Original Smooth Twist Barrel (and it's not from FX)

The original discussion was not about how the rifling was created (pressed from outside vs more traditional rifling techniques), but about the similarities of the Whitworth rifling and accuracy of the gun with the FX rifling and accuracy of the gun, nothing more.

Look at the title of the thread and this

"I guess this means what's old is new again.

and, I'm not sure if this is the original smooth twist, but it's sure close."

Now you're saying it was only meant as a comparison of accuracy?

You're comparing square cut machined internal rifling for the entire length of the barrel to pressed from the outside of the barrel for 7% of barrel length.

And for the record my original reply was to the Elbowgrease, I saw later on that you weren't too serious about the comparison but seems you kind of are.

The term Smooth Twist X is also a bit of a misnomer. The original marketing was that the barrel was a smooth bore until the pellet hit the last few inches that contained the "Twist". Now, the Smooth Twist doesn't really have any smooth bore, but is not rifled end to end. The newer STX barrels do resemble the full length rifling of the Whitworth, and while pellets start round, they end up with the 5 flats you referred to, much like the Whitworth bullet or canon shells with 6 flats.

Sure, it does shape a skirt like that. Do you end up with a pellet head doing the same thing? Do pellets go in with square angles like the Whitworth? Other than tiny flats that look like polygon rifling you get from ST as well. Again what FX did that no one to my knowledge that no one else did before what do it externally and only at the end.

The "Smooth" part could also be talking about how the internal rifling ends up with smooth lands and grooves.

While we may disagree on the nuances of the barrels, the point is that the rifling FX uses was really invented long ago. This takes nothing away from FX as designing the machining to create the original Smooth Twist barrels, and proving the incredible accuracy was an incredible undertaking, and did show the Airgun world that there's more to rifling than the traditional styles we are used to. 

You call it a nuance I call it a fundamental difference, the point you claim hasn't been made yet. Show me a barrel from long ago that is pressed from the outside and only at the end. Then you can say it was invented long ago, the ST is NOT SIMPLY A POLYGON BARREL.


 
Agan, if I remember correctly, the FX Smooth Twist is a "Pentagram" shape, no grooves, just a twisted 5 sided barrel hammer forged over a mandrel. When the round pellet enters the barrel, the pellet reshapes into a pentagram to fit the barrel because it's soft lead. It seems to be a very similar principle between the two, FX Smooth Twist and the Whitworth, except the Whitworth ammunition is manufactured to match the barrel dimensions.


No Saltlake58 - the FX Smooth Twist rifling is not a "Pentagram" but is 5 slim lands with grooves between. It has no similarity to whitworth "rifling" whatsoever.

Neither is it "hammer forged over a mandrel" as you write above.

The original discussion was not about how the rifling was created (pressed from outside vs more traditional rifling techniques), but about the similarities of the Whitworth rifling ................

................. Now, the Smooth Twist doesn't really have any smooth bore, but is not rifled end to end. The newer STX barrels do resemble the full length rifling of the Whitworth, and while pellets start round, they end up with the 5 flats you referred to, much like the Whitworth bullet or canon shells with 6 flats.

Again, sorry but the the Smooth Twist DOES have mostly smooth bore excepting for that last couple of inches at the muzzle .

Sorry again - but labouring the point - the STX barrels in no way "resemble the full length rifling of the Whitworth .... " ; and furthermore the pellets from the STX barrels do not "end up with 5 flats". They look just like conventionally fired pellets with normal grooves and lands. This is because after starting into the rifling immediately, as normal, there is no stripping as there is with the original ST barrels.

The only historical similarity that I can suggest has nothing to do with Whitworth but with that of the old "Paradox" rifling which also was a smooth bore up to some 6 inches or so before the muzzle. I have inferred it to be a compromise for shooting either shot or ball. I might surmise that the balls also stripped into a profile with "flats" according to the number of rifling lands and that they too would not have matched their spin rate to that of the barrel's rifling unless it was very slow as in perhaps 1:70" a rate not uncommon in old rifles made to shoot balls with just enough spin to assist stability in balls that may have been slightly out of round, dented, or otherwise mass unbalanced. Conjecture..

Kind regards, Harry.
 
All very interesting. Another interesting point is the original smooth twist was invented by Ben Taylor. FX bought the rights from him. I think it’s development was in its infancy at that stage and has come a long way since then.


Thanks so much for posting that AirSupply, I had to Google Ben Taylor and smooth twist after reading your comment.

A real treasure trove from 2010 here.

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?492415-Review-Smooth-Twist-barrel-by-Ben-Taylor

I really enjoy reading and studying this type of modern airgun history!

Thanks, Fuss

PS....had to edit in another good article https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3wom9bagI4DRGRBOEZVWHdEaW8/view


 
I actually knew that the smooth twist barrel has been around for a very long time and that it was nothing new when FX started using it.

Except that the rifling is pressed on from the outside, who else was doing that? You must have a source as you knew it wasn't FX.

Original smooth twist is

Smooth bore till the last 2 inches or so with yes polygon rifling thats pressed on from the outside causing a choked barrel. If anyone has a source of Fredrik borrowing this idea from anyone please cite it. If you don't know what you're talking about maybe you should not try to imply that this idea is stolen.

Im in no way saying that its a stolen idea and Im not about to start digging around to find where the whole idea came from originally. Dont care care that much. Just saying that I knew that the whole smooth twist thing was nothing new when FX started using it. If anything I would be more interested as to why other air gun makers did not implement the concept in some form or another. Also curious... but just in a small way... as to why FX stopped using it if it worked so well. Always something better sooner or later I guess.
 
I actually knew that the smooth twist barrel has been around for a very long time and that it was nothing new when FX started using it.

Except that the rifling is pressed on from the outside, who else was doing that? You must have a source as you knew it wasn't FX.

Original smooth twist is

Smooth bore till the last 2 inches or so with yes polygon rifling thats pressed on from the outside causing a choked barrel. If anyone has a source of Fredrik borrowing this idea from anyone please cite it. If you don't know what you're talking about maybe you should not try to imply that this idea is stolen.

Im in no way saying that its a stolen idea and Im not about to start digging around to find where the whole idea came from originally. Dont care care that much. Just saying that I knew that the whole smooth twist thing was nothing new when FX started using it. If anything I would be more interested as to why other air gun makers did not implement the concept in some form or another. Also curious... but just in a small way... as to why FX stopped using it if it worked so well. Always something better sooner or later I guess.

Of course it was something new, prove me wrong. The onus is on you.

If you dont care enough to back up your claims dont make them.
 
Why has this thread deteriorated into arguments over such nuances, details, and things that cannot be proven by anyone on this thread? My goal was to show similarities to technology that stretched back over 100 years. If you cannot be civil, please leave the discussion.


I was sadly noticing the same thing Saltlake. Thanks for stepping up to the plate and calling it out. I've enjoyed this thread so much for it's historic and educational value alone.

Chill out guys. It's not a battle of wits?

Fuss
 
I actually knew that the smooth twist barrel has been around for a very long time and that it was nothing new when FX started using it.

Except that the rifling is pressed on from the outside, who else was doing that? You must have a source as you knew it wasn't FX.

Original smooth twist is

Smooth bore till the last 2 inches or so with yes polygon rifling thats pressed on from the outside causing a choked barrel. If anyone has a source of Fredrik borrowing this idea from anyone please cite it. If you don't know what you're talking about maybe you should not try to imply that this idea is stolen.

Im in no way saying that its a stolen idea and Im not about to start digging around to find where the whole idea came from originally. Dont care care that much. Just saying that I knew that the whole smooth twist thing was nothing new when FX started using it. If anything I would be more interested as to why other air gun makers did not implement the concept in some form or another. Also curious... but just in a small way... as to why FX stopped using it if it worked so well. Always something better sooner or later I guess.

Of course it was something new, prove me wrong. The onus is on you.

If you dont care enough to back up your claims dont make them.

Just wow dude. Im done with this.