Can't agree more with this statement! Just like in real estate, location, location, location! (chuckle)
Also, all I shoot are domed pellets for the same reason.
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PART II...Is a .30 caliber airgun REALLY deadlier than a .25?
- Thread starter Baker Airguns
- Start date
Can't agree more with this statement! Just like in real estate, location, location, location! (chuckle)
Also, all I shoot are domed pellets for the same reason.
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I have the results of my proposed comparison of the two. I did that month ago.
This example is only comparing a sniper's 308 to a varmint hunter 25-06. We have no doubt who the winner is.
This example is only comparing a sniper's 308 to a varmint hunter 25-06. We have no doubt who the winner is.
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"One of the rifles has a short barrel, one of the rifles has a long barrel. They both produce the same amount of energy"
The target doesn't know how long the barrel is. "They both produce the same amount of energy"-seems to sort of be the point.
The target doesn't know how long the barrel is. "They both produce the same amount of energy"-seems to sort of be the point.
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My point is, I could write the same case for a .177 being deadlier than a .22 by applying the same formula: heavyweight pellet, high-power vs. target .22.
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Perhaps you could write the same case, but until you test it....you'll never really know.
Thinking about something, speculating about something....these will not reveal reality to you.
It must be tested.
-Donnie
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It is a good try.
But for medium size animals I will keep using my .30 Cal rifles.
I would like to be able to upload here my videos that show how, with a proper shot placement, javalinas, coyotes and wild turkey fall dead immediately with the .30 Cal.
I am certain that my Daystate Renegade HP .30 with 50.1 grain could also take a white tailed deer. But having proved the results of the .357 there's no need to get the risk.
I would not shot a white tailed deer with my Wolverine HP HR .25 Cal, not even after having watch the videos of this thread.
But for medium size animals I will keep using my .30 Cal rifles.
I would like to be able to upload here my videos that show how, with a proper shot placement, javalinas, coyotes and wild turkey fall dead immediately with the .30 Cal.
I am certain that my Daystate Renegade HP .30 with 50.1 grain could also take a white tailed deer. But having proved the results of the .357 there's no need to get the risk.
I would not shot a white tailed deer with my Wolverine HP HR .25 Cal, not even after having watch the videos of this thread.
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It seems we may be in the minority with our ammunition choices...but that doesn't mean we're wrong.
-Donnie
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As I said before, I've made my comparison, and I know the numbers. I've been testing bullets for the past 30 years.
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Still, I must say to those telling me that a 44.75gr pellet going 843fps is "anemic" or "underpowered"….Ted Bier won some 100yd benchrest competitions using a .30 cal shooting the JSB 44.75gr pellets at 820fps average.
It's highly likely that someone who REALLY tests and tunes their gun for accuracy could be shooting a .30 at 843fps.
This is also the reason that the .25 was shooting at 965fps.
Benchrest rifles are designed to shoot accurately at a pre-determined distance. they are designed to put the pellets all in one circle, Or as close to it as possible. I believe Ted was shooting it at that speed, out of that rifle, because it shot small groups in most conditions. I don’t want to speak for him, but I did read his review.
Usually, the best projectile for Benchrest shooting, is not the best projectile for hunting. Look at 22 rimfire’s. Look at standard 100 and 200 hundred yard PB Benchrest Rifle’s. Neither bullet is designed for hunting. Although most centerfire Benchrest cartridge bullets, do make great varmint rifle’s when you’re shooting from a bench out in the field.
The only choice Ted had when he won EBR, Was whether to shoot 30 caliber, 25 caliber or 22 caliber. He chose the most accurate Long Range caliber first, and he really didn’t have much of a choice in projectile. Once he chose the 30. He had to shoot pellets. Odds are they are going to be JSB’s. Then he tuned them for maximum accuracy at 100 yards. It is absolutely silly to say that he tuned them for hunting. They are two totally different things.
When you’re choosing a hunting set up. Whether it shoots a half inch at 100 yards, or an inch doesn’t matter. Foot-pounds matters, penetration matters, as does accuracy. But not nearly to the same degree, unless you’re hunting something like mule deer at long range, which I have done. I spent a significant amount of time setting my PB rifle up to shoot 1/2 MOA groups consistently. In most cases an MOA deer rifle is fantastic. At 600 yards, the Group size difference in perfect conditions is significant. You could make the argument that 6 inches is plenty good at 600 yards. We rarely shoot in perfect conditions, so when you take into account the heartbeat of the hunter, the conditions, the wind, etc. let’s say the hunter pulls his shot by 4 inches at 600 yards. And his rifle has 6 inch accuracy, And he missed-judged the wind by 2 mph. he’s now quite possibly outside the Killzone (unless he gets lucky). And since The wind moved his bullet horizontally, he may well find himself right in the deers guts, Or miss him all together, which would be better.
In a hunting rifle-projectile combination. You have to choose your set up for a distance that’s going to be an unknown variable. So quite probably for a pellet gun shooting a wild pig, with a headshot, I would probably limit myself to 50 to 75 yards. I would only shoot out past 50 if conditions were perfect, the animal was dead still and I felt good about the shot. I want the most power I can get at that range with a pellet that I can deliver accurately, not Benchrest accuracy, hunting accuracy. When hunting at 25-75 yards, MOA is more than accurate enough. In fact I would probably accept more power and a little bit less accuracy.
In your clients scenario, where he was shooting at point-blank range, accuracy would be my last concern. I would want the biggest baddest fastest pellet I could shoot.
Frankly, the guy should’ve been shooting a 35 like the other guy mentioned early in the post that annoyed you. The Winchester model 70, in 35 would’ve been a great choice. Plus they’re fairly inexpensive and inexpensive on the used market.
When I first received my wolverine many years ago, I was much more concerned with accuracy than power. I shot it at 100 yards then 150 then 200. I was not satisfied with the accuracy. I trimmed the spring just a bit. Changing the foot per second from about 960 down to about 930. The accuracy became phenomenal. It was a much better long range hunting rifle at the slightly lower power. But it’s still a hammer. I have shot one coyote, quite a few raccoons, quite a few skunks, quite a few squirrels, A couple turkeys, they all died like they were hit by a lightning bolt. A high-powered 30 is an absolute hammer and the 25 doesn’t compare. Now I’m going to contradict myself. The 25 might be better, shooting slugs, heavy ones, pointed ones, extremely high velocity. Thousand feet per second or more.
I was personally hoping you were going to do a version three. Instead you just defended your stance.
Your client chose the wrong rifle. Or it was just not tuned correctly. He also chose the wrong projectile. I believe the impact has good slug barrels. A slug would be a much better projectile.
You sound like a great guy, I think your company is very good, I just found your response anemic and disappointing, I’m a fairly candid guy.
mike
It's highly likely that someone who REALLY tests and tunes their gun for accuracy could be shooting a .30 at 843fps.
This is also the reason that the .25 was shooting at 965fps.
Benchrest rifles are designed to shoot accurately at a pre-determined distance. they are designed to put the pellets all in one circle, Or as close to it as possible. I believe Ted was shooting it at that speed, out of that rifle, because it shot small groups in most conditions. I don’t want to speak for him, but I did read his review.
Usually, the best projectile for Benchrest shooting, is not the best projectile for hunting. Look at 22 rimfire’s. Look at standard 100 and 200 hundred yard PB Benchrest Rifle’s. Neither bullet is designed for hunting. Although most centerfire Benchrest cartridge bullets, do make great varmint rifle’s when you’re shooting from a bench out in the field.
The only choice Ted had when he won EBR, Was whether to shoot 30 caliber, 25 caliber or 22 caliber. He chose the most accurate Long Range caliber first, and he really didn’t have much of a choice in projectile. Once he chose the 30. He had to shoot pellets. Odds are they are going to be JSB’s. Then he tuned them for maximum accuracy at 100 yards. It is absolutely silly to say that he tuned them for hunting. They are two totally different things.
When you’re choosing a hunting set up. Whether it shoots a half inch at 100 yards, or an inch doesn’t matter. Foot-pounds matters, penetration matters, as does accuracy. But not nearly to the same degree, unless you’re hunting something like mule deer at long range, which I have done. I spent a significant amount of time setting my PB rifle up to shoot 1/2 MOA groups consistently. In most cases an MOA deer rifle is fantastic. At 600 yards, the Group size difference in perfect conditions is significant. You could make the argument that 6 inches is plenty good at 600 yards. We rarely shoot in perfect conditions, so when you take into account the heartbeat of the hunter, the conditions, the wind, etc. let’s say the hunter pulls his shot by 4 inches at 600 yards. And his rifle has 6 inch accuracy, And he missed-judged the wind by 2 mph. he’s now quite possibly outside the Killzone (unless he gets lucky). And since The wind moved his bullet horizontally, he may well find himself right in the deers guts, Or miss him all together, which would be better.
In a hunting rifle-projectile combination. You have to choose your set up for a distance that’s going to be an unknown variable. So quite probably for a pellet gun shooting a wild pig, with a headshot, I would probably limit myself to 50 to 75 yards. I would only shoot out past 50 if conditions were perfect, the animal was dead still and I felt good about the shot. I want the most power I can get at that range with a pellet that I can deliver accurately, not Benchrest accuracy, hunting accuracy. When hunting at 25-75 yards, MOA is more than accurate enough. In fact I would probably accept more power and a little bit less accuracy.
In your clients scenario, where he was shooting at point-blank range, accuracy would be my last concern. I would want the biggest baddest fastest pellet I could shoot.
Frankly, the guy should’ve been shooting a 35 like the other guy mentioned early in the post that annoyed you. The Winchester model 70, in 35 would’ve been a great choice. Plus they’re fairly inexpensive and inexpensive on the used market.
When I first received my wolverine many years ago, I was much more concerned with accuracy than power. I shot it at 100 yards then 150 then 200. I was not satisfied with the accuracy. I trimmed the spring just a bit. Changing the foot per second from about 960 down to about 930. The accuracy became phenomenal. It was a much better long range hunting rifle at the slightly lower power. But it’s still a hammer. I have shot one coyote, quite a few raccoons, quite a few skunks, quite a few squirrels, A couple turkeys, they all died like they were hit by a lightning bolt. A high-powered 30 is an absolute hammer and the 25 doesn’t compare. Now I’m going to contradict myself. The 25 might be better, shooting slugs, heavy ones, pointed ones, extremely high velocity. Thousand feet per second or more.
I was personally hoping you were going to do a version three. Instead you just defended your stance.
Your client chose the wrong rifle. Or it was just not tuned correctly. He also chose the wrong projectile. I believe the impact has good slug barrels. A slug would be a much better projectile.
You sound like a great guy, I think your company is very good, I just found your response anemic and disappointing, I’m a fairly candid guy.
mike
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Hang tight. I think you had a really good idea here. But I also think that you chose the experiment to support what you had already decided before hand. And I don’t think you did this on purpose.
it’ll just take me a little bit. I’m not a videographer.
Let’s have a little bit of fun…stay tuned.
mike
it’ll just take me a little bit. I’m not a videographer.
Let’s have a little bit of fun…stay tuned.
mike
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This is a video of a 30 caliber air rifle, Shooting JSB pellet, Approximately 6 feet from the boards. I did this twice. I was wondering if the first board was interfering with the second board. So I moved them apart about 8 inches. When they were close together, I believe the board hit the other board before the pellet even contacted it. Plus I didn’t realize I had super slow Mo, which is the second take.
Look at the shape of the pellet and the indentation in the second board. I think if my hand would’ve been back there…well, I think dead squirrel.
You can slowly scroll through the video, and actually see the pellet exit the first board and fly into the second board.
https://vimeo.com/626896758
The boards are half inch oak.
This is fun. Good post.
enjoy!
mike
Look at the shape of the pellet and the indentation in the second board. I think if my hand would’ve been back there…well, I think dead squirrel.
You can slowly scroll through the video, and actually see the pellet exit the first board and fly into the second board.
https://vimeo.com/626896758
The boards are half inch oak.
This is fun. Good post.
enjoy!
mike
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"I’m a fairly candid guy." Nothing wrong with that. Your opinion is just as (and no more) valid than any elses.
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LMAO, the new google rookies get schooled again.
We figured this out shortly after .25 hit the AG ranks.
Even break barrels slung'em with more damage.
Good Job Donny, you spanked plenty from the google crew.
Like the hyenas they are…….
This thread will end up locked or 54 pages deep,women cant shut up…….
The 30 was invented gosh I’m guessing 20 years after the 25…maybe even 30 years. Yet you claim you knew it was better…I guess even before the 30 caliber ever hit the scene?
I bought the very first 30 caliber PCP available on the planet. I received one of the very first ones, that was hand tested for me per Robert at airguns of Arizona. At least that was the story. I did extensive testing and tuning and shooting out to 200 yds, and published it on the yellow forum.
Then FX came out with their version of the 30 caliber and I believe it was Frederick who came across the pond and killed everyone at one of the very first extreme Benchrest matches. I ended up buying the exact rifle that he used to shoot that match, that was designed and put together specifically for him, and owning it for a few years. It was wonderfully accurate.
The gentleman who designed the 34 grain 25 caliber pellet for JSB, he’s a good friend of mine. He lives in OZ, and he is a Wizard. I shipped him a big BSA 10- 50 scope and loaned it to him for a half a dozen years. I did it because he truly believed that you didn’t need high magnification shoot small groups, which is true…But 50 X is a lot of fun. He doesn’t like coming out and posting anymore because of stuff that gets said, what kind of stuff I wonder?
didn’t Ted win EBR With a D tuned rifle, shooting the 34 grain 25 caliber slower than anyone else? I thought he bought a big batch of really special pellets that shot well through his rifle.
I actually like the post. I enjoy the debate. I happen to think the 30 caliber in general, in the proper Rifle, is way more effective at killing things than the 25.
Yet I also think the 25 is wonderful, especially with Harry’s 34 g high BC monster. I shot some MOA groups with it at 235 yards this summer, and did a post on it. Absolutely fantastic long range target and hunting pellet.
Do you not like women? Or are you just trying to get the post frozen?
My sincerest apologies if I offended you in someway by offering a difference of opinion.
I Can’t even remember which was my first 25, I think a Theoben crow magnum.
I think the first time I bought something from Baker airguns was probably close to 15 years ago if I remember correctly. They were good guys then, and they’re good guys now.
As Louis l’Amour liked to say, “you better check your hole card before you draw”, and he wasn’t talking about poker.
who are the google rookies?
mike
We figured this out shortly after .25 hit the AG ranks.
Even break barrels slung'em with more damage.
Good Job Donny, you spanked plenty from the google crew.
Like the hyenas they are…….
This thread will end up locked or 54 pages deep,women cant shut up…….
The 30 was invented gosh I’m guessing 20 years after the 25…maybe even 30 years. Yet you claim you knew it was better…I guess even before the 30 caliber ever hit the scene?
I bought the very first 30 caliber PCP available on the planet. I received one of the very first ones, that was hand tested for me per Robert at airguns of Arizona. At least that was the story. I did extensive testing and tuning and shooting out to 200 yds, and published it on the yellow forum.
Then FX came out with their version of the 30 caliber and I believe it was Frederick who came across the pond and killed everyone at one of the very first extreme Benchrest matches. I ended up buying the exact rifle that he used to shoot that match, that was designed and put together specifically for him, and owning it for a few years. It was wonderfully accurate.
The gentleman who designed the 34 grain 25 caliber pellet for JSB, he’s a good friend of mine. He lives in OZ, and he is a Wizard. I shipped him a big BSA 10- 50 scope and loaned it to him for a half a dozen years. I did it because he truly believed that you didn’t need high magnification shoot small groups, which is true…But 50 X is a lot of fun. He doesn’t like coming out and posting anymore because of stuff that gets said, what kind of stuff I wonder?
didn’t Ted win EBR With a D tuned rifle, shooting the 34 grain 25 caliber slower than anyone else? I thought he bought a big batch of really special pellets that shot well through his rifle.
I actually like the post. I enjoy the debate. I happen to think the 30 caliber in general, in the proper Rifle, is way more effective at killing things than the 25.
Yet I also think the 25 is wonderful, especially with Harry’s 34 g high BC monster. I shot some MOA groups with it at 235 yards this summer, and did a post on it. Absolutely fantastic long range target and hunting pellet.
Do you not like women? Or are you just trying to get the post frozen?
My sincerest apologies if I offended you in someway by offering a difference of opinion.
I Can’t even remember which was my first 25, I think a Theoben crow magnum.
I think the first time I bought something from Baker airguns was probably close to 15 years ago if I remember correctly. They were good guys then, and they’re good guys now.
As Louis l’Amour liked to say, “you better check your hole card before you draw”, and he wasn’t talking about poker.
who are the google rookies?
mike
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I tested the .177 against the .22 a while back. The guns were a Wolverine R HP .177 shooting JSB 16.2's at 915 F.P.S. and a BSA Goldstar shooting JSB 15 9's at 915 F.P.S. Both putting out 30 F.P.E. In Donny's case the guns were not shooting at the same velocity. The .177 penetrated more than the .22 and also shot flatter. Less surface area means less friction
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alias,
Could you get to the conclusión that as at the same fps ,.177 penetrates more than a.22, and therefore at same fps .22 penetrates more than a .25 and therefore, that same fps .25 penetrates more tan a .30..... So .177 is more lethal than .30 ????
That statement do not pass the probe of the laughing !!!!
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Insufficient penetration is almost never a problem in practice. For some big game, sure, but overpenetration and passthroughs are the general case for the vast majority of airgun hunting and pest control.
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Penetration does not always mean more leathality. If the .177 and the .22 both passed through a rabbit's chest , but missed the heart, the .22 would leave a wound channel 22.5 percent larger. That would mean 22.5 percent more blood loss.
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For what it's worth, a .22 pellet actually has 50% more frontal area than a .177. The elasticity of flesh and other factors being variables, it may not necessarily translate into a 50% larger wound channel...but yes the difference is substantial.
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I agree 100% with your findings. A lot of ballistic data in the firearms world that would back up similar results.
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The frontal area would not make a larger wound channel unless it created more expansion. We can't figure expansion without retrieving the pellets after shooting them into some type of medium. I would think the pellet with the more frontal area would expand more because of more resistance. This resistance is why the smaller diameter should penetrate more. When I tested the .177 and .22 the difference was not that much. I used sculpting clay for the medium. I might test them again tomorrow and measure the heads for expansion. The bottom line for me is .177 or .22 at 20 to 30 F.P.E. for squirrels and birds, .22 and .25 at 50 to 65 F/P.E. for rabbits and skunks and .30 at 90 F.P.E. for larger varmints.
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