New Scope or Not (Hawke vs Athlon)

[TomJ]

I’m relatively new to HFT and would appreciate help/suggestions purchasing a new scope. I currently have a .177 Daystate Revere with a Hawke Airmax 30 WA SF 6-24x50 Mrad. The rifle is great and I’m satisfied with the scope. HOWEVER, based on what I’ve read on this and other forums, I’m wondering if an Athlon Heras SFP 6-24x50 1/10 Mrad with the APRS7 reticle would be an improvement over the Hawke from a quality of optics standpoint? Or would I be just as well off or maybe better off, working on technique?
Another question. With the exception of the Hawke all the other scopes I own are MOA. I don’t currently shoot or plan to shoot NRL or other long range games. Since HFT limits a scope to 16x and does not allow clicking to adjust for range, doesn’t the difference between MOA and Mrad become a moot point? I’d appreciate your comments. Thanks, Tom

 

[thane]

Hit a local match and ask some shooters to let you take a look through their scopes, most will be glad to help.
Your eyes will let you know where the value is, not the abundance of internet opinions. If you can't see it don't take someone's word for it, inspect.

Bad news is when you look through a high end scope and really like it... hard to unknow.

 

[NAProf]

Hi Tom,
I agree with your perception that the "no use of scope turrets" in the Hunter Class make MRAD/MOA a moot point. Everyone just finds a reticle they like that allows them to use their dope to their best advantage.

I have an MOA scope that has hash marks in 1 MOA increments. It is a Second Focal Plane scope, so my dope is adjusted by 16/25 to use the reticle. This makes it most useful to me to only carry 1 decimal place in my dope. Then the KZ's are usually large enough that I can use a hash mark on the edge of the KZ to aim. That is a lot easier than trying to visually interpolate the difference between hash marks and put that spot on the KZ center (which is not easy to figure out after the target has shot 20 shooters).

As far as the Athlon vs the Hawke I can add my two cents. I bought a Hawke Sidewinder from a dealer and an Athlon Heras SPR 6-24x56 from Amazon with the expectation that I would be returning the Heras (which Amazon makes easy). I ended up keeping the Heras as it ranged better than the Sidewinder and I had the Sidewinder go haywire one day when I was shooting with the temp below freezing. All my range marks on the scope wheel were bad. Two days later, on a warmer day they were all back to good. That put me off on the Sidewinder (and probably, unfairly, on Hawke).

Cheers,
Greg

 

[EquivalentDelta]

I can’t comment on the Hawke, but I have a lot of trigger time behind Athlons on PBs. They are hard to beat in optical quality and turret clicks.

 

[cavedweller]

I’m relatively new to HFT and would appreciate help/suggestions purchasing a new scope. I currently have a .177 Daystate Revere with a Hawke Airmax 30 WA SF 6-24x50 Mrad. The rifle is great and I’m satisfied with the scope. HOWEVER, based on what I’ve read on this and other forums, I’m wondering if an Athlon Heras SFP 6-24x50 1/10 Mrad with the APRS7 reticle would be an improvement over the Hawke from a quality of optics standpoint? Or would I be just as well off or maybe better off, working on technique?
Another question. With the exception of the Hawke all the other scopes I own are MOA. I don’t currently shoot or plan to shoot NRL or other long range games. Since HFT limits a scope to 16x and does not allow clicking to adjust for range, doesn’t the difference between MOA and Mrad become a moot point? I’d appreciate your comments. Thanks, Tom

Athlons scopes range well and are repeatable but after 35 yards all Hft scopes are limited in ability by the 16x mag rule. You will want Scope Werks or JD Garland to make you a parallax wheel

 

[cavedweller]

Athlons scopes range well and are repeatable but after 35 yards all Hft scopes are limited in ability by the 16x mag rule. You will want Scope Werks or JD Garland to make you a parallax wheel

 

[JW.]

For HFT you'll want some kind of tree reticle for hold over and wind hold off. Athlon has super thin reticles on their SFP scopes (the only compliant I have heard of Athlon is this), their FFP reticles get larger when zoomed in so at 16x they are a little thicker than the SFP reticles.

I run several FFP Athlon scopes for PB's and I love them. Recently took a look through the Heras and Ares 15-60x scopes (SFP) and apart from the super thin reticle on both the Heras was good at 700 yards (similar to, but better than my 34x Athlon at 800 yards), the Ares was very, very nice (very little chromatic aberration). The ranging on the Heras was amazing at 60x, I tested it to 125 yards and it snapped nicely into focus at the same spot on the wheel. Overall both scopes felt a lot like a Sightron S3 and the old standard, Nikko Sterling 10-50x.

Don't Hawke scopes have temperature shifts when ranging in cold/hot conditions?

 

[cavedweller]

For HFT you'll want some kind of tree reticle for hold over and wind hold off. Athlon has super thin reticles on their SFP scopes (the only compliant I have heard of Athlon is this), their FFP reticles get larger when zoomed in so at 16x they are a little thicker than the SFP reticles.

I run several FFP Athlon scopes for PB's and I love them. Recently took a look through the Heras and Ares 15-60x scopes (SFP) and apart from the super thin reticle on both the Heras was good at 700 yards (similar to, but better than my 34x Athlon at 800 yards), the Ares was very, very nice (very little chromatic aberration). The ranging on the Heras was amazing at 60x, I tested it to 125 yards and it snapped nicely into focus at the same spot on the wheel. Overall both scopes felt a lot like a Sightron S3 and the old standard, Nikko Sterling 10-50x.

Don't Hawke scopes have temperature shifts when ranging in cold/hot conditions?

All scopes can experience temperature shift in direct sunlight
reticle line thickness depends somewhat on the scope SFP generally appear thicker to me or the same throughout the magnification range whereas the FFP is thinner at low power and get larger and thicker as magnification is increased

 

[Ezana4CE]

Hi Tom,
I agree with your perception that the "no use of scope turrets" in the Hunter Class make MRAD/MOA a moot point. Everyone just finds a reticle they like that allows them to use their dope to their best advantage.

I have an MOA scope that has hash marks in 1 MOA increments. It is a Second Focal Plane scope, so my dope is adjusted by 16/25 to use the reticle. This makes it most useful to me to only carry 1 decimal place in my dope. Then the KZ's are usually large enough that I can use a hash mark on the edge of the KZ to aim. That is a lot easier than trying to visually interpolate the difference between hash marks and put that spot on the KZ center (which is not easy to figure out after the target has shot 20 shooters).

As far as the Athlon vs the Hawke I can add my two cents. I bought a Hawke Sidewinder from a dealer and an Athlon Heras SPR 6-24x56 from Amazon with the expectation that I would be returning the Heras (which Amazon makes easy). I ended up keeping the Heras as it ranged better than the Sidewinder and I had the Sidewinder go haywire one day when I was shooting with the temp below freezing. All my range marks on the scope wheel were bad. Two days later, on a warmer day they were all back to good. That put me off on the Sidewinder (and probably, unfairly, on Hawke).

Cheers,
Greg

@NAProf How do you know that the problem was your Hawke scope and not the lower ambient air temp affecting the compressed air in your airgun? It seems to me that If the issue remedied itself when the temp warmed up, it seems that your zero was accurate if you zeroed the scope in warmer weather.

 

[NAProf]

@NAProf How do you know that the problem was your Hawke scope and not the lower ambient air temp affecting the compressed air in your airgun? It seems to me that If the issue remedied itself when the temp warmed up, it seems that your zero was accurate if you zeroed the scope in warmer weather.

Hi Ezana4CE,
I think I did not explain myself very well. I noticed the problem because I was practicing for Field Target (Hunter Class). I have a bunch of targets set up at a variety of ranges on tree, posts stumps, etc that I practice ranging before shooting. It was not the shooting part that was the problem, it was the ranging part. I have very carefully measured and recorded the ranges to all the targets from my two shooting positions. That way I can keep practicing my ranging until I get it right - before shooting.

I expect that what happened is the low temperature caused a component of the scope's parallax adjustment system became affected. All my ranges were off significantly. I should also say that when this happened, I got out my other two rifles with different scopes and tried the same thing. I left them outside for an hour and then range with them. Both rifles, one with the Heras SPR 6-24x56 and the other with a Falcon X50FT 10-50x60 did not experience a ranging problem.

The obvious conclusion is that some part in the mechanical part of the Hawk system changed length or shape enough to affect the parallax adjustment.

Cheers,
Greg

 

[Ezana4CE]

Hi Ezana4CE,
I think I did not explain myself very well. I noticed the problem because I was practicing for Field Target (Hunter Class). I have a bunch of targets set up at a variety of ranges on tree, posts stumps, etc that I practice ranging before shooting. It was not the shooting part that was the problem, it was the ranging part. I have very carefully measured and recorded the ranges to all the targets from my two shooting positions. That way I can keep practicing my ranging until I get it right - before shooting.

I expect that what happened is the low temperature caused a component of the scope's parallax adjustment system became affected. All my ranges were off significantly. I should also say that when this happened, I got out my other two rifles with different scopes and tried the same thing. I left them outside for an hour and then range with them. Both rifles, one with the Heras SPR 6-24x56 and the other with a Falcon X50FT 10-50x60 did not experience a ranging problem.

The obvious conclusion is that some part in the mechanical part of the Hawk system changed length or shape enough to affect the parallax adjustment.

Cheers,
Greg

@NAProf Thanks for elaborating. I may have misunderstood a portion of your initial explanation.

 

[steve123]

I'd go for that Heras SFP 6-24 or the FFP Ares BTR G3 2.5-15.

The reticle in this Ares is THICKER than most FFP scopes and the quality is outstanding.
It likely ranges as good at 15x as most scopes do and the IQ is nice.
It's a higher grade scope than the Heras line too (since I have a 2-12 and a 4-20 to compare with) and well you get the picture.
I haven't been this impressed with a scope in a long time!

 

[JackHughs]

I’m relatively new to HFT and would appreciate help/suggestions purchasing a new scope. I currently have a .177 Daystate Revere with a Hawke Airmax 30 WA SF 6-24x50 Mrad. The rifle is great and I’m satisfied with the scope. HOWEVER, based on what I’ve read on this and other forums, I’m wondering if an Athlon Heras SFP 6-24x50 1/10 Mrad with the APRS7 reticle would be an improvement over the Hawke from a quality of optics standpoint? Or would I be just as well off or maybe better off, working on technique?
Another question. With the exception of the Hawke all the other scopes I own are MOA. I don’t currently shoot or plan to shoot NRL or other long range games. Since HFT limits a scope to 16x and does not allow clicking to adjust for range, doesn’t the difference between MOA and Mrad become a moot point? I’d appreciate your comments. Thanks, Tom

HI,

I don't shoot HFT so I know nothing of the rules. You say that HFT limits the scope to 16x but you are considering the purchase of a 6x24x scope. Is that allowed?

JackHughs

 

[NAProf]

HI,

I don't shoot HFT so I know nothing of the rules. You say that HFT limits the scope to 16x but you are considering the purchase of a 6x24x scope. Is that allowed?

JackHughs

Hi Jack!
Yes, it is allowed. You want a scope with higher magnification because any variable magnification scope is a compromise on clarity vs magnification. The image will become darker and less clear the closer you come to the max magnification. the 6-24x scope is a great compromise as it will allow you to use if for woods walking (short ranges) while still being able to give a decent sight picture at 100+ yards.

The trick with Field Target Hunter Class (as opposed to European Hunter Field Target) is that the ranges to the targets are unknown and you cannot use any sort of external range finder. Most folks use the parallax wheel to get a really sharp focus on a target at a known range and mark their parallax wheel (thus the large diameter wheels for more precision) so that later they can look at the wheel to tell the range of a target they just focused on.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Greg

 

[JackHughs]

Hi Jack!
Yes, it is allowed. You want a scope with higher magnification because any variable magnification scope is a comprimise on clarity vs magnification. The image will become darker and less clear the closer you come to the max magnification. the 6-24x scope is a great comprimise as it will aloow you to use if for woods walking (short ranges) while still being able to give a decent sight picture at 100+ yards.

The trick with Field Target Hunter Class (as opposed to European Hunter Field Target) is that the ranges to the targets are unknown and you cannot use any sort of external range finder. Most folks use the parallax wheel to get a really sharp focus on a target at a known range and mark their parallax wheel (thus the large diameter wheels for more precision) so that later they can look at the wheel to tell the range of a target they just focused on.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Greg

Thanks Greg. That is a very helpful explanation. I'm still curious though - how is the 16 power rule enforced?

JackHughs

 

[thane]

Prior to match start each HFT competitor aims at a 1 foot by 1 foot target with 1 inch grid. A digital photo is taken of grid at the eyepiece beside the scope- 1x. Locking the camera settings a second photo of the grid is taken through the scope set at 16x. Crop the 16x photo to the nearest whole inch grid in the center 50% of scope image, take note of the number of pixels. Crop the unmagnified image to the same grid points. Divide the 16x photo pixel count by the 1x pixel count, the result is the power, adjust power until a true 16x is made... A wax seal is placed on the power collar and fixed with the match director's signet ring, certified for competition.

...not happening, we are sportsmen self imposing most of the requirements. A cheated win is hollow.

 

[Franklink]

.....A cheated win is hollow.

1000x

 

[Camber314]

Thanks Greg. That is a very helpful explanation. I'm still curious though - how is the 16 power rule enforced?

JackHughs

per AAFTA rules: any shooter who notices his shooting partnersuse a scope magnification greater than 16x are, by rule, allowed to choose between a) a vigorous wedgie applied to the offending shooter, or b) a properly moistened pinkie applied in the ear of the offending shooter. Pretty much takes care of that.

 

[cavedweller]

per AAFTA rules: any shooter who notices his shooting partnersuse a scope magnification greater than 16x are, by rule, allowed to choose between a) a vigorous wedgie applied to the offending shooter, or b) a properly moistened pinkie applied in the ear of the offending shooter. Pretty much takes care of that.

I have heard via an old timer that at least one Hft competitor was permanently escorted off the course when it was discovered that he had modified the magnification ring to indicate a lower mag than he was actually using… sigh…..
As I understand it you can lower your magnification for standing or kneeling shots and then return it to 16X after but you must announce your intention

 

[Ezana4CE]

I have heard via an old timer that at least one Hft competitor was permanently escorted off the course when it was discovered that he had modified the magnification ring to indicate a lower mag than he was actually using… sigh…..
As I understand it you can lower your magnification for standing or kneeling shots and then return it to 16X after but you must announce your intention

Makes me wonder if guy like that has probably been cheating since grade school.