my business?

You can ask this question of anyone who has a product to offer, some will be yes, others will be no. The ones who really care will try to fix a problem and you should support them, just a positive review goes a long way. The ones that don't care if they lose you should be avoided and a negative review is needed.
Thanks to reviews businesses have to care more about customer support now than they ever did in the past.
You do need to realize you are nothing more than number to most businesses but it is you who has the choice of whom to support or not. Problems start when monopolies emerge and I'm sure most people have a horror story with a business with a monopoly in some field.

TLDR: Support those who appreciate your business as much as possible.
 
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All I have to bring to this conversation is a perspective from a poor person. I'm a sick pensioner and get roughly €/$800 per month in disability to live on. I live in Finland which is very expensive and on an island so everything is about 20% more expensive than mainland Finland.
Despite this I can save around €50-200 a month for my hobbies (don't drink, smoke, party or anything that costs a lot of money).
When I buy something I have to really think about it, I have to carefully plan my purchase, decide on how much I can cut down on food to save extra money as that's the only expense I can cut back on. I have become VERY proficient at finding cheaper options and the way marketing works makes me even more inclined to search for alternatives, especially if the thing is originally manufactured in china.

Look at Apple, why are they popular? Overhyped and really smart marketing targeting kids/teens causes a very destructive behaviour in "if you don't have it you can't be part of the cool club". I know a lot about marketing, manufacturing costs and msrp. I'm sure most of you would be shocked if you knew what some of the airguns cost to manufacture compared to the cost of buying them from a store.

Now what does this have to do with the discussion? It comes down to this: I can buy a product locally or I can order the exact same product from the exact same manufacturer or someone with a connection to the manufacturer from china for up to 90% cheaper with free shipping but I have to wait 1-2 months for the product to arrive. China does not care at all about copyright, you can find copies/offbrand versions of almost anything made in China, often made with the exact same parts and often put together by people who work in the factory where the original is made.

So an airgun might cost $200-500 to manufacture in china and the product is sold for $1500 in the US/EU or you can buy the china version for $300-600. You will not have any warranty regardless of what they might claim but the crackdown on scammers is really good so you will almost always receive a product or your money back if you buy from sites with good customer protection.

The TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) destroyed manufacturing in the US and similarly in the EU for cheap products made in China.
This allows brands to have products made really cheaply and then sold high very high profits in the US/EU and all it cost them are all their technologies being stolen by China. Anyone remember when all phone support was moved to India? Sure it was cheap but all it cost them were all their users data being stolen because of lax rules in India... backlash caused many to abandon call centers in India afaik.

Brand loyalty and buying locally only goes so far when you are poor. If I want as much bang for my buck as possible I'm forced to look for alternatives and currently 90% of accessories can be had for 10% of the price from China. If it's manufactured in china there will be someone somewhere selling the same product or an identical/copy of it for 10-25% of the price, often with free shipping which is extremely important for me as I live on a so called "remote location".

I want to support manufacturers but my economic situation does not allow for it and as I have information on how much it actually costs to manufacture something in China it just leaves a bad taste to buy it locally or from within the EU/US. I the product is manufactured outside of China then there is usually no other option but it's also more expensive. There are many places you can have custom stuff made as well, even one off products. Quality has been extremely good for a fraction of the cost compared to locally, only difference is long shipping times if you go with the cheapest option.

Here is how I look at (though my view is from someone who's poor as I live on around $10 000 per year):
1. Would a manufacturer care if they lost my business?
2. Would a large retailer care if they lost my business?
3. Would a local store care if they lost my business?

You can ask this question of anyone who has a product to offer, some will be yes, others will be no. The ones who really care will try to fix a problem and you should support them, just a positive review goes a long way. The ones that don't care if they lose you should be avoided and a negative review is needed.
Thanks to reviews businesses have to care more about customer support now than they ever did in the past.
You do need to realize you are nothing more than number to most businesses but it is you who has the choice of whom to support or not. Problems start when monopolies emerge and I'm sure most people have a horror story with a business with a monopoly in some field.

TLDR: Support those who appreciate your business as much as possible.
The TPP wasn't enacted in the US. MFN status from China hurt US manufacturing. Some manufacturers are returning production to the US due to cheaper energy and labor costs relative to other countries, and higher shipping costs.